Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[Darkprince410]

Well, the question is ''Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?'' I'd have to say No, he's not. It is very unlikely when Goku has trained for 3 years for the android arrival, then a year in the room of spirit and time for the Cell games and then 7 years straight in after-life. That makes total off 11 years of training, also the timeskip to BoG ofcourse. But after all that and he is still weaker then Freeza? I honestly doubt that, there have been number of inconsistency's in Dragonball Fukkatsu No F. Like the 1,3 million line, which got fixed in the Dragonball Super anime. I most likely see the Beers line as an inconsistency. The line doesn't make much sense if we look at it that way.

The training he did during the seven years between the Cell and Buu Sagas were suggested to be predominantly focused around Ssj2 and Ssj3, for if we use the information that Goku's Ssj2 form was stronger than Gohan's Cell Saga Ssj2 form (but not by a staggering degree), we can tell he only went from somewhat weaker than Cell Saga Gohan to a bit stronger than Cell Saga Gohan. For seven years of training, that's not a huge increase to his base form.

Additionally, with the three years of time for the arrival of #19 and Gero, all we know about his training during that point was he trained while a Super Saiya-jin, meaning that his actual base form gains would only be 1/50th of the total amount of power he gained (an increase of 100,000,000 to his Ssj form would result in an increase of 2 mil to his base form).

[Kaboom]

"Goku trained for X years" isn't proof or evidence of anything on its own. You can't easily predict power growth like that. Goku also trained for most of the first 20-something years of his life, but after that he wasn't even stronger than an average member of his own race.

[dragonballer]

As has been pointed out before, the direct statement from Beerus has no reason being in the film if it's not true. There were tons of times where it could have been contradicted or clarified if it meant anything less than that Goku without Super Saiyan is weaker than Freeza.

Goku could have thought to himself or proudly declared "I don't even need Super Saiyan to beat Freeza anymore, so wait 'til you see how strong I am when I do use it!" After Goku got his butt whooped, Kaio could have remarked "Goku was far stronger than Lord Beerus thought, but still no match for him at all." They could have simply had Goku power up in his base form before transforming and elicit a surprised remark from Beerus. Even farther back, they could have had Whis say "they increase their power through a technique called Super Saiyan, but they've become stronger than Freeza even without it."

But nope, nothing of the sort. You have a direct "A > B" statement made via observation and absolutely nothing to indicate that it's incorrect. If one assumes that it's incorrect anyway, then it no longer has any place being in the film at all and you've just created a hole in things. It means what it means.

ok,it is reasonable.but now i feel deceived by buu arc.

is just me or anybody has the impression that the writter just forgot how ssj1 got stronger? because beerus also said that ssj goku is just enough to beat freeza and not explode him with a finger.

[Kaboom]

because beerus also said that ssj goku is just enough to beat freeza and not explode him with a finger.

He didn't say that, that's just from misleading rushed subs. He said something more like "beating Freeza is the best you could do," in the sense that Freeza is the strongest person in Beerus' mind whom Goku could beat.

[apex_pretador]

Well, the question is ''Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?'' I'd have to say No, he's not. It is very unlikely when Goku has trained for 3 years for the android arrival, then a year in the room of spirit and time for the Cell games and then 7 years straight in after-life. That makes total off 11 years of training, also the timeskip to BoG ofcourse. But after all that and he is still weaker then Freeza? I honestly doubt that, there have been number of inconsistency's in Dragonball Fukkatsu No F. Like the 1,3 million line, which got fixed in the Dragonball Super anime. I most likely see the Beers line as an inconsistency. The line doesn't make much sense if we look at it that way.

Goku has trained for like 24 years before Z and still could reach only 416.
The most ridiculous PL increases happen on namek. The other increases aren't even comparable.
In 7 years of afterlife tyraining before buu, goku improved slightly (being close to gohan to slightly strongr). It was also implied in DBS that saiyans haven't improved their base form as much as SS form during training.

There is also nothing that indicates otherwise.

[apex_pretador]

How do you know he used kaioken? there is nothing to indicate that.

Piccolo explained to Gero that he can increase his power level in short bursts - which is what Kaioken was described doing. If it wasn't Kaioken it was something similar replicated by Piccolo.

Tien explicitly states that after seeing piccolo's power, he's got no chance to ever catch up on him. He says the same for SS, Krillin flat out compares piccolo to SS and the suppressing / increasing in bursts is something that they had been doing since BoZ.If piccolo could do kaioken, he could've stomped imp cell. He was the only one besides vegeta who was confident to beat androids.He also says "either we got too strong or they got too weak, implying he > gero.

Humans -> KO'd cold
Goku -> KO'd, barely conscious
Piccolo -> conscious and hurt but standing
Vegeta / trunks -> fighting back

This can simply be interpreted that Piccolo was stronger than the humans and weaker than the Super Saiyans. No one argues the opposite. Also Piccolo standing means very little actually as he was never shown been attacked in the same way the humans or SSJ Vegeta/Trunks were shown to be attacked. For all we know the events were concurrent and also taking place in a very short amount of time. Remember these fighters are supposedly moving super-fast and we are just seeing them in relative slow-motion. So it is perfectly possible for Piccolo and a Cell Jr to stand idle staring at each other for 0.1sec in-between the first and second panel that Piccolo is shown. And in the first panel where Piccolo is shown fighting one Cell Jr Toriyama spoke through his character (Cell) and said that only Vegeta and Trunks could hold their own. Even them were shown struggling greatly against the Cell Jrs who were also clearly toying with them. Piccolo who was mocked by Vegeta when Piccolo came out of RoSaT and before entering for second time was far from SSJ1 Vegeta’s level.

