Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[rereboy]

Before Buu appears inside his stomach:
- let us consider fusion, because we can't beat him like this if we go outside - the simplest explanation is that "this", at this point, doesn't refer to their size, but only their unfused state (when they are both SSJ). We don't need to go any more complex than this and mention their exclusive transformations, because they were not shown. Fusion is what Goku had in mind all along, which doesn't rule out that Goku could use SSJ3 and beat Super Buu, because by the time he realized that his power was scaled down, none of that would matter.

However, that's not what I was pointing out as you being wrong. It was the long running dogma that Goku had only been judging Buu by his Ki, when there is a blatant change of subject after he mentions that Buu "turned into an awfully bulky guy". You simply ignored that, and that's what confuses me.

It's not more complex to say that Goku was considering their top power when talking about how they couldn't handle Super Buu. That is actually the more natural and straightforward answer to Goku's intention in his sentence because it's the most consistent with how Goku and other characters operate and because Goku has no reason at all to limit his reasoning to anything less than his best. To assume that Goku was merely talking about the exact form in which they were necessarily means that Goku would exclude their top power from his reasoning without a clear reason for it, and that makes that assumption, not only less natural but also less straightforward.

And I don't think anyone is ignoring that Goku and Vegeta commented Kid Buu's look and body. People are just saying that they weren't optimistic just because of his look and size.

[Desassina]

It's not more complex to say that Goku was considering their top power when talking about how they couldn't handle Buu. That is the more natural answer to Goku's intention with his sentence. To assume that Goku was merely talking about the exact form in which they were necessarily means that Goku would exclude their top power from his reasoning without a clear reason for it, and that makes that assumption, not only less natural but also less straightforward.

Their top power wasn't considered when Goku shot Super Buu from the inside before he knew that his was scaled down. Fusion was all the talk, SSJ3 was not seen or mentioned any more than that. That's all.

[rereboy]

If a person just sticks to things that don't make sense to us (or make less sense), we just dismiss them just like I stated in my post, and state that as the reason for it. So, yeah, that's pretty much it.

Then I'll ignore what makes the least sense as well. The problem is that I can post my thoughts and I know that they won't go unquoted, but I don't have the patience to indulge in more of these discussions. People can't live without making the others seem wrong, and that's what sticks out in a rather "civilized" community. That's all.

What you call others "making people seem wrong" is simply them disagreeing with you. You either agree with them or not, you either think that make sense with what they are saying or not, and that's all. Becoming frustrated simply because people aren't agreeing with us is not anyone else's problem but our own. At most we can have an issue with the way people answer us, because it might be rude, and that's basically it.

It's not more complex to say that Goku was considering their top power when talking about how they couldn't handle Buu. That is the more natural answer to Goku's intention with his sentence. To assume that Goku was merely talking about the exact form in which they were necessarily means that Goku would exclude their top power from his reasoning without a clear reason for it, and that makes that assumption, not only less natural but also less straightforward.

Their top power wasn't considered when Goku shot Super Buu from the inside before he knew that his was scaled down. Fusion was all the talk, SSJ3 was not seen or mentioned any more than that. That's all.

Goku thought that his current form would be enough to blow a huge hole on Buu's body because he was unaware how being that little would affect his blast, only realizing it after he shot the blast. After realizing how much it had affected him, he had no reason to believe that SSJ3 would do much better so he had no reason to try it as SSJ3. As for why he still hadn't transformed into SSJ3 to face Super Buu's copy, we have seen multiple times that Goku hesitates before going into that form, leaving its use for when he really needs it, because it's not as efficient as the other forms. However, if Vegeta hadn't come up with the idea to remove Buu's pod, there is no reason to think that Goku wouldn't use his SSJ3 once they started to fight Super Buu's copy (they didn't actually fight the copy in the manga, I believe).

Also, purposely quoting me like that falls under the "being rude" way of responding.

[Darkprince410]

However, that's not what I was pointing out as you being wrong. It was the long running dogma that Goku had only been judging Buu by his Ki, when there is a blatant change of subject after he mentions that Buu "turned into an awfully bulky guy". You simply ignored that, and that's what confuses me.

All that he did there in saying that he turned into an awfully bulky guy is comment about his physical appearance. Nothing about that was a statement of his odds of beating that particular form of Buu or not, simply that he commented on him turning bulky. At no point has Goku ever shown though that he'll judge his capacity to take on an opponent based on their physical appearance if he's capable of sensing their ki. In his and Vegeta's statements regarding Pure Buu, only Vegeta's comment is established to be about Buu's physical size, because of the words used. Nothing about Goku's statement though points to him going off of Buu's appearance, and given that he's shown that he doesn't judge based on size if he can sense their ki, then it stands to reason that he isn't.

