Toriyama's Statement On the SSJ Multiplier.

[theherodjl]

If I recall he stated that he personally thought SSJ was more along the lines of a 10x increase from his base rather than a 50x increase, though it this were true then that means Goku was only as powerful as his Kaio-ken x10 self against Freeza which wouldn't of done anything according to the numbers. However, do you suppose this implies that Freeza after being hit head on by the Genki Dama, was injured enough to the point that his power dropped to the level comparable to the previously-useless Kaio-ken x10?
In the future, Trunks does state that Goku defeated Freeza yet again along with his father but do you suppose it might be possible that Goku sensed Freeza being in a suppressed state and took the opportunity to use a hypothetical x10 SSJ increase and kill him before he had the chance to power up? The same could be said for Trunks when he killed Freeza and Cold before either of them could make any significant move, was Toriyama's initial estimate of a x10 increase really too low in a far-fetched sense to work in the story?

[Hitiro]

What he said was that the number seemed pretty large and at the time he drew it with 10x what Goku had been up until that point. He also said this pretty much 10 years after the chapter so it is likely he forgot a great deal. He probably forgot all about Goku actively using Kaioken x10. And if he drew SSJ with it being 10x what it had been up till then, because Goku was actively using Kaioken x 10, then Goku would actually be 100x his base power.

[Truhan]

This is why authors work in tandem with the editors, to keep things consistent, and it should inspire us to do the same as fans. There's so much material that is taken for granted that keeps Dragon Ball inconsistent with itself... Suddenly, I don't think the Daizenshuu and the other guides are that bad, but they also need some updating.

[rereboy]

If I recall he stated that he personally thought SSJ was more along the lines of a 10x increase from his base rather than a 50x increase, though it this were true then that means Goku was only as powerful as his Kaio-ken x10 self against Freeza which wouldn't of done anything according to the numbers. However, do you suppose this implies that Freeza after being hit head on by the Genki Dama, was injured enough to the point that his power dropped to the level comparable to the previously-useless Kaio-ken x10?
In the future, Trunks does state that Goku defeated Freeza yet again along with his father but do you suppose it might be possible that Goku sensed Freeza being in a suppressed state and took the opportunity to use a hypothetical x10 SSJ increase and kill him before he had the chance to power up? The same could be said for Trunks when he killed Freeza and Cold before either of them could make any significant move, was Toriyama's initial estimate of a x10 increase really too low in a far-fetched sense to work in the story?

His statement only means that he wasn't paying that much attention to the numbers and how they added up. That's why it felt to him like it was like a 10x increase. However, if we play close attention to the numbers, namely Goku's x20 Kaioken, Freeza's 50% power and so on, it seems clear that a mere 10 times increase wouldn't add up.

[Kaboom]

His statement only means that he wasn't paying that much attention to the numbers and how they added up. That's why it felt to him like it was like a 10x increase. However, if we play close attention to the numbers, namely Goku's x20 Kaioken, Freeza's 50% power and so on, it seems clear that a mere 10 times increase wouldn't add up.

This is precisely the way I see it. Toriyama's not saying, "as the author, I decree that I only ever meant for Super Saiyan to be a 10x increase, so don't believe the lies about 50x they'll try to feed you in this very same set of books (the SEG)." No, it really seems to me like he's just saying, "it's 50x, but that's a really big number that's hard to visualize, and it felt more like only 10x to me as I drew it."

[theherodjl]

If I recall he stated that he personally thought SSJ was more along the lines of a 10x increase from his base rather than a 50x increase, though it this were true then that means Goku was only as powerful as his Kaio-ken x10 self against Freeza which wouldn't of done anything according to the numbers. However, do you suppose this implies that Freeza after being hit head on by the Genki Dama, was injured enough to the point that his power dropped to the level comparable to the previously-useless Kaio-ken x10?
In the future, Trunks does state that Goku defeated Freeza yet again along with his father but do you suppose it might be possible that Goku sensed Freeza being in a suppressed state and took the opportunity to use a hypothetical x10 SSJ increase and kill him before he had the chance to power up? The same could be said for Trunks when he killed Freeza and Cold before either of them could make any significant move, was Toriyama's initial estimate of a x10 increase really too low in a far-fetched sense to work in the story?

His statement only means that he wasn't paying that much attention to the numbers and how they added up. That's why it felt to him like it was like a 10x increase. However, if we play close attention to the numbers, namely Goku's x20 Kaioken, Freeza's 50% power and so on, it seems clear that a mere 10 times increase wouldn't add up.