Vegeta and trunks were "FIGHTING BACK" aka nearly equal. And what makes you assume that Jrs were holding back / not fighting vs piccolo ONLY? Why will they specifically hold back against him? is it because he looks similar to their dad? The only two panels piccolo is shown, he's struggling but holding his own.
[On a side note, toriyama spoke through his character (beerus) that frieza is above base saiyans , TWICE.]

Tenshinhan was amazed by sick Goku, Vegeta AND piccolo, and thought that now he can never surpass them. Piccolo was also not amazed by SS goku's performance vs #19, when Tenshinhan said he's leagues above "us".

Goku was sick. Piccolo and Gohan were not impressed by Goku’s power compared to what they saw him being capable of producing when healthy. And Tenshinhan being impressed means nothing. We know that 30-40% increase in power level is considered a big increase. So it is perfectly possible sick SSJ1 Goku to be about 1.75-2x his base and the relative increase to be considered huge.

2x his base?
Sick goku has to be above SS trunks who tien sensed 3 years ago.

Remember first and second form Freeza? Anyway say base Goku is 50 million and sick SSJ1 Goku around 90 million and full power 250 million. #19 and #20 were about 75 million initially with no-one’s energy absorbed. #19 absorbed Goku's Kamehameha and sucked his life-force as SSJ1. So he raised his power while Goku's decreased. Then Vegeta would need to use a higher percentage of his own power to defeat 19.

WHAT ? SS is only a 5x boost? then why just don't use KK? Goku could use KK x10 without strain, so why didn't he use that?
He could also use KK x20 with little strain. If goku didn't use it, that proves that SS is a boost not less than than 20x.

Both vegeta and piccolo knew that vegeta couldn't beat Gero. The same vegeta 1-shotted 19 POST ABSORPTION from vegeta. So, Gero >> #19 Post vegeta absorption. Then even stronger gero was 2-shotted by piccolo. That alone proves he's superior to 50% vegeta.

First I would advise you to make better use of pronouns in some of your sentences and paragraphs. You originally said this:

It follows from incorrect assumption on Piccolo. You are forgetting that even Super Saiyan Vegeta, who was at least 50% of his power, couldn't do anything to Gero while piccolo could one-shot him

Anyway.

You are forgetting many things here. First of all by absorbing Goku's and Vegeta's power #19 increased his power. At the same time Vegeta's decreased. We do not know what was the remaining percentage of Vegeta's own power level after his fight with #19. Not only he had his energy absorbed but at the end he must have fired a pretty big blast to destroy #19 (who had a percentage of Vegeta's and Goku's power absorbed). So it could have well dropped to 10% of his full SSJ1 power. Piccolo was at 20% of SSJ1 full power Vegeta and base Vegeta was 25% if SSJ1 is a 4x multiplier. Also energy absorption is quite ambiguous since it is not quite clear what the effect of having your energy absorbed exactly is. Does it lower your energy reserves (stamina), reduces your power level (strength) or both? My bet is that it affects both so it is possible that even a 50% Vegeta felt he couldn't face Gero due to his stamina levels being too low rather than his strength level being inadequate.

Let SS vegeta's power be 100Y , #19 = 10 Y (minimum)
Post absorption , SS vegeta = 65 Y , #19 = 45 Y (vegeta was much stronger)
Post BBA , SS vegeta = 50 Y , #19 = 0 , Gero = 51 Y
Gero absorbs Vegeta's blast = 56 Y (min) , absorbs piccolo = 60 Y
Piccolo = 70 Y (one shots gero)
So, piccolo is at a MINIMUM 70% of vegeta

Knocking means nothing. Piccolo kicked 50% Freeza away from goku, so does that mean he's superior to Freeza?

Piccolo said that he put all of his power into that kick and as a result he wouldn’t be able to help any longer. Vegeta’s kick on the other hand was a regular kick – after that he turned into SSJ and beat the shit out of #19 (a #19 who absorbed Goku’s energy plus the Kamehameha).

piccolo was like 60 times weaker than frieza , vegeta was atmost 10x weaker than 19 in base, and he still needed SS to beat #19.

And this gohan was weaker than goten-trunks? Or if he was even comparable to them, then why didn't kids fight when unfused? They can go SS. You are forgetting that SS gohan was portrayed superior to SS gotenks, i.e. SS3 goku level.

SSJ1 Gotenks is nowhere near SSJ3 Goku.

Nowhere near?
Fat buu was >> SS2 goku + SS2 vegeta
SS gotenks pre was > Fat buu
SS gotenks post was >> SS gotenks pre
Goku SS3 was > Fat buu. I don't see how you can have SS gotenks POST less than 70% of initial SS3 goku. Anyways, it doesn't change the fact that SS gohan = ultimate gohan

Beerus said he found Freeza "Annoying"

You didn't counter anything here. You said that if Beerus knew about Freeza’s potential he would kill him or take him for a playmate. And I explained to you that Beerus saw Freeza even in his Golden form and he didn't take any action against him neither did he take him for a “playmate”.

Beerus has got playmates now. He still wasn't a threat to him , and who knows , maybe beerus had killed frieza if saiyans failed to do so.
Toriyama said it through beerus that frieza > base goku
If that line had a problem, it'd have been removed in super, but it wasn't.