Likewise, Goku's statement is a follow up to what he initially commented before within Evil Buu's body. He commented that they were "almost there" in terms of weakening him to the point that they could do something, but his later comment confirms that Evil Buu was still too strong for them individually. Then, when he senses Pure Buu, he instantly comments "We did it!" and comments that they may now be able to do something. So, combining the two facts, and we have Goku indicating that they're almost there in making Evil Buu weak enough for them to do something with, but he's still too strong for them, but in turning him to Pure Buu, they've succeeded in getting him to the point that they may be able to do something, thus indicating a power decrease.

[Desassina]

Their top power wasn't considered when Goku shot Super Buu from the inside before he knew that his was scaled down. Fusion was all the talk, SSJ3 was not seen or mentioned any more than that. That's all.

Goku thought that his current form would be enough to blow a huge hole on Buu's body because he was unaware how being that little would affect his blast, only realizing it after he shot the blast. After realizing how much it had affected him, he had no reason to believe that SSJ3 would do much better so he had no reason to try it as SSJ3.

Sorry, but he could have gone SSJ3 and shot Super Buu, right there. He didn't, so it's not worth considering. The rest is just you agreeing with what I said.

As for why he still hadn't transformed into SSJ3 to face Super Buu's copy, we have seen multiple times that Goku hesitates before going into that form, leaving its use for when he really needs it, because it's not as efficient as the other forms.

So, he used it against Kid Buu, when it was really necessary. Fusion was around the corner, hence why he hesitated to go SSJ3 on him, according to you theory.

[Darkprince410]

Their top power wasn't considered when Goku shot Super Buu from the inside before he knew that his was scaled down. Fusion was all the talk, SSJ3 was not seen or mentioned any more than that. That's all.

Goku thought that his current form would be enough to blow a huge hole on Buu's body because he was unaware how being that little would affect his blast, only realizing it after he shot the blast. After realizing how much it had affected him, he had no reason to believe that SSJ3 would do much better so he had no reason to try it as SSJ3.

Sorry, but he could have gone SSJ3 and shot Super Buu, right there. He didn't, so it's not worth considering. The rest is just you agreeing with what I said.

As for why he still hadn't transformed into SSJ3 to face Super Buu's copy, we have seen multiple times that Goku hesitates before going into that form, leaving its use for when he really needs it, because it's not as efficient as the other forms.

So, he used it against Kid Buu, when it was really necessary. Fusion was around the corner, hence why he hesitated to go SSJ3 on him, according to you theory.

He used it against Pure Buu because he didn't think that fusing would be necessary. With Evil Buu, he made it clear that fusing, even if it had been with the Potaras if they still had them, was their only way of beating him without weakening him even further from that state. Super Saiya-jin 3 would have been pointless to use there because it would have been a waste of ki on an enemy that wouldn't have been defeated by it.

[Desassina]

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.5
Context: after Super Saiyan 3 Goku explains he needs to gather ki for 1 minute to defeat pure Boo
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.2
Context: before the battle with pure Boo
Elder Kaioshin: “…Hey…Give your Potara to Goku and Vegeta! If they merge again, then this should be an easy victory!”

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.5
Context: evil Boo confronts Goku and Vegeta.
Goku (talking to Vegeta): “Di-didn’t I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”

There's nothing conclusive about Potara being any better against Kid Buu or Super Buu. We just know that it would be easier for them against either one. It's that kind of boost in power, so I don't know what you're getting at. Likewise, Goku didn't just turn SSJ3 against Super Buu, he considered a shot as a SSJ, while against Kid Buu, he had to go all out from the start.

[rereboy]

Sorry, but he could have gone SSJ3 and shot Super Buu, right there. He didn't, so it's not worth considering. The rest is just you agreeing with what I said.

You mean the copy? Like I said, he would once they actually started fighting the copy. As we saw multiple times Goku only goes SSJ3 when he actually starts fighting against someone he really need to use that form. Goku doesn't really use that form while on "stand-by" like he often does with SSJ.

If you mean the Super Buu's actual body, I've already explained it. Goku wouldn't need SSJ3 to just blast a hole on Super Buu if being tiny hadn't affected him. But it had as he later realized, and since it affected him that much, SSJ3 wouldn't make much of a difference so he sees no point in it.

So, he used it against Kid Buu, when it was really necessary. Fusion was around the corner, hence why he hesitated to go SSJ3 on him, according to you theory.

Yes, he needed it to fight and stand a chance of killing Kid Buu. I don't think anyone has any doubts regarding that.

