What level is Vegito?.....

[Hitiro]

You're totally wrong. Freeza use telekinesis to move object. he use it in his kienzan Goku don't have telekinesis power.

That is debatable whether he used psychic power or not. He may well have done. But regardless. We also have Kuririn and Yamcha both manipulating Ki blasts in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai when they don't show the ability to sense Ki till the Saiyan arc. And about Goku and Master Roshi manipulating their Kamehameha's during the early tournaments before learning to Ki sense? Do they all have telekinesis now?

[GTX]

Cell demonstrates telekinesis which he inherited from Frieza. Using it to construct the Cell Games Arena from rock, and later he uses it to control his Death

[Hitiro]

Cell demonstrates telekinesis which he inherited from Freeza. Using it to construct the Cell Games Arena from rock, and later he uses it to control his Death

This has nothing to do with the other 4 characters who manipulated Ki without Ki sensing abilities at the time.

[GTX]

Cell demonstrates telekinesis which he inherited from Freeza. Using it to construct the Cell Games Arena from rock, and later he uses it to control his Death

This has nothing to do with the other 4 characters who manipulated Ki without Ki sensing abilities at the time.

You make no sense.
They don't show it because they just don't tell them or whatever anything. or simply they all can sense ki of himself but only some people can sense other sort of. You also not cooperated enough to state citation link. I have clearly won this argument. I also think this is enough. It is dragging.

[Hitiro]

You make no sense. You also very lazy to state citation link. I have won this argument. I also think this is enough. It is dragging.

I don't know how I don't make sense, it is pretty clear. We have 4 other characters manipulating Ki without Ki sensing. I shouldn't have to state a citation link. But I'll humour you. The Kamehameha's being manipulated by Goku are in the anime so I'm not going to bother searching for them. Goku did it at Muscle Tower twice, once against the Ninja guy and the other time was outside while he was fighting to get there. Master Roshi does one in the 22nd Budokai against Tsuru-sennin to send him away.

Spoiler:

It would have had to been manipulated otherwise if it were straight it would have hit the crowd too. The other instances are Kuririn and Yamcha, which are here:

Spoiler:

Also there is the fact that while Freeza couldn't sense Ki, even if he was using telekinesis, he still controlled the Kienzan from behind him in the images I provided. He didn't have to see the Kienzan to know where to move it to while retrieving it back to above his palm. So Ki sensing is not a necessary requirement for a character to manipulate Ki in any way. Whether they can see the attack or not. Even Yamcha proves this with his Soukidan where he still hits Kami even though he can't see it.

[TripleRach]

You make no sense.
They don't show it because they just don't tell them or whatever anything. or simply they all can sense ki of himself but only some people can sense other sort of. You also not cooperated enough to state citation link. I have clearly won this argument. I also think this is enough. It is dragging.

If someone doesn't make sense to you, the polite thing would be to ask them for further clarification.

But if you feel like you're already finished with an argument, you can just step away and leave it at that. Other people can continue discussing the topic until they grow tired of it themselves, as long as we're all civil about it.

[GTX]

You make no sense.
They don't show it because they just don't tell them or whatever anything. or simply they all can sense ki of himself but only some people can sense other sort of. You also not cooperated enough to state citation link. I have clearly won this argument. I also think this is enough. It is dragging.

If someone doesn't make sense to you, the polite thing would be to ask them for further clarification.

But if you feel like you're already finished with an argument, you can just step away and leave it at that. Other people can continue discussing the topic until they grow tired of it themselves, as long as we're all civil about it.

You know how many time i ask for citation verification and get ignored?
I did ask for clarification/ citation link for the translation of the said book and the detail of the book but it's ignored.
I did ask the citation for freeza cannot sense ki it get ignored too, etc .
He did not give clear source and confirmation from most of his significant claims.
I feel he is not cooperated to try to be clear. no offense but it need to be said isn't it?

[Hitiro]

You know how many time for citation verification and get ignored?
I did ask for clarification for the translation of the said book and the detail of the book but it's ignored.
I did ask the citation for freeza cannot sense ki it get ignored too, etc .
He did not give clear source and confirmation from most of his significant claims.
I feel he is not cooperated to try to be clear. no offense but it need to be said isn't it?