Dabura is idiot. He thought pui pui could take all saiyans, didn't he? He and babidi also thought the same energy can be equal to 50% of buu. He also can't sense ki, he needs devices to measure it so his statement is useless.

Sure everyone is an idiot! Surpeme Kai is an idiot, Vegeta is an idiot, #18 is an idiot, Dabura is an idiot, Toriyama is an idiot. Why some people can't just accept the fact that the original author speaking through his characters and their actions makes it blatantly obvious that base Saiyans (Goku, Vegeta and Gohan)>Piccolo and #18? I mean seriously! It is not THAT hard to see!

OK , dabura is correct to think that pui - pui can beat all saiyans. So, by dabura's statement ( who can't even sense ki ) , pui pui >>> base saiyans >> piccolo. Is that OK to you?


Why is frieza > base saiyans

1. Kaioshin said "I can kill freeza in one blow " and goku is impressed. Even vegeta says nothing.
2. Piccolo says he can't fight kaioshin , and everyone is shocked.
3. Kaioshin paralyzes SS2 gohan ( we know that this thing doesn;t work on someone much stronger than you )
4. Kaioshin does much better than SS2 gohan vs fat buu
5. Kaioshin states that he's surpassed by mortals when goku turns SS2
6. Piccolo stepping forward to fight cell level opponent
7. Pui-pui thinks 10x gravity is a big deal (nappa level or raditz level)
8. SS kids still at a disadvantage vs #18
9. Piccolo implied to be stronger than post rosat SS trunks in buu
10. Beerus says in BoG that freeza > base goku
11. Beerus AGAIN says in DBS that freeza > base goku
12. Goku never opposes him or corrects him like " hey I can" even when he wantedto show off.
13. SS trunks / goten << piccolo confirmed in last episode of super.
14. SS is over 20x boost , hence goku dosen't use KK instead. So there is plenty of room for goku to become 20x stronger but not 30x in all these years.

[GokuSuperSaiyan6]

"Goku trained for X years" isn't proof or evidence of anything on its own. You can't easily predict power growth like that. Goku also trained for most of the first 20-something years of his life, but after that he wasn't even stronger than an average member of his own race.

I'd have to disagree on a degree there, i do agree on Goku's first 20-something years of training not being that impressive at all. But once goku got to train with King Kai in the afterlife less then 158 days, thats barely a few months. Since the saiyans arrived a month earlier then expected, he even trained less then 158 days and his power rose from 416 to 8,000. That's insane by that standard, but given Goku 7 years! in the afterlife. He must have gotten stronger, expecially his base since that is an important factor. If his base didnt increase at all, his Super Saiyan state multiplier wise would remain the same.

[Darkprince410]

"Goku trained for X years" isn't proof or evidence of anything on its own. You can't easily predict power growth like that. Goku also trained for most of the first 20-something years of his life, but after that he wasn't even stronger than an average member of his own race.

I'd have to disagree on a degree there, i do agree on Goku's first 20-something years of training not being that impressive at all. But once goku got to train with King Kai in the afterlife less then 158 days, thats barely a few months. Since the saiyans arrived a month earlier then expected, he even trained less then 158 days and his power rose from 416 to 8,000. That's insane by that standard, but given Goku 7 years! in the afterlife. He must have gotten stronger, expecially his base since that is an important factor. If his base didnt increase at all, his Super Saiyan state multiplier wise would remain the same.

As mentioned before though, what's indicated is that it wasn't that drastic of an increase to his base form. It's indicated by Piccolo that Ssj2 Ma-jin Vegeta (who Goku was equal to at the time in the same form) was stronger than Ssj2 Gohan from the Cell Saga, but not by a staggering degree, as he comments that he "may be" stronger than Gohan was, which suggests that it's not a huge gap between the two. So, swap Vegeta for Goku in that scenario, and we have Goku being stronger than Cell Saga Gohan, but not by a considerable amount.

Therefore, the amount of strength Goku gained in his base form during those seven years was enough to close the gap between his Cell Saga strength and Gohan's Cell Saga strength (which seemingly wasn't a drastic amount) and put him "somewhat" above Gohan's Cell Saga strength (but again, not a drastic amount).

You're likely not even looking at a doubling of his strength from the Cell Saga, much less several times over.

[GokuSuperSaiyan6]

"Goku trained for X years" isn't proof or evidence of anything on its own. You can't easily predict power growth like that. Goku also trained for most of the first 20-something years of his life, but after that he wasn't even stronger than an average member of his own race.

I'd have to disagree on a degree there, i do agree on Goku's first 20-something years of training not being that impressive at all. But once goku got to train with King Kai in the afterlife less then 158 days, thats barely a few months. Since the saiyans arrived a month earlier then expected, he even trained less then 158 days and his power rose from 416 to 8,000. That's insane by that standard, but given Goku 7 years! in the afterlife. He must have gotten stronger, expecially his base since that is an important factor. If his base didnt increase at all, his Super Saiyan state multiplier wise would remain the same.

As mentioned before though, what's indicated is that it wasn't that drastic of an increase to his base form. It's indicated by Piccolo that Ssj2 Ma-jin Vegeta (who Goku was equal to at the time in the same form) was stronger than Ssj2 Gohan from the Cell Saga, but not by a staggering degree, as he comments that he "may be" stronger than Gohan was, which suggests that it's not a huge gap between the two. So, swap Vegeta for Goku in that scenario, and we have Goku being stronger than Cell Saga Gohan, but not by a considerable amount.