As for why they didn't use fusion instead, they explained it themselves. If they fused, it wouldn't be a challenge, so they refuse to fuse out of pride. However, they do so because they are optimistic regarding their chances. If they stood no chance, Goku would insist on fusing just like he did regarding Gohan-buu.

[Desassina]

If you mean the Super Buu's actual body, I've already explained it. Goku wouldn't need SSJ3 to just blast a hole on Super Buu if being tiny hadn't affected him. But it had as he later realized, and since it affected him that much, SSJ3 wouldn't make much of a difference so he sees no point in it.

He didn't know that his power was scaled down, but took a shot at him, anyway. Without going SSJ3 first, as a mere SSJ. Then, after he realized that his power was indeed scaled down, SSJ3 became useless. If I had to put it in a chain:

SSJ3 Goku > Super Buu > (tiny) SSJ3 Goku.

As for why they didn't use fusion instead, they explained it themselves. If they fused, it wouldn't be a challenge, so they refuse to fuse out of pride. However, they do so because they are optimistic regarding their chances. If they stood no chance, Goku would insist on fusing just like he did regarding Gohan-buu.

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

Pride, you got that right. That they were more hopeful is not the case. They wanted to fight with their own power, whatever that would mean, but I'm certain that Vegeta wouldn't stand a chance either way, "specially when things are so dangerous now [than they were before]". Buu being merged could be anything, so it's inconclusive.

[rereboy]

He didn't know that his power was scaled down, but took a shot at him, anyway.

Yes, because he didn't need SSJ3 to put a hole in a Buu. We saw multiple characters that stood no chance (as they were) agaisnt the version Buu they were facing, and that managed to put big holes on him, multiple times.

Without going SSJ3 first, as a mere SSJ. Then, after he realized that his power was indeed scaled down, SSJ3 became useless. If I had to put it in a chain:

SSJ3 Goku > Super Buu > (tiny) SSJ3 Goku.

Blasting a hole in a Buu is not the same as being comparable or stronger than that Buu so there's nothing in that segment to conclude that Goku is stronger than Super Buu. Given Goku's apprehension regarding fighting Super Buu and his statements regarding it, which were made before he realized how being tiny had affected him, the most natural conclusion is actually that Super Buu is stronger, not the other way around.

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”

Pride, you got that right. That they were more hopeful is not the case. They wanted to fight with their own power, whatever that would mean, but I'm certain that Vegeta wouldn't stand a chance either way, "specially when things are so dangerous now [than they were before]". Buu being merged could be anything, so it's inconclusive.

We have two identical situations, the only change is that in one we have Gohan-buu and in the other we have Kid Buu. Goku's attitude is different in this last one because he feels optimistic regarding facing Kid Buu. If he felt it was truly hopeless he would act just like he did regarding Gohan-buu where he was willing to even fuse with Mr Satan because he knew that he really had no chance agaisnt Gohan-buu. You are once again being too literal and not minding the context enough.

[MisterGuyMan]

Only Vegeta's comment can be attributed to his size. Not only would it be out of character for Goku to judge someone based on their physical appearance (if he can sense their ki), but his comment directly ties into what he commented on earlier when he and Vegeta were inside Buu, an earlier comment regarding Buu's strength and ki level.

Vegeta is talking about size. Goku is just talking about accomplishing something. Either way there's no evidence one way or another to any side.

The sentence doesn't include non-Saiyans. Doesn't matter if he might encounter #18 or Piccolo. The sentence is clear. even if nobody turns SSJ, he's still superior because everybody's on equal footing. That only refers to Saiyans, they're the only ones that can be included. Seriously, look at the question and look at the answer. It makes no sense that you choose to modify the actual meaning of the sentence to fit your agenda. Could you please also, show me the exact quote were Vegeta says "everyone should be ready for him".

The sentence is about Vegeta's supposed superiority. The context is regarding the tournament as a whole. You're basically saying that Vegeta still thinks he's superior to all the Saiyans even though he can get bounced in the first round now.

No, the Kaioshin said they should fight him together. This doesn't mean that the Kaioshin wanted help against Pui-Pui. The Kaioshin demonstrated time and again that he overestimated and underestimated people during this arc. Pui-Pui should be no exception. All this proves is that he thought Pui-Pui was something worse than he was. It's not uncommon given in this arc Trunks also mistakenly thought at one point Mr. Satan may be strong and just holding back. Trunks was going purely off of reputation at this point which is why he questioned if he was actually strong. If Mr. Satan didn't have the reputation as champ then Trunks would have just assumed he was weak.

You're ignoring the part where Kaio Shin can one shot Frieza AND how Kaio Shin's main goal is to avoid allowing any damage to the Saiyans. Simply put if he even suspects the Saiyans are on Frieza's level, they're worse than useless. The Saiyans would be a liability.