You need to get your eyes checked I provided you with every material you asked for. You however have only spouted theories and have provided no actual discernible facts to back up your claims. Stop making up stuff and lying. You asked for citations. I provided you with scans from the actual manga and translated dialogue from Herm's Strength Checker. Also urls to information on this site about other relevant sources. I also don't even know why you would lie about this stuff because it's not like TripleRach or anybody else can't look at the last page and see that you're lying either. It's literally like shooting somebody in front of a bunch of people and saying "I didn't shoot him/her."

[GTX]

You know how many time for citation verification and get ignored?
I did ask for clarification for the translation of the said book and the detail of the book but it's ignored.
I did ask the citation for freeza cannot sense ki it get ignored too, etc .
He did not give clear source and confirmation from most of his significant claims.
I feel he is not cooperated to try to be clear. no offense but it need to be said isn't it?

You need to get your eyes checked I provided you with every material you asked for. You however have only spouted theories and have provided no actual discernible facts to back up your claims. Stop making up stuff and lying. You asked for citations. I provided you with scans from the actual manga and translated dialogue from Herm's Strength Checker. Also urls to information on this site about other relevant sources.

You might be right. i remember there is url but show nothing. I see literally nothing in my browser until now probably it's blocked. Still i cannot see anything until now.
oh well i check consider it's clear. i back my claim actualy in episode 12 it's very clear when goku reacting to his dragon ki and the original goku ki also react to it. He control the dragon ki even without looking back. Oh wel i'm tired consider it's my mistake and be done with it.

[Hitiro]

You might be right. i remember there is url but show nothing. I see literally nothing in my browser until now probably it's blocked. Still i cannot see anything until now.

I don't see how the url would be blocked seeing as it is from within the same domain name of a link you posted to try and discredit me. You literally linked http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2013/11/06/dr ... s-release/ which means you must be able to view the link http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/film-comics/. Literally if you can see the first link, which you yourself posted, then you must be able to see the link I posted. Also that doesn't change the fact that I have posted other information. Several scanned pages in fact, of all the feats which show Ki manipulation with characters who either don't have Ki sensing yet or don't have Ki sensing at all. Unless you have something wrong with your computer there is no reason for why you shouldn't be able to see the scans.

[GTX]

You might be right. i remember there is url but show nothing. I see literally nothing in my browser until now probably it's blocked. Still i cannot see anything until now.

I don't see how the url would be blocked seeing as it is from within the same domain name of a link you posted to try and discredit me. You literally linked http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2013/11/06/dr ... s-release/ which means you must be able to view the link http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/film-comics/

I can see the link but i cannot see any image. i literally see no image until now. in this thread of course

That just a picture i need the translation of said book i have given my link. i actually posted that first the former link one .

[Hitiro]

You might be right. i remember there is url but show nothing. I see literally nothing in my browser until now probably it's blocked. Still i cannot see anything until now.

I don't see how the url would be blocked seeing as it is from within the same domain name of a link you posted to try and discredit me. You literally linked http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2013/11/06/dr ... s-release/ which means you must be able to view the link http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/film-comics/

I can see the link but i cannot see any image. i literally see no image until now.

Frankly at this point I can't believe you any more. As they saying goes "you've cried wolf too many times." It seems like you're just a compulsive liar. If you really can't see the manga scans then prove it. Provide screenshots of what you're actually seeing because as far as I'm concerned you are not trustworthy at this point.

[GTX]

make no sense

I actually not try to be rude in this post just to know.

what is not to believe? where is the link of the translation of the guidebook?. stop making thing up and why i need to check the link that i have posted first. i need the detail of the book factually and the raw & translation of said book to be verified i have no need a vague picture certainly. i see only image in your latest posting just to know.

Telekinesis even if they cannot sense ki their telekinesis can sense it as an object. as long they can catch it they can control it.

Code: Select all

Also there is the fact that while Freeza couldn't sense Ki, even if he was using telekinesis, he still controlled the Kienzan from behind him in the images I provided

I see no freeza in your pictures.

[Hitiro]

what is not to believe? where is the link of the translation of the guidebook?. stop making thing up and why i need to check the link that i have posted first. i need the detail of the book factually and the raw & translation of said book to be verified i have no need a vague picture certainly. i see only image in your latest posting just to know.

You never asked for a translation of a guidebook. So why would I provide one? But if you want the information about the GT anime special comic then here is the raw exert about Super Vegetto being perhaps stronger than SSJ4.

Spoiler:

And here is confirmation from Herms who validated the translated text.

說不定比超級賽亞人4還要強！
"Perhaps even stronger than Super Saiyan 4!"

What book is that from?
Edit: Apparently it's the anime comics edition of the GT special.