Therefore, the amount of strength Goku gained in his base form during those seven years was enough to close the gap between his Cell Saga strength and Gohan's Cell Saga strength (which seemingly wasn't a drastic amount) and put him "somewhat" above Gohan's Cell Saga strength (but again, not a drastic amount).

You're likely not even looking at a doubling of his strength from the Cell Saga, much less several times over.

Hmm i see, well what if we take a look at the power-difference between Perfect Cell and Freeza 100%.. I'm going to start at Vegeta SS defeating #19, being a little bit stronger then SS Goku.

He defeated 19# using most of his power, but once he got to fight 18#. He got clobbered and ultimately defeated, lets move a little bit forward Piccolo after fusing with Kami was about on par with #17.

#17 is just a little bit stronger then #18. But when Cell arrived he clobbered them aswell and absorbed 17#, he got incredibly powerful. But when Vegeta returned from The Room of Spirit and Time, he crushed Cell 2nd form.

But once Cell transformed into his Perfect Form. Vegeta was once again nothing. But when Goku returned from The Room of Spirit and Time, he was holding his own against Perfect Form Cell during the Cell Games.

If we compare the powergap between Perfect Form Cell and Freeza at 100%, Goku base wise must have been way stronger then Vegeta's base during the battle against #19, since Vegeta was just a little bit stronger. Or else his Super Saiyan form would still be on par with a foe like #19, which is nothing! compared to Perfect Form Cell. Goku was holding his own against Perfect Cell as a Super Saiyan Grade 4.

Super Saiyan Grade Four
A form where without consciously raising their ki they are still able to remain Super Saiyan on a regular basis: that's Grade Four. From the start Grade One balanced power, energy consumption, etc. This form removes the slightly agitated state which characterizes Grade One. It's a natural form of Super Saiyan which has even gotten rid of their wild personality!

The multiplier remains the same, so that means all the responsibilty lies on his Base form to really make a difference ''power wise''. Backed up by power-scaling foe's who are superior then Freeza. i'd say Goku's base at BoG should be stronger then 100% Freeza, if this gets countered anyhow. I have nothing else to back up my claim.

[MisterGuyMan]

How exactly is some one that can one shot Frieza impressed by anyone that is weaker than Frieza? Even the direct comparisons are clear. Kaio Shin considers Pui Pui and Yakon as strong fighters. Vegeta says Pui Pui is weak. Then Kaio Shin, the same guy that can one shot Frieza, is literally in awe of base Vegeta's power in base.

Also if we're going to just ignore that Goku is suppressed and Beers is never corrected then we also can't ignore how Dabura identifies three base Saiyans as stronger than Piccolo. So now the direct comparisons for the Base Saiyans outnumber the single comparison for Frieza three to one even if you take these statements at face value.

Finally the strongest piece of evidence is Vegeta. Beers has no idea how strong Goku is when not suppressed and is only judging a suppressed Goku. Vegeta factually knows how strong Piccolo and 18 are and they're both stronger than Frieza. Yet he maintains he's still superior in the tournament and allows himself the handicap of forgoing SSJ entirely. Earlier he also says everyone has to be ready for him. I get that some people are saying it only applies to the Saiyans but that makes no sense and ignores the facts of a basic tournament format. Dabura's statements cancels out Beers' statements completely and more since he identifies three base Saiyans as stronger than Frieza whereas Beers only comments on one. Vegeta's statements are stronger than either.

[Hitiro]

So you tell me not to ignore what the author states and here you are ignoring how the author stated Kaio Shin wanted help against Pui Pui and Yakon. Plus Dabura was instructed to take out all but the three most powerful guys and he takes out Piccolo who is above Freeza. Later Babidi and Dabura confirm that they have no idea about the SSJ transformations so it was just their base forms they were judging.

Again, the Kaioshin never stated he wanted help against Pui Pui or Yakon. Only that they should fight them together. But the Kaioshin had already demonstrated that he is terrible at gauging characters. He put Goku and the others as vastly weaker than themselves. I mean if you're going to say that Base Goku, Base Vegeta and Base Gohan are superior to SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament then that is pretty ridiculous. So we have these base characters fighting Babidi's henchmen and the Kaioshin somehow thought that these henchmen are stronger than SSJ2 Gohan's display? The Kaioshin was already aware that the Saiyan's were superior to him. And Dabra being instructed to take them all out except for the three most powerful means nothing. Because we don't know how Dabra gauges his opponents strength. Dabra is a being of magic. As such his sensing abilities would more likely be bound to magic. Not Ki like the Saiyans. That is why the Saiyans used Dabra's movement to determine his strength. For all we know Dabra uses a special mystic sense that allows him to gauge who out of the group is truly the strongest but doesn't tell him how strong or by what method they achieve this strength.

Those are judgements from Dabura and Kaio Shin. I'm not saying anything myself. There's no evidence to run contrary to any of that. It's one guy who is an expert pointing out the the base Saiyans can do stuff that a guy that can one shot Freeza wants help against and another guy who IDs the three base Saiyans as being stronger than Piccolo who is in turn stronger than Freeza.

Like I said. We don't know the basis for Dabra's sensing abilities. Seeing as he doesn't have Ki for them to sense, which is why they base his strength on movement. So like they can't sense his power and have to rely on movements Dabra, being a magical being, probably found out they are the strongest through some magic method like clairvoyance.

It was also their intent to free the kids. You're basically just repeating what you think he meant. That means you can't prove it. That's my point. You tell me what you think he meant. I tell you what I think he meant. We get nowhere.