"Except Goku's goal was to decrease Boo's Ki. Goku says this "We did it!" Only after he reverts to Pure Boo. He had all the time in the world to say "We did it!" when they escaped Boo. Why is he randomly saying "We did it!" after Boo changed if it was about freeing the others? Furthermore he continued by saying "This way, we might be able to manage something." This clearly points to their goal of making Boo a more manageable foe. This is just a straw man argument really. It holds no basis. And contains no flow with the story if it were what you suggesting.

It's not clear at all. "We did it" literally can refer to anything. I hate to break it to you but just because you read it one way doesn't mean you can prove it to be the only true way. Also this:
(15) What is Majin Buu's power level?
- Giovanni Toso, London, England
Toriyama: The frightening thing about Majin Buu is his unknown, unfathomable power. Whether it's actually not that much, or whether it's really stupendous, Majin But himself probably doesn't know the answer.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=17921
This explains why it's always been so hard to correctly gauge Buu since the start of the arc all the way to his death. It also casts doubt to any statements on his power.

This is incorrect. As Kaio only sent the message to Earth. He asks Vegeta if he wants to send it to everyone in the universe to which Vegeta replies no. Yes, the Namekians and Enma Daio and his men do contribute but these two groups were specifically watching Goku anyway. Even with the energy from the Namekians and Enma Daio's group that doesn't make much of a difference. The Namekian's battle powers averaged out at 1,000 at best and there were only 100 of them 7 years ago. The population would not have increased that much in 7 years....Considering the Manga says otherwise and I have a sub saying that it was just the people of Earth and "beyond" that provided energy to the Super Genki Dama. Then this screencap means nothing. I would rather believe the manga plus the other sub as the other sub is more likely correct. Also Goku already stated that the energy from Gohan and the others wasn't even near enough to defeat Boo. The largest contribution game from the people of Earth which just goes to show how little a portion Genki makes up from Ki. Otherwise Gohan and the others should have had more than enough Genki to defeat Boo by themselves.

The point is that we don't know. You're acting like we do. So let's use the sub with the phrase "and beyond." So where does that leave us? Now add all the power Goku got from the other inatimate objects. Now what's the total after that?

For evidence to be useful it needs to prove something. We know so little of the Genki Dama, how much energy it collects, how it does so and how it affects a purely evil being like Buu.


[quote="Hitiro]I can say the same thing to you. Absence of Evidence. All we get here is Beerus saying Goku couldn't win. Prove that he was suppressed? Occam's razor my friend. The theory that makes the least assumptions is usually the correct one. You are making one more assumption than I am. And you're right that I'm saying we can't throw away lines. But every time a character's strength is stated we're told if they are suppressing or not in some way shape or fashion. Yet in this instance we are never told Goku is. Goku never retorts by saying this isn't his full strength either. Which is unlike Goku. Look at all throughout the manga. If you're going to say we can't throw lines out. Then you can't throw out the fact that these things are stated every time unless they aren't the case. In fact, a prime example is here....Ginyu says this is Goku's true power. But the author clarifies by saying that Goku is capable of much more than this. These points always get clarified. And characters always mention if they're holding back or not. Even in BoG Goku makes a point that he isn't fighting at full power. Only using 80% Beerus also says he isn't giving it his all. If Goku can defeat Freeza in base or he was suppressed at this moment in time then this is the first time the story has avoided giving us the information for clarification.[/quote]
Goku doesn't walk around his everyday life at full power. Your Ginyu example shows us how powered down Goku is usually. Pretty much any time Goku powers up proves he's holding back the rest of the time. The fact that he has two sons instead of killing Chi Chi in their intimate time proves he's holds back. Any panel where the Earth isn't shaking proves he's holding back. Plus this isn't my evidence so it doesn't even matter if I prove he was suppressed or not. If you want to cite this event then you need to prove Beers could sense Goku's base power to its full power. To do that you need to prove he wasn't suppressed.

Also proving that he can beat Frieza with or without SS is useless against Beers. Who cares? Frieza's small fry at this point. It's like bragging to Bill Gates that you have a hundred dollars in your bank account instead of just telling him you own a billion dollars worth of other investments. Your Ginyu example follows this too. Goku is referring to his full power. He doesn't go through each level of Kaio Ken he can do to prove each of those levels exist. This is the same way. Who cares what Goku can do at base at this point? Only his maximum power is relevant to the story. To me that scene was there to establish that Goku can transform and this this isn't his full power. That's it.