That seemingly would be the case, however taking into account how much damage Freeza took and his possible exhaustion at this point from the Kaio-Ken x20 and the Genki Dama, could it be possible that maybe Freeza had dropped considerable enough power that Toriyama's original idea that SSJ being closer to a x10 increase might work?
ROF confirms that Freeza wasn't the training sort of fighter his whole life until the movie's events, in either case when Freeza powered up to his full strength he quickly lost such power because it would seem he doesn't concentrate on improving his stamina and just believes strength & speed is all that is required. Could it be possible that even in his lower levels of power that his stamina doesn't last very long either and that's why he transformed and powered up more so that he wouldn't reach a point in which Vegeta, Krillin, Gohan, Piccolo, and Goku could match him in his weaker states, despite initially believing such forms would be all he needed to destroy them all?

[Truhan]

Freeza was damaged, but so was Goku before turning SSJ. If both SSJ and Freeza's power up replenished their stamina by multiplying their attribute along with the others, then the only thing that cost them was ki. While Goku increases his strength 50 fold, Freeza doubles his.

[Hitiro]

Freeza was damaged, but so was Goku before turning SSJ. If both SSJ and Freeza's power up replenished their stamina by multiplying their attribute along with the others, then the only thing that cost them was ki. While Goku increases his strength 50 fold, Freeza doubles his.

SSJ increases your battle power(ki) by 50x which amplifies your stats. Unless he recovered from his damage then his Ki should remain the same. The battle was so close on Namek because Goku didn't have his full power though. Because Trunks pretty much destroyed a powered up Mecha Freeza and then Goku returns without any increase in strength because he spent his whole time learning the Yardratian teleport. Yet he could still keep up with Trunks and I would say that even though they were both not giving it their all Goku was more impressive.

[ekrolo2]

They're both smashed to pieces by the time Goku turns SSJ which to me implies neither of them was at a 150 million or 120 million respectively. There's just no way Goku is still at a 3 million base after firing a Spirit Bomb and using an x20 Kaio-ken and I doubt Freeza just tanked the Spirit Bomb without losing a considerable amount of power, he even admitted he thought it was gonna kill him there.

Either that or, SSJ just gives you a gargantuan reservoir of energy to draw from upon transforming that just skyrockets your power into the hundreds of millions regardless of your actual base.

[Truhan]

ekrolo, their strength remains, because their bodies are still the same. The only thing they can't do is output even more power to become stronger, faster and more enduring if their Ki has been depleted. It would be preposterous to consider that transforming suddenly refills your Ki, because later transformations would be much more useful than the ones you already mastered. Why do you think Goku reverted to base when trying to power up his SSJ3 state? (he depleted his Ki in the process).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama made this statement 18 years after Goku became a Super Saiyan. Toriyama's manga is very consistent when it comes to battle powers (not talking about the numbers, but power differences in general), so I find it hard to believe that he wasn't paying attention to Kaio-ken. So personally, I believe that Toriyama misremembered the Oozaru multiplier as the SS multiplier after all these years. This is the same guy that had forgotten about SS2, and thought that SS3 was the SS2 form after all.

[ekrolo2]

ekrolo, their strength remains, because their bodies are still the same. The only thing they can't do is output even more power to become stronger, faster and more enduring if their Ki has been depleted. It would be preposterous to consider that transforming suddenly refills your Ki, because later transformations would be much more useful than the ones you already mastered. Why do you think Goku reverted to base when trying to power up his SSJ3 state? (he depleted his Ki in the process).

Except that power is directly related to your well, battle power. After using the x20 Kaio-ken Kamehameha, Goku's ki stated to have shrunk and since the Kaio-ken is murder on your body, that's an added layer of his base getting depleted. Freeza also took enough damage from the Bomb to think he was actually going to die. My point is, the Namek battle powers of a 120 million and a 150 million don't make a lick of sense and those likely weren't their actual ones during combat.

[Truhan]

Except that power is directly related to your well, battle power. After using the x20 Kaio-ken Kamehameha, Goku's ki stated to have shrunk and since the Kaio-ken is murder on your body, that's an added layer of his base getting depleted. Freeza also took enough damage from the Bomb to think he was actually going to die. My point is, the Namek battle powers of a 120 million and a 150 million don't make a lick of sense and those likely weren't their actual ones during combat.

Perhaps Kaioken, like Grade II SSJ, takes a hit on your endurance when it only fuels strength and speed, which seemed more apparent in his battle against Vegeta. It's inconsistent with what happened against Freeza though. He seemed perfectly balanced, and his power increased, which means that only his Ki dropped. If that Ki allows him to heal quickly, then Goku getting his body "tore apart" is explained, but SSJ should be not that different than Kaioken. In the end, Akira Toriyama did not place much thought into this as we do.