He had already voiced this inside Boo. Even if you're saying that this was a "We did it, we freed them!" then why did he leave it so late to say so? The way you think he meant it does not make sense. Especially seeing as they had freed them ages ago. Once they got out Goku also said "Yes! They are back to normal!" And then they went to hide them before going back up to confront Boo. So are you telling me Goku watched Boo change into Pure Boo and then all of a sudden went "Yes! We freed the kids!" randomly with no context? I really don't think so.

Then why did Goku think he could beat him then? This is just Akira Toriyama's way of avoiding giving a concise answer. He is hardly going to give a specific number for Boo's power level and hazard at it being wrong. Look what happened in Battle of Gods, Freeza stated after 4 months of training he would have a power level of 1 million. No matter how you dice this that isn't a power increase that should scratch any of the characters who put up a fight in the Cell Games arc.

Goku can think he can beat him. Buu's power is unknown and unfathomable. There's no contradiction. Again, I'm not just going to ignore this statement from Toriyama and neither should you honestly.

I'm not ignoring the statement. I'm just pointing out that Toriyama had long since forgotten most of the manga. He even thought SSJ3 was SSJ2 at one point during the 10 years after the manga. So he isn't going to start spouting things that could possibly be wrong. Boo's power did vary a lot during the story so he may have been on about that. Or he may have been on about the Fat Boo. Because his power varied a lot too. But I would more likely believe that he was being vague on purpose because he couldn't remember everything and didn't want to spout nonsense like Boo's power level being 1 million.

You're guessing again. You're arguing like we have an equation for how much the planet and stars can contribute. Moreover in the Buu arc, the humans, Namekians and Other World people gave up energy unto exhaustion. This isn't a normal Genki Dama because normally it usually only takes a little energy so the comparison with the one Freeza tanked is more than a little off. There's literally any number of variables that can turn your assumptions on its end. You can't prove it so the Genki Dama gives us nothing useless as a benchmark. How many Suns and planets gave energy? How much energy did they give? How about Gohan and Piccolo? The Androids? We have no clue on any of it. Then we have the lines about how it can't hurt a person with pure heart. This means it's possible evil hearts might be more susceptible to it. You have one variable. The humans. That's it. You ignore all the other variables.

I had already formulated a lot of this in other threads. The Genki Dama would still be bound by how much energy a character posses. For the Earthlings to be relevant the Ki the characters have would have to be low enough for it to be relevant. Otherwise the Goku and Vegeta would have never gone for it. As I said. Assuming an average battle power of 5 across Earth and assuming a population of 8 billion the Genki Dama would only reach 40 billion. And the things we know about this is:

1) Genki doesn't make up 100% of someones Ki. Therefore it wouldn't be 5 for the battle power.
2) Gohan and the others Genki wasn't enough to fill the Genki Dama. So this is probably a low percentage of overall Ki. Even looking at the size of the Genki Dama compared to when they contributed and when the whole of Earth did then you can see the contribution was actually small in comparison. It wasn't even 50% of the size.
3) You make these base characters way above Freeza then the Earthlings become insignificant to power the Genki Dama. Whereas the anime and manga both show that their Genki was the major factor in making the Genki Dama.

So Goku's always in full power walking around in a normal day and then when he fights he powers up and... does what exactly? I'm not following at all. If he's always at full power, what's the point of powering up all the time?

I've said this before but suppressing your Ki is a tactical advantage for you. It makes your opponent underestimate you. This can be a useful tactic. And if you know that you're going to have to fight it is also a way to conserve energy in a fight. So if Goku and the others have nothing to do there is no reason to constantly be suppressing.

As for examples, Goku's battle power wasn't being read when the Ginyu force met him. After appearing from the RoSaT no one could sense his full power until he powered up to 50% for Karin then powered up later against Cell. So that's an entire week of people having no clue what Goku's max power was before the Cell games. When Tarble meets Goku he scans his power as not enough to beat Abo and Cado. So yeah, it's established that Goku doesn't walk around in full power everyday.

Because of the reasons I pointed out above. There is no reason for Goku to show his full power so Cell knows what to expect. Goku can win the fight if this opponent underestimates him. If he is at full power from the start it is clear how much energy Cell needs to output to fight against Goku. Tarble arriving was also noticed by the gang. So they are hardly going to output their full power before they know who someone is either.

Goku explains to Ginyu that he can power up more. Goku explains to Beers that he can further increase his strength when he turns SS3. The point of the encounter for Beers was to establish Goku as the guy that beat Freeza. That's why they talk about Freeza in the first place. 'You killed Freeza. You can't with this power. Oh you turned SS3. Yeah so you can kill Freeza.' When he expresses doubt that his current form can't beat Freeza, Goku turns SS3 and proves he can. Why would either Goku or Beers care at all about how powerful his base form is? Why's that relevant? How does that help the plot? It's something people like you and me care about but Goku or Beers? It's irrelevant information to them. Goku also didn't mention Kaio Ken. What if he answered. "Actually I can just Universal Genki Dama and IT to him and kill him easily that way regardless of my power level" He never said that. So using your logic, Freeza is stronger than the Genki Dama that killed Buu because Goku never corrected him.

The analogy is getting weird but if Bill Gates doubts I can afford a house and looks at my bank statements which is low, then I just show him my mortgage papers. End of story. There's a point to the discussion. The fastest way to end it is to bring proof that ends speculation.