[Desassina]

@ rereboy

SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Super Buu out of the latter having powered up into Buff Buu and then shape shifted into Kid Buu. Context, provided by Kibitoshin in regards to both Kais having suppressed Kid Buu, helps the case where he actually gained more power by losing South Kaioshin's influence. However, I'm gonna let that slide, but the fact that he powered up from Super Buu is still present, and that's why Goku, out of having nearly matched Kid Buu as a SSJ3 and stating that he could beat him with full power, is stronger than Super Buu.

I just wanted to backtrack to the arguments that people seem to cling the most, to show that SSJ3 wasn't used post Vegetto's absorption, nor even mentioned. So, we can taper that chain down to Super Buu > (tiny) SSJ3 Goku, that it still helps my (or the manga and anime's) case. If you want a bit more context, consider the implications of Gohan being much stronger than SSJ3 Goku: Wrath of Dragon, an official movie, DB Super, a canon follow up, would all be wrong, and people criticizing them out of their favourite character not being the strongest rubs me in the wrong way.

[dbgtFO]

If you want a bit more context, consider the implications of Gohan being much stronger than SSJ3 Goku: Wrath of Dragon, an official movie, DB Super, a canon follow up would all be wrong, and people criticizing them out of their favourite character not being the strongest rubs me in the wrong way.

Toei already had everyone claiming Kid Buu is the strongest form of Buu, making Goku's fear of Gohan-Buu completely illogical, if he can beat a stronger form of Buu, so it's not surprising to see this line of logic in later productions.

[Desassina]

Toei already had everyone claiming Kid Buu is the strongest form of Buu, making Goku's fear of Gohan-Buu completely illogical, if he can beat a stronger form of Buu, so it's not surprising to see this line of logic in later productions.

Perhaps that's why Buutenks vs SSJ3 Goku was kept in Dragon Ball Kai, to correct that mess. Anyway, I want to apologyze to anyone who wanted this thread to be about Base Saiyans and Freeza. I won't discuss Buu related suff anymore in this thread. Sorry.

[Hitiro]

You're ignoring the part where Kaio Shin can one shot Freeza AND how Kaio Shin's main goal is to avoid allowing any damage to the Saiyans. Simply put if he even suspects the Saiyans are on Freeza's level, they're worse than useless. The Saiyans would be a liability.

I'm not ignoring any part. The simple fact is that the Kaioshin severely overestimated Babidi's henchmen and underestimated the Saiyans. And no if he suspects the Saiyans are weaker than Freeza but much stronger in their SSJ forms then they are not useless. The Kaioshin already knows that the Saiyans have incredible power as SSJ's. He just never knew how much or how their base forms compared.

It's not clear at all. "We did it" literally can refer to anything. I hate to break it to you but just because you read it one way doesn't mean you can prove it to be the only true way.

It is absolutely clear because it was Goku and Vegeta's intent to weaken Boo so that they could fight him. They already said this. They accomplished their goal. Hence the "We did it!" it can't refer to anything else unless you're going to convolute what he meant by accomplishing something.

Also this:
(15) What is Majin Buu's power level?
- Giovanni Toso, London, England
Toriyama: The frightening thing about Majin Buu is his unknown, unfathomable power. Whether it's actually not that much, or whether it's really stupendous, Majin But himself probably doesn't know the answer.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=17921
This explains why it's always been so hard to correctly gauge Buu since the start of the arc all the way to his death. It also casts doubt to any statements on his power.

Then why did Goku think he could beat him then? This is just Akira Toriyama's way of avoiding giving a concise answer. He is hardly going to give a specific number for Boo's power level and hazard at it being wrong. Look what happened in Battle of Gods, Freeza stated after 4 months of training he would have a power level of 1 million. No matter how you dice this that isn't a power increase that should scratch any of the characters who put up a fight in the Cell Games arc.

The point is that we don't know. You're acting like we do. So let's use the sub with the phrase "and beyond." So where does that leave us? Now add all the power Goku got from the other inatimate objects. Now what's the total after that?
For evidence to be useful it needs to prove something. We know so little of the Genki Dama, how much energy it collects, how it does so and how it affects a purely evil being like Buu.

The energy from the objects around them is insignificant compared to the entire human race. And it's not like he had that many objects around him at the time. The Kaioshin homeworld exists in a place by itself surrounded by several suns. That is it. In comparison Goku had to draw Genki from several planets to match Freeza and even that wasn't enough to defeat him. Boo is vastly stronger than Freeza so what he had around him would not have been enough.

Goku doesn't walk around his everyday life at full power. Your Ginyu example shows us how powered down Goku is usually.

The only time we know for a fact that he isn't at full power is in battle scenarios. And just because Goku holds back against his wife does not mean he has to suppress his battle power either. Characters have just restrained putting forth complete effort with their full battle power. SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games was a prime example of this.