Though Herms pointed out that this is in Chinese and he has yet to see the anime comics edition of the GT special in Japanese because he hasn't bought it.

Telekinesis even if they cannot sense ki their telekinesis can sense it as an object. as long they can catch it they can control it.

Prove it? Citation please? You keep asking me for them. Provide your evidence. If you can't then your argument is null and void.

I see no freeza in your pictures,

Then you're a liar? Because this is literally on the previous page. http://snag.gy/MO1gK.jpg Unless you don't understand what a spoiler tab is, where you click the view button to show the images. But this should be common sense if you're on sites such as these. If you can work quotes you should be able to click on a spoiler tab to view its contents.

[LowRyder2005]

These are baseless assumptions to allow your theory to work. The Shunkan-Ido technique should be enough proof that Goku can't sense his own Ki. Because he literally says that the technique doesn't work unless he can sense a Ki.

Dang.

You were picture-perfect if not for this, which is semantics done wrong and basically irrelevant to the debate.
It's shown he has to use another person's ki as a "spatial point of reference" of the sort to know where to teleport. Of course, he can't and wouldn't use his ki as spatial reference - provided he could sense it, it's been more or less proved here that it's either really difficult to gauge your own ki accurately or not possible - because it would be like visualizing the place where he is currently standing: hence, it would make no sense as it wouldn't help him moving anywhere. Therefore it's not really proof of anything and unrelated because Goku would never use his own ki as reference to teleport in the same place. If you want to shoot something do you keep your eyes on the target or on your hand?

You're right on everything else and I think you already proved your point plenty, though. Hats off for humoring the other guy. Your patience is remarkable.

[dbgtFO]

I'm fairly confident that Goku did use teleportation to get out of the way of Kid Buu's blast, when he was about to throw the Genkidama, so he can teleport to his own ki?

[LowRyder2005]

I'm fairly confident that Goku did use teleportation to get out of the way of Kid Buu's blast, when he was about to throw the Genkidama, so he can teleport to his own ki?

Dunno, I suppose "teleporting to one's own ki" sounds like staying exactly in place to me. More or less, it appears you use an energy signature as a target and a technique to "hook that target" and move yourself where it is. If it works like a grappling hook, you wouldn't move an inch by targeting yourself. In theory, of course.
Makes more sense to me that he can teleport to places he can see without using ki as reference and just by concentrating (it happens pretty quickly,when he does, likewise he usually needs time to sense ki when he has to teleport). Or maybe he uses the opponent's ki/ his own ki as a target and/or can choose the spot within some meters. After all, Goku always teleports near the target, not in the exact same spot.

Anyway, the only teleporting technique which is expressly stated not to need an energy signature is Kibito's: in the manga he teleports everyone to the - allegedly empty - world of Kaioshins.

[Hitiro]

Dang.

You were picture-perfect if not for this, which is semantics done wrong and basically irrelevant to the debate.
It's shown he has to use another person's ki as a "spatial point of reference" of the sort to know where to teleport. Of course, he can't and wouldn't use his ki as spatial reference - provided he could sense it, it's been more or less proved here that it's either really difficult to gauge your own ki accurately or not possible - because it would be like visualizing the place where he is currently standing: hence, it would make no sense as it wouldn't help him moving anywhere. Therefore it's not really proof of anything and unrelated because Goku would never use his own ki as reference to teleport in the same place. If you want to shoot something do you keep your eyes on the target or on your hand?

You're right on everything else and I think you already proved your point plenty, though. Hats off for humoring the other guy. Your patience is remarkable.

Well we've seen Goku use his Shunkan-Ido to teleport to a relative position near the Ki source he's using to lock on to. The range has varied but he has shown to cover an incredible distance using the technique in the story. Prime examples are teleporting to Kaio's world. He actually ended up a quarter of the planet away. Also against Beerus he teleported a good 50-100 metres away before he fired his Kamehameha.

So if he were to use the maximum range of the technique it would be useful. The Return if Cooler actually plays the technique off in this style. But the way Goku explains the technique suggests that he literally can't move from position A to position B without a Ki other than his own. Because he literally says he can't move to a place where he can't sense a Ki. Suggesting his own Ki can't be sensed. And as for the shooting analogy you would have to pay attention to both because lining up the gun is just as important.

I'm fairly confident that Goku did use teleportation to get out of the way of Kid Buu's blast, when he was about to throw the Genkidama, so he can teleport to his own ki?