But again, the point that Goku can't beat Freeza in his base needs not to be mentioned. Beerus could have simply asked Goku to show him his power. Beerus' original reason for coming there is to find out about SSJGod. So this could have been entirely skipped. There is a reason why the line was provided. And that was to establish that Goku couldn't win against Freeza in his base form. Otherwise the line has no reason in being there. Because the audience know that a suppressed character can be beaten by a non-suppressed character. And no. Goku turns SSJ first then Beerus says "I can see how you could beat Freeza now." Nothing contradicts this. Your saying why would either Goku or Beerus care at all about how powerful his base form is and why is that relevant. I'm asking you the same thing. Why is it relevant for Beerus to make the comment about Goku's base form in the first place? There is no need for the line if it was simply in regard to a suppressed Goku. This is what you keep missing. Toriyama and the other staff producing the story didn't all sit around a table and just decide to throw random lines in this story on a whim. They have meaning in one regard or another. Such as the lines telling us that "mortals" seem to not be able to sense God Ki. This line is there to tell us that. If Base Goku's strength is irrelevant information to them then it is certainly irrelevant information to us. Unless Akira Toriyama and the staff wanted to give us relevant information.

So would Goku < 100% Freeza be relevant to us? Of course it would. It established to us that even after all these years Goku still requires SSJ to beat Freeza. Hence why the line was said. If it was some random line that had no reason being there then it would simply not be there. And now you're being ridiculous. Because if we want to say that a character can beat or not beat other characters then Kuririn can beat everyone with a Taiyoken and Kienzan. Yet he doesn't. You keep trying to say this line was simply addressed to a suppressed Goku. But I keep telling you there is no reason for this line if that were the case. It also goes against what has always happened in the story. We're always been informed when a character is suppressed or given information to disprove a statement like this. Yet now we're getting a random line with no relevance being thrown in there just because? I don't think so.

[MisterGuyMan]

Again, the Kaioshin never stated he wanted help against Pui Pui or Yakon. Only that they should fight them together. But the Kaioshin had already demonstrated that he is terrible at gauging characters. He put Goku and the others as vastly weaker than themselves. I mean if you're going to say that Base Goku, Base Vegeta and Base Gohan are superior to SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament then that is pretty ridiculous. So we have these base characters fighting Babidi's henchmen and the Kaioshin somehow thought that these henchmen are stronger than SSJ2 Gohan's display? The Kaioshin was already aware that the Saiyan's were superior to him. And Dabra being instructed to take them all out except for the three most powerful means nothing. Because we don't know how Dabra gauges his opponents strength. Dabra is a being of magic. As such his sensing abilities would more likely be bound to magic. Not Ki like the Saiyans. That is why the Saiyans used Dabra's movement to determine his strength. For all we know Dabra uses a special mystic sense that allows him to gauge who out of the group is truly the strongest but doesn't tell him how strong or by what method they achieve this strength.

You're making the argument that Kaio Shin didn't want help against Pui Pui and Yakon but he only wanted to fight them together. Those two things entail each other so much that they mean the same thing. For Kaio Shin to fight them together with the Saiyans he needs their help. There's no middle ground.

Also the important point is that anyone that can one shot Frieza would not need help against anyone that is as weak as Frieza. How can people weaker than Frieza possibly shock Kaio Shin or be of any help whatsoever if Kaio Shin can one shot anyone that's as weak as Frieza?

You're also making the distiction that we should take Beers statements at face value and ignore how Goku was suppressed, but then treat Dabura's statements differently. Why are they different? You can't have it both ways.

Like I said. We don't know the basis for Dabra's sensing abilities. Seeing as he doesn't have Ki for them to sense, which is why they base his strength on movement. So like they can't sense his power and have to rely on movements Dabra, being a magical being, probably found out they are the strongest through some magic method like clairvoyance.

You're holding a double standard. Beers' statement is acceptable even though we don't know how he senses opponents' power and Z fighters can't sense him. Dabura's statement can't be accepted because we don't know how he senses opponents' power and Z fighters can't sense him. You can't have it both ways.

He had already voiced this inside Boo. Even if you're saying that this was a "We did it, we freed them!" then why did he leave it so late to say so? The way you think he meant it does not make sense. Especially seeing as they had freed them ages ago. Once they got out Goku also said "Yes! They are back to normal!" And then they went to hide them before going back up to confront Boo. So are you telling me Goku watched Boo change into Pure Boo and then all of a sudden went "Yes! We freed the kids!" randomly with no context? I really don't think so.

Why not? He was busy watching Buu. I'm not Goku so I can't speak for him. You're not Goku either so you can't speak for him either. That's the entire point. I can say anything to explain what I think he mean and you can do the same thing. In the end we're not proving anything, just repeating what we think.

I'm not ignoring the statement. I'm just pointing out that Toriyama had long since forgotten most of the manga. He even thought SSJ3 was SSJ2 at one point during the 10 years after the manga. So he isn't going to start spouting things that could possibly be wrong. Boo's power did vary a lot during the story so he may have been on about that. Or he may have been on about the Fat Boo. Because his power varied a lot too. But I would more likely believe that he was being vague on purpose because he couldn't remember everything and didn't want to spout nonsense like Boo's power level being 1 million.

While I can respect your interpretation, it also casts huge doubt on comparison's using Buu himself. The terms Unknown and Unfathomable clearly indicate how unreliable such evidence could be. You can't blame me for having doubts since I'm just quoting Toriyama either.