Pretty much any time Goku powers up proves he's holding back the rest of the time. The fact that he has two sons instead of killing Chi Chi in their intimate time proves he's holds back. Any panel where the Earth isn't shaking proves he's holding back. Plus this isn't my evidence so it doesn't even matter if I prove he was suppressed or not. If you want to cite this event then you need to prove Beers could sense Goku's base power to its full power. To do that you need to prove he wasn't suppressed.

The only time we see him holding back is during battle and in-between battle sequences. There is actually no proof he is suppressing in his daily life. And if you want to say any panel where the Earth isn't shaking proves he's holding back then I'll just point you to any time he transforms without shaking the Earth. The Earth was shaking as far back as the Saiyan arc. So are you telling me that Goku and the others are not putting forth more than 4,000 as SSJ's now? Because both Goku and Vegeta power up as SSJ's and do it as SSJ2's without shaking the planet. So shaking the planet obviously has certain requirements. I've always seen it as a water hose with a tight nozzle. If the character isn't used to letting out that amount of power they are similar to a tight nozzle. Thus there is a lot of pressure on the water being exerted. If they are used to letting out that level of power then they are much looser so the transition is much smoother. And of course it is up to you to prove that what is said isn't a fact. Because all you've done is make assumptions. I'm just going with what is actually said in the story. Which is what people normally do. Unless there is something to prove that Goku can beat 100% Freeza in his base form then I would like to see it. But if there is not then there is no reason to refute what is said in the story. As I said on the previous page there is no need for the line if it is on about suppressed Goku anyway. Because it should be obvious to anyone that a suppressed character can be weaker than another. The line would serve no purpose. They put this line in for a reason. Like they put in every other line for a reason. There is an intent behind it. And there intent it to provide us with information we don't know.

Also proving that he can beat Freeza with or without SS is useless against Beers. Who cares? Freeza's small fry at this point. It's like bragging to Bill Gates that you have a hundred dollars in your bank account instead of just telling him you own a billion dollars worth of other investments. Your Ginyu example follows this too. Goku is referring to his full power. He doesn't go through each level of Kaio Ken he can do to prove each of those levels exist. This is the same way. Who cares what Goku can do at base at this point? Only his maximum power is relevant to the story. To me that scene was there to establish that Goku can transform and this this isn't his full power. That's it.

Going by your analogy then. There is no point in me telling this to Bill Gates, correct? It isn't going to change things or give him any relevant information. So it is the same for this line in the BoG movie and Dragon Ball Chou. There is no reason for Beerus to say this if it wasn't relevant information about the characters. And my Ginyu example doesn't follow this. Beccause Goku still points out he can further increase his strength. Yet he doesn't in this instance with Beerus. None of them allude to him being suppressed. None of them allude to Goku being able to beat 100% Freeza using his base form. If you really think this line is addressed to a suppressed Goku then by its very definition the line is contradictory to every other line of this nature. Because up until now they've always made a point of clarifying what they mean. SSJ3 Gotenks is also a prime example of this. Trunks says "He's almost as strong as our Gotenks!" if the information had been left at just this then people would conclude that Gohan is weaker than Gotenks. But Akira Toriyama further added a comment from Goten saying "No, he is stronger." to make it clear that Gohan is actually stronger than Gotenks.

[Kaboom]

As has been pointed out before, the direct statement from Beerus has no reason being in the film if it's not true. There were tons of times where it could have been contradicted or clarified if it meant anything less than that Goku without Super Saiyan is weaker than Freeza.

Goku could have thought to himself or proudly declared "I don't even need Super Saiyan to beat Freeza anymore, so wait 'til you see how strong I am when I do use it!" After Goku got his butt whooped, Kaio could have remarked "Goku was far stronger than Lord Beerus thought, but still no match for him at all." They could have simply had Goku power up in his base form before transforming and elicit a surprised remark from Beerus. Even farther back, they could have had Whis say "they increase their power through a technique called Super Saiyan, but they've become stronger than Freeza even without it."

But nope, nothing of the sort. You have a direct "A > B" statement made via observation and absolutely nothing to indicate that it's incorrect. If one assumes that it's incorrect anyway, then it no longer has any place being in the film at all and you've just created a hole in things. It means what it means.

[rereboy]

@ rereboy

SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Super Buu out of the latter having powered up into Buff Buu and then shape shifted into Kid Buu. Context, provided by Kibitoshin in regards to both Kais having suppressed Kid Buu, helps the case where he actually gained more power by losing South Kaioshin's influence. However, I'm gonna let that slide, but the fact that he powered up from Super Buu is still present, and that's why Goku, out of having nearly matched Kid Buu as a SSJ3 and stating that he could beat him with full power, is stronger than Super Buu.