Well Goku has shown a decent range on his teleport. He could have used Vegeta or Boo's Ki. Alternatively he could have also used the Ki blast or the Genki-Dama as a reference point for his teleportation. Doesn't necessarily indicate him using his own Ki. He could have also just sidestepped really fast. In the Freeza arc when Freeza sees the Genki-Dama he also pulls off a kind of on the spot teleport when he throws a punch. Not sure if that is in the manga though.

[Tectorman]

It's unclear whether his dodge against Kid Buu during the Genki Dama was a teleport or just a high speed dodge. Usually, we have either the two fingers on the forehead as a cue to the audience (kind of like Obiwan's finger wave while Mind Tricking), or it's otherwise indicated in the story that it's not just super-speed. But we've had those kinds of effect lines during a dodge since forever. Heck, we this during Yamcha's fight with a Saibaman.

The only indication, IMO, that his dodge around the Genki Dama might have been a teleport is Kid Buu's reaction to his blast missing. And I'm sure there's any number of ways to explain that.

[Speedster]

But the way Goku explains the technique suggests that he literally can't move from position A to position B without a Ki other than his own. Because he literally says he can't move to a place where he can't sense a Ki. Suggesting his own Ki can't be sensed.

You keep referencing Goku’s explanation of Shunkan-Ido but your premises and conclusion do not follow any logical structure making your argument a complete fallacy.

So let's set this straight starting with the basics. The Shunkan-Ido technique has a very simple general primary purpose – to move away from your own current position and go somewhere else. And you achieve this by sensing someone else's ki who is at a different spatial location and then teleport yourself to that location by locking to their ki.

Now why would Goku especially when he first ever described the technique have in mind to use Shunkan-Ido by sensing his own Ki? To go where? He would end up at exactly the same place something that would be completely pointless. Pointless? Well he could use it to disappear and re-appear for dodging purposes you might say ... as he did against Kid Buu I will say! What is more is that when he took Roshi's glasses he made a round trip and re-appeared at exactly the same location from where he left. In fact his presence was never shown to fade completely during that example. What happened there?

Well we've seen Goku use his Shunkan-Ido to teleport to a relative position near the Ki source he's using to lock on to. The range has varied but he has shown to cover an incredible distance using the technique in the story.

Yes it did vary. Goku almost had his head chopped by Gohan with the Z sword.

Prime examples are teleporting to Kaio's world. He actually ended up a quarter of the planet away. Also against Beerus he teleported a good 50-100 metres away before he fired his Kamehameha. So if he were to use the maximum range of the technique it would be useful. The Return if Cooler actually plays the technique off in this style.

So you try to suggest this.
Premise 1: Goku is shown that he can choose to re-enter the actual world (from the pocket dimension that he enters during Shunkan-Ido ) at a relative distance from his Ki target.
Premise 2: It would be useful during combat for Goku to disappear and re-enter at a point relative of his own Ki within a 50m radius.
Conclusion: Therefore he can't sense his own Ki.

Again a random conclusion. How can you tell that he cannot/doesn't do just this during combat? As already mentioned we do see him doing this against kid Buu who seemed surprised by how Goku dodged his blast without himself perceiving him and this was because Goku literally disappeared. But apart from this why would he WANT to use his own position as a reference point during combat? If he wants to land 50m away from Beerus he has to use Beerus' Ki as a reference point because beerus is moving as well. Unless of course he could land somewhere else and then outrun/outmanoeuvre Beerus in combat but it was exactly because he could NOT outrun/outmanoeuvre Beerus by normal means that he was forced to use the technique in the first place!

I agree that using Shunkan-Ido during combat requires him sensing his target precisely and choosing accordingly the point of re-entrance (as shown in movie 6 and as performed vs Cell, or vs Super Android 17). In any case however we don't know what Goku chooses as a target and how he uses this technique while fighting. It clearly depends on what he is trying to achieve. He might be sensing his opponent's or a third party's Ki or even his own. Of course anything can be argued that can be achieved by either way so the bottom line is that it is inconclusive. Which is exactly the reason why using Shunkan-Ido to "prove" that Goku cannot sense his own ki is a very weak argument.

And as for the shooting analogy you would have to pay attention to both because lining up the gun is just as important.

First he doesn't need to use his own ki as reference point because he very simply chooses to use the ki of others' as reference points. If anything if he were to have his own ki as a second reference point (to "line up" as you seem to suggest in your attempt to counter the shooting gun example) it would actually prove that he could sense his own Ki ... which is the very point you try to disprove in the first place.