I had already formulated a lot of this in other threads. The Genki Dama would still be bound by how much energy a character posses. For the Earthlings to be relevant the Ki the characters have would have to be low enough for it to be relevant. Otherwise the Goku and Vegeta would have never gone for it. As I said. Assuming an average battle power of 5 across Earth and assuming a population of 8 billion the Genki Dama would only reach 40 billion. And the things we know about this is:

1) Genki doesn't make up 100% of someones Ki. Therefore it wouldn't be 5 for the battle power.
2) Gohan and the others Genki wasn't enough to fill the Genki Dama. So this is probably a low percentage of overall Ki. Even looking at the size of the Genki Dama compared to when they contributed and when the whole of Earth did then you can see the contribution was actually small in comparison. It wasn't even 50% of the size.
3) You make these base characters way above Freeza then the Earthlings become insignificant to power the Genki Dama. Whereas the anime and manga both show that their Genki was the major factor in making the Genki Dama.

1. Granted. And then we add the Namekians and the people from Otherworld. Then add the power from Suns and Planets.
2. Granted. I'm not disagreeing with you. Refer to all the other factors you're failing to account for though.
3. It was major but its percentage was unstated. That's what you're missing. You're using this as evidence. You need something more concrete. How about the Suns? Planets? Namekians? Otherworld people? What about the Genki and evil/pure heart thing? You're ignoring all of that. You need to be able to account for it if you want to use this as evidence.

I've said this before but suppressing your Ki is a tactical advantage for you. It makes your opponent underestimate you. This can be a useful tactic. And if you know that you're going to have to fight it is also a way to conserve energy in a fight. So if Goku and the others have nothing to do there is no reason to constantly be suppressing....Because of the reasons I pointed out above. There is no reason for Goku to show his full power so Cell knows what to expect. Goku can win the fight if this opponent underestimates him. If he is at full power from the start it is clear how much energy Cell needs to output to fight against Goku. Tarble arriving was also noticed by the gang. So they are hardly going to output their full power before they know who someone is either.

I'm just stating what we observe though. Goku doesn't walk around with his full power on display at all times. You're explaining various reasons why. In the end it still doesn't change anything because Goku still doesn't walk around with his full power on display. Why was Goku hiding his power against Tarble? How about during the tournament? Why doesn't Kaio Shin know the full power of base Goku and Vegeta if they walk around at full power all the time?

In the end it just shows why Beers' statement isn't worth anything. At worst for you, Goku is shown to suppress himself in everyday life than he is shown to have his full power. At best, you can't prove Beers was guaging Goku's full power. Either way, Beers' statement isn't evidence of much because we don't know what he was measuring. This is why I also don't cite the Dabura example personally. I don't know what he was referring because I can't prove it. However if you insist on using Beers' statement then you can't ignore Dabura's statements either. You can't pick and choose here.

But again, the point that Goku can't beat Freeza in his base needs not to be mentioned. Beerus could have simply asked Goku to show him his power. Beerus' original reason for coming there is to find out about SSJGod. So this could have been entirely skipped. There is a reason why the line was provided. And that was to establish that Goku couldn't win against Freeza in his base form. Otherwise the line has no reason in being there. Because the audience know that a suppressed character can be beaten by a non-suppressed character. And no. Goku turns SSJ first then Beerus says "I can see how you could beat Freeza now." Nothing contradicts this. Your saying why would either Goku or Beerus care at all about how powerful his base form is and why is that relevant. I'm asking you the same thing. Why is it relevant for Beerus to make the comment about Goku's base form in the first place? There is no need for the line if it was simply in regard to a suppressed Goku. This is what you keep missing. Toriyama and the other staff producing the story didn't all sit around a table and just decide to throw random lines in this story on a whim. They have meaning in one regard or another. Such as the lines telling us that "mortals" seem to not be able to sense God Ki. This line is there to tell us that. If Base Goku's strength is irrelevant information to them then it is certainly irrelevant information to us. Unless Akira Toriyama and the staff wanted to give us relevant information.

You're pretending that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. We don't need contradictions if the original statement can't be proven. It's really that simple. You're arguing about what the story might of been or could have been. We should just deal with the story as it is now. I already explained why I think the line made sense. It was to give Goku a quick reason to transform. That's what I think. You think otherwise. Again, we're at a point we're repeating what we both think and neither can prove it. I'm not interested honestly in what either of us think, just what we can prove.

That's where we're at. With Beers' statement there's little we can actually prove. That's the evidence. Speculating over what wasn't said later on isn't evidence. I gave you an example of how Goku, even at base could beat Frieza with the Genki Dama. How about this?

Does Goku need to explain each and every possible way he could beat some one? That's what you're saying. If he doesn't deny something then it can't be true. So can Frieza survive a Kienzan from base Goku if he ITs into battle? He never denies it. This is why absence of evidence is a fallacy.

So would Goku < 100% Freeza be relevant to us? Of course it would. It established to us that even after all these years Goku still requires SSJ to beat Freeza. Hence why the line was said. If it was some random line that had no reason being there then it would simply not be there. And now you're being ridiculous. Because if we want to say that a character can beat or not beat other characters then Kuririn can beat everyone with a Taiyoken and Kienzan. Yet he doesn't. You keep trying to say this line was simply addressed to a suppressed Goku. But I keep telling you there is no reason for this line if that were the case. It also goes against what has always happened in the story. We're always been informed when a character is suppressed or given information to disprove a statement like this. Yet now we're getting a random line with no relevance being thrown in there just because? I don't think so.