When Super Buu powered up to Buff Buu, Goku got appropriately worried and surprised since his power was rising.

And when he then turned to Kid Buu, Goku got relaxed, even happy with the development, expressed confidence in being able to handle him (opposite to what he had expressed before regarding Super Buu), had a completely different attitude about fusing to face him compared to how he acted regarding Gohan-Buu, and even after fighting him extensively he never changed his mind about actually being able to kill him. Unless you think those are appropriate reactions for a Buu that hasn't powered down, the conclusion is not the one you state.

And Kibitoshin never claimed that any of the Kais had surpassed Buu at all, nor did he even mention that Kid Buu was the most powerful version, he just mentioned that he was the most troublesome due being less tamed than the other versions.

I just wanted to backtrack to the arguments that people seem to cling the most, to show that SSJ3 wasn't used post Vegetto's absorption, nor even mentioned. So, we can taper that chain down to Super Buu > (tiny) SSJ3 Goku, that it still helps my (or the manga and anime's) case. If you want a bit more context, consider the implications of Gohan being much stronger than SSJ3 Goku: Wrath of Dragon, an official movie, DB Super, a canon follow up, would all be wrong, and people criticizing them out of their favourite character not being the strongest rubs me in the wrong way.

So far you haven't stated any actually strong arguments against the arguments you criticize, imo. None of them make more sense and/or are more straightforward than the ones you criticize.

Also, all of the old movies are filler and have varying inconsistencies regarding the main series, including power inconsistencies, so there's no argument to be had based on those. As for Super, a while has passed since the end of the Buu saga and it has been mentioned on the series that Gohan has become pretty weak due to not training and not caring about training, to the point that even Piccolo is a better choice for the tournament between universes than Gohan is. Obviously this doesn't mean that Piccolo was a better choice in a fight than Gohan in the Buu saga so I fail to see how Gohan's portrayal in BOG/ROF/Super invalidates his portrayal in the Buu saga.

[Desassina]

I won't reply to that, because I already made my case, and I think it's rather senseless that you had to retort once more, knowing full well that I wouldn't reply (not now that I already apologized to everyone) and that speaks of a "I can't leave without the last word" attitude that wasn't really necessary.

Freeza is also stronger than the Base Saiyans, by the way, in case I missed the opportunity to contribute, because that's one of the few points in the material where such thing is stated, while throughout the manga/anime, we only believed that to be true.

[MisterGuyMan]

I'm not ignoring any part. The simple fact is that the Kaioshin severely overestimated Babidi's henchmen and underestimated the Saiyans. And no if he suspects the Saiyans are weaker than Freeza but much stronger in their SSJ forms then they are not useless. The Kaioshin already knows that the Saiyans have incredible power as SSJ's. He just never knew how much or how their base forms compared.

So you tell me not to ignore what the author states and here you are ignoring how the author stated Kaio Shin wanted help against Pui Pui and Yakon. Plus Dabura was instructed to take out all but the three most powerful guys and he takes out Piccolo who is above Frieza. Later Babidi and Dabura confirm that they have no idea about the SSJ transformations so it was just their base forms they were judging.

Those are judgements from Dabura and Kaio Shin. I'm not saying anything myself. There's no evidence to run contrary to any of that. It's one guy who is an expert pointing out the the base Saiyans can do stuff that a guy that can one shot frieza wants help against and another guy who IDs the three base Saiyans as being stronger than Piccolo who is in turn stronger than Frieza.

It is absolutely clear because it was Goku and Vegeta's intent to weaken Boo so that they could fight him. They already said this. They accomplished their goal. Hence the "We did it!" it can't refer to anything else unless you're going to convolute what he meant by accomplishing something.

It was also their intent to free the kids. You're basically just repeating what you think he meant. That means you can't prove it. That's my point. You tell me what you think he meant. I tell you what I think he meant. We get nowhere.

Then why did Goku think he could beat him then? This is just Akira Toriyama's way of avoiding giving a concise answer. He is hardly going to give a specific number for Boo's power level and hazard at it being wrong. Look what happened in Battle of Gods, Freeza stated after 4 months of training he would have a power level of 1 million. No matter how you dice this that isn't a power increase that should scratch any of the characters who put up a fight in the Cell Games arc.

Goku can think he can beat him. Buu's power is unknown and unfathomable. There's no contradiction. Again, I'm not just going to ignore this statement from Toriyama and neither should you honestly.