[Neon Z]

Toriyama made this statement 18 years after Goku became a Super Saiyan. Toriyama's manga is very consistent when it comes to battle powers (not talking about the numbers, but power differences in general), so I find it hard to believe that he wasn't paying attention to Kaio-ken. So personally, I believe that Toriyama misremembered the Oozaru multiplier as the SS multiplier after all these years. This is the same guy that had forgotten about SS2, and thought that SS3 was the SS2 form after all.

He's consistent about the relative battle powers, but something that's especially obvious after the debut of SSJ is that the he wasn't very consistent about the actual absolute escalation of these powers. What was drawn in the Cell Saga, which suffers the most from this, isn't visually different from battles in the Freeza arc. I see that statement about 10x from him in this context - it's the reason that most battles in the Cell Saga don't look to be visually above the previous ones, since he's drawing SSJ as a 10x power up, even if storywise it should be 50x (and that's before all the new SSJ variations).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Toriyama made this statement 18 years after Goku became a Super Saiyan. Toriyama's manga is very consistent when it comes to battle powers (not talking about the numbers, but power differences in general), so I find it hard to believe that he wasn't paying attention to Kaio-ken. So personally, I believe that Toriyama misremembered the Oozaru multiplier as the SS multiplier after all these years. This is the same guy that had forgotten about SS2, and thought that SS3 was the SS2 form after all.

He's consistent about the relative battle powers, but something that's especially obvious after the debut of SSJ is that the he wasn't very consistent about the actual absolute escalation of these powers. What was drawn in the Cell Saga, which suffers the most from this, isn't visually different from battles in the Freeza arc. I see that statement about 10x from him in this context - it's the reason that most battles in the Cell Saga don't look to be visually above the previous ones, since he's drawing SSJ as a 10x power up, even if storywise it should be 50x (and that's before all the new SSJ variations).

But it's not like the x50 multiplier doesn't work in the Cell arc. In fact, looking at the Cell & Boo arcs only, the multipliers for all SS forms could be anything. The Freeza arc, however, shows that it's something above x40.

[yamu]

It's one of those times where I really wish I could take the author's word as law, but as others have already pointed out, in the context of the Freeza fight it just doesn't make much sense. The use of Kaioken earlier pretty much seals the deal for me. Although I believe AT just interpreted a 10x boost as "really big" and not a specific number.

[theherodjl]

Toriyama made this statement 18 years after Goku became a Super Saiyan. Toriyama's manga is very consistent when it comes to battle powers (not talking about the numbers, but power differences in general), so I find it hard to believe that he wasn't paying attention to Kaio-ken. So personally, I believe that Toriyama misremembered the Oozaru multiplier as the SS multiplier after all these years. This is the same guy that had forgotten about SS2, and thought that SS3 was the SS2 form after all.

He's consistent about the relative battle powers, but something that's especially obvious after the debut of SSJ is that the he wasn't very consistent about the actual absolute escalation of these powers. What was drawn in the Cell Saga, which suffers the most from this, isn't visually different from battles in the Freeza arc. I see that statement about 10x from him in this context - it's the reason that most battles in the Cell Saga don't look to be visually above the previous ones, since he's drawing SSJ as a 10x power up, even if storywise it should be 50x (and that's before all the new SSJ variations).

But it's not like the x50 multiplier doesn't work in the Cell arc. In fact, looking at the Cell & Boo arcs only, the multipliers for all SS forms could be anything. The Freeza arc, however, shows that it's something above x40.

It possibly couldn't be, Toriyama's statement can be construed as being genuinely closer to 10x than 50x after all in the sense that maybe it was more along the lines of 11x through 29x at most which works for me.

[miguelnuva1]

It always sounded to me like Toriyama was saying 10x what Goku had been up to then which means 10x Kaioken x20 or x10 instead of simply 50x base.

[Tsufuru]

100% frieza would have destroyed ssj goku.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It possibly couldn't be, Toriyama's statement can be construed as being genuinely closer to 10x than 50x after all in the sense that maybe it was more along the lines of 11x through 29x at most which works for me.

How would this work? Kaio-ken x20 Goku was at most as strong as 50% Freeza. Since 100% Freeza is twice stronger than 50% Freeza, and SS Goku is stronger than 100% Freeza, SS Goku must be more that twice stronger than KKx20 Goku, meaning that the multiplier of SS must be over x40.

It always sounded to me kike Toriyama was saying 10x what Goku had been up to then which means 10x Kaioken x20 or x10 instead of simply 50x base.

Ι can't see it like that, this would make the multiplier x100 or x200, and the difference between SS Goku & Full Power Freeza wasn't shown to be that huge, not to mention that this would make the multiplier much bigger than x50, and Toriyama said that the x50 sounded too big.