You're speculating why the line was stated. I told you why I think the line was stated. We disagree. So where does that leave us? Nowhere honestly. We're just repeating what we both think. Conversely if I used your logic then I could say that after all these years we finally know base Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are stronger than Piccolo based on what Dabura said. What about that? Why are you allowed to use the reasoning for Beers but ignore that reasoning with Dabura? It's the same exact thing.

[Kaboom]

This strikes me as a whole lot of unnecessary words for something that's really pretty simple. "The Boo arc had some stuff that could be taken to imply something. A direct statement from Battle of Gods plainly said the opposite."

Common sense would say that the direct statement takes precedence, right? Anything from the Boo arc to the contrary is far less precise or matter-of-fact, and can easily be explained in other ways.

• Vegeta boasts superiority: Given the context, he's only concerned with and talking about his ranking among the Saiyans.
• Dabra and Bobbidi say the Saiyans are bestest: For a variety of reasons, they can't just be sensing and judging their current forms' power level. The whole point of the scene is the heroes are hidden but detected anyway through some sort of magic clairvoyance. Which apparently lets Dabra and Bobbidi peek deeper and see who's hiding the most power (via Super Saiyan) as well.
• Kaioshin wants to gang up on Pui-Pui: He's being overly but understandably cautious of anything related to Majin Boo.
• Beerus says Goku can't beat Freeza unless he powers up via Super Saiyan: Practically zero wiggle room, no way around it.

[MisterGuyMan]

This strikes me as a whole lot of unnecessary words for something that's really pretty simple. "The Boo arc had some stuff that could be taken to imply something. A direct statement from Battle of Gods plainly said the opposite."

Common sense would say that the direct statement takes precedence, right? Anything from the Boo arc to the contrary is far less precise or matter-of-fact, and can easily be explained in other ways.

It's a plain statement only if we ignore that Goku regularly suppresses his full power. Moreover there's a direct statement where Dabura is told to leave only the three strongest and places the three base Saiyans above Piccolo who is in turn above Frieza. So why does that direct statement not count?

[Kaboom]

It's a plain statement only if we ignore that Goku regularly suppresses his full power.

We have no reason to think Goku is suppressing himself at the time. Other than just adamantly not wanting to believe what Beerus said, of course.

[MisterGuyMan]

It's a plain statement only if we ignore that Goku regularly suppresses his full power.

We have no reason to think Goku is suppressing himself at the time. Other than just adamantly not wanting to believe what Beerus said, of course.

We have no reason to think he's at full power either. We need to know something before we count it as evidence.

[Kaboom]

We have no reason to think he's at full power either. We need to know something before we count it as evidence.

I think I get it now.

No actual contradiction to what Beerus said exists, so you're trying to turn the discussion about it into some infinite logical loop where it can't "count" unless a variety of different unknowns can be verified. You can't actually prove Beerus wrong, so you're just trying to prevent him from being right. Which leaves you stuck spinning in a circle and means discussing it with you is pointless.

[MisterGuyMan]

I think I get it now.

No actual contradiction to what Beerus said exists, so you're trying to turn the discussion about it into some infinite logical loop where it can't "count" unless a variety of different and completely unnecessary unknowns can be verified. You can't actually prove Beerus wrong, so you're just trying to prevent him from being right. Which leaves you stuck spinning in a circle and means discussing it with you is pointless.

Actually this is the basic premise of logic called burden of proof. If you want to cite Beer's statement then you need to prove what he meant. Knowing what Beers was measuring isn't unnecessary at all. It's literally the entire point of the discussion. It's the one thing we need to know. Saying "you can't disprove me" is the logical fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. That's all I'm pointing out.

So we have a statement from Beers on one base Saiyan. That's cool. We also have a statement from Dabura and Babidi regarding three base Saiyans. So it's a double standard to accept one blindly but dismiss the other equally as blindly.

[Kaboom]

Actually this is the basic premise of logic called burden of proof.

Beerus' line is the proof.

When the topic is base Goku's strength compared to Freeza's, then pointing to Beerus' line is all that's necessary to back up one's stance. It's there, it's direct, nothing contradicts it (including the Bobbidi and Dabra thing; see below), so it's good enough. Bada-bing.

Saying "well it's actually NOT proof because he MIGHT be wrong because of this other thing that MIGHT be happening even though nothing says it is" is just desperate, dumb, and a waste of everyone's time.

[MisterGuyMan]

Beerus' line is the proof.

When the topic is base Goku's strength compared to Freeza's, then pointing to Beerus' line is all that's necessary to back up one's stance. It's there, it's direct, nothing contradicts it (including the Bobbidi and Dabra thing; see above), so it's good enough. Period.

Saying "well it's actually NOT proof because he MIGHT be wrong because of this other thing that MIGHT be happening even though nothing says it is" is just desperate, dumb, and a waste of everyone's time.

That's my point. Beers' line is the proof. I agree with that. However, we can't prove he wasn't just sensing a suppressed Goku. Therefore we don't have anything reliable with the proof in question. I disagree with the nature of the proof. It's there, it's not direct and Dabura and Babidi's statements contradict it. Also I'm not even disagreeing with Beers. He's right. Whatever level of power Goku was at likely isn't enough to beat Frieza in an open fight. So now the question that remains is what level of power was Goku? He's suppressed more times than he is at full power in his day to day activities.

That's how proof works. If you can find evidence that shows other evidence might be wrong, then what? We just ignore what we don't like? People getting power estimates wrong happens all the time in DB especially when it's Z fighters that only go full power in their fights. But now suddenly we just assume these estimates are always right? Ok so let's do that. Then Dabura is right too. You can't have it both ways.