The energy from the objects around them is insignificant compared to the entire human race. And it's not like he had that many objects around him at the time. The Kaioshin homeworld exists in a place by itself surrounded by several suns. That is it. In comparison Goku had to draw Genki from several planets to match Freeza and even that wasn't enough to defeat him. Boo is vastly stronger than Freeza so what he had around him would not have been enough.

You're guessing again. You're arguing like we have an equation for how much the planet and stars can contribute. Moreover in the Buu arc, the humans, Namekians and Other World people gave up energy unto exhaustion. This isn't a normal Genki Dama because normally it usually only takes a little energy so the comparison with the one Frieza tanked is more than a little off. There's literally any number of variables that can turn your assumptions on its end. You can't prove it so the Genki Dama gives us nothing useless as a benchmark. How many Suns and planets gave energy? How much energy did they give? How about Gohan and Piccolo? The Androids? We have no clue on any of it. Then we have the lines about how it can't hurt a person with pure heart. This means it's possible evil hearts might be more susceptible to it. You have one variable. The humans. That's it. You ignore all the other variables.

The only time we know for a fact that he isn't at full power is in battle scenarios. And just because Goku holds back against his wife does not mean he has to suppress his battle power either. Characters have just restrained putting forth complete effort with their full battle power. SSJ2 Gohan at the Cell Games was a prime example of this....The only time we see him holding back is during battle and in-between battle sequences. There is actually no proof he is suppressing in his daily life. And if you want to say any panel where the Earth isn't shaking proves he's holding back then I'll just point you to any time he transforms without shaking the Earth.

So Goku's always in full power walking around in a normal day and then when he fights he powers up and... does what exactly? I'm not following at all. If he's always at full power, what's the point of powering up all the time?

As for examples, Goku's battle power wasn't being read when the Ginyu force met him. After appearing from the RoSaT no one could sense his full power until he powered up to 50% for Karin then powered up later against Cell. So that's an entire week of people having no clue what Goku's max power was before the Cell games. When Tarble meets Goku he scans his power as not enough to beat Abo and Cado. So yeah, it's established that Goku doesn't walk around in full power everyday.

Going by your analogy then. There is no point in me telling this to Bill Gates, correct? It isn't going to change things or give him any relevant information. So it is the same for this line in the BoG movie and Dragon Ball Chou. There is no reason for Beerus to say this if it wasn't relevant information about the characters. And my Ginyu example doesn't follow this. Beccause Goku still points out he can further increase his strength. Yet he doesn't in this instance with Beerus. None of them allude to him being suppressed. None of them allude to Goku being able to beat 100% Freeza using his base form. If you really think this line is addressed to a suppressed Goku then by its very definition the line is contradictory to every other line of this nature. Because up until now they've always made a point of clarifying what they mean. SSJ3 Gotenks is also a prime example of this. Trunks says "He's almost as strong as our Gotenks!" if the information had been left at just this then people would conclude that Gohan is weaker than Gotenks. But Akira Toriyama further added a comment from Goten saying "No, he is stronger." to make it clear that Gohan is actually stronger than Gotenks.

Goku explains to Ginyu that he can power up more. Goku explains to Beers that he can further increase his strength when he turns SS3. The point of the encounter for Beers was to establish Goku as the guy that beat Frieza. That's why they talk about Frieza in the first place. 'You killed Frieza. You can't with this power. Oh you turned SS3. Yeah so you can kill Frieza.' When he expresses doubt that his current form can't beat Frieza, Goku turns SS3 and proves he can. Why would either Goku or Beers care at all about how powerful his base form is? Why's that relevant? How does that help the plot? It's something people like you and me care about but Goku or Beers? It's irrelevant information to them. Goku also didn't mention Kaio Ken. What if he answered. "Actually I can just Universal Genki Dama and IT to him and kill him easily that way regardless of my power level" He never said that. So using your logic, Frieza is stronger than the Genki Dama that killed Buu because Goku never corrected him.

The analogy is getting weird but if Bill Gates doubts I can afford a house and looks at my bank statements which is low, then I just show him my mortgage papers. End of story. There's a point to the discussion. The fastest way to end it is to bring proof that ends speculation.

[GokuSuperSaiyan6]

Well, the question is ''Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?'' I'd have to say No, he's not. It is very unlikely when Goku has trained for 3 years for the android arrival, then a year in the room of spirit and time for the Cell games and then 7 years straight in after-life. That makes total off 11 years of training, also the timeskip to BoG ofcourse. But after all that and he is still weaker then Freeza? I honestly doubt that, there have been number of inconsistency's in Dragonball Fukkatsu No F. Like the 1,3 million line, which got fixed in the Dragonball Super anime. I most likely see the Beers line as an inconsistency. The line doesn't make much sense if we look at it that way.