What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by dae428 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:02 am

Michsi wrote:
dae428 wrote: Do you see Goku really going through the trouble though? I'm not gonna say that Goku's a shallow character that only cares about getting stronger, but he definitely isn't the type of character to dwell on things like these. It's definitely doable for Toriyama or Toei to put in a Goku sister character, but I think the bigger question we have to ask ourselves is would we even want that?
As he is written now? Not really. It's a little frustrating with how we barely ever see him show interest in anything other than fighting. As I said, I'm not against the idea in general, as long as the execution is okay, as long as the character is interesting and entertaining and brings something new to the story it could be Goku's long lost daughter for all I care.

But as I said, we have no shortage of saiyans :)
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't he always been like that though? In the beginning of Dragon Ball Goku actively sought out Muten Roshi for training, then left on his own to get stronger, then trained with Kami, then married Chichi but still mainly just trained without a job, then died and trained with Kaio, then trained on his way to Namek, then trained on Yardrat willingly ditching his family, then trained with Gohan and Piccolo, then trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, then trained in the after life, then trained back at home while not visiting his friends for 5 years after the 10 year time skip at the end of Z.
I've always seen Goku as kind of a hermit character who mainly just focuses on getting stronger and fighting strong guys. Sure he cares about his friends but he generally ignores them unless they actively seek him out and has never been shown actively pursuing relationships with other people other than sparring partners and masters.

I'm totally with you that it's fine as long as the execution is good, but the problem is that I just can't see it being executed properly without compromising the story and character. I'm not even against female Saiyans or even female characters in general making their way into Dragon Ball as main characters, my only real concerns are based solely on proper execution as it should benefit the story and not have to feel forced or unnatural. Like say, forcing in specific female characters in just because there's a need to have a specific quota of female characters. It would be like putting in a boy member in the Power Puff Girls just because there's no boy's in the group. There's the Rowdy Ruff Boys sure but that actually properly worked into the story with them pretty much being the exact opposite of the Power Puff Girls.

@Kendamu: I've never seen Pan act scholarly in sense of the word. I mean I kind of see where you are coming from with Gohan being her father, but personally I kind of hope she doesn't ever become a Gohan 2.0 character. It would be kind of lame in my opinion. I want her to be her own unique character that isn't Gohan or Goku. Kind of like Goten. While a lot of people bash Goten for looking like Goku, I actually feel that Goten actually does have his own unique personality. He's naive and playful from his time living in a wildlife environment, but he's also very impressionable following Trunks as a subordinate while also looking up to his older brother. He's the product of a peaceful era with powerful role models. This is a kid who likes training to a degree, but only because he sees it as fun and games unlike Goku who looked at it in a slightly more serious and obsessive light. Hopefully she gets to shine a bit more in the future though unlike Goten... ^^;

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by Michsi » Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:49 am

dae428 wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't he always been like that though? In the beginning of Dragon Ball Goku actively sought out Muten Roshi for training, then left on his own to get stronger, then trained with Kami, then married Chichi but still mainly just trained without a job, then died and trained with Kaio, then trained on his way to Namek, then trained on Yardrat willingly ditching his family, then trained with Gohan and Piccolo, then trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, then trained in the after life, then trained back at home while not visiting his friends for 5 years after the 10 year time skip at the end of Z.
I've always seen Goku as kind of a hermit character who mainly just focuses on getting stronger and fighting strong guys. Sure he cares about his friends but he generally ignores them unless they actively seek him out and has never been shown actively pursuing relationships with other people other than sparring partners and masters.

I'm totally with you that it's fine as long as the execution is good, but the problem is that I just can't see it being executed properly without compromising the story and character. I'm not even against female Saiyans or even female characters in general making their way into Dragon Ball as main characters, my only real concerns are based solely on proper execution as it should benefit the story and not have to feel forced or unnatural. Like say, forcing in specific female characters in just because there's a need to have a specific quota of female characters. It would be like putting in a boy member in the Power Puff Girls just because there's no boy's in the group. There's the Rowdy Ruff Boys sure but that actually properly worked into the story with them pretty much being the exact opposite of the Power Puff Girls.
Yes, he has always been predominantly about training and meeting stronger opponents, but there have been instances in the earlier parts of the story where we see him being motivated by something other than his thirst for challenges. His fight with Radditz was all about getting Gohan back, and he was so fixated and desperate to save him, he didn't care about having a fair fight, about going one on one , about winning against someone stronger, everything that later becomes his incentive for fighting. Same with his fight against the first Piccolo. It was mostly personal. Or what about him realizing his mistake towards Gohan when sending him to fight Cell ? What I mean is that it's not that far fetched to imagine him in a situation where his moved by other emotions than those related to his passion for fighting.

I wasn't really thinking necessarily of the gender, rather the idea of having another relative pop out of nowhere and what possible impact that could have on Goku and the other characters. I'm not really for forcing a certain type of character just to simply fulfill a certain quota myself, but I guess the complete lack of a female fighter starts to become glaring after a while. I mean, even Goku's mother, a full blooded saiyan , born and raised among saiyans, ended up being a gentle non-fighting character. If this hypothetical sister would simply be another Gine, I'd rather not have any female saiyans at all.

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by Grand Elder Togu » Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:28 am

On one hand, I don't want any more meddling in Goku's backstory, or any more neglect of the huge diverse cast already present in the series. On the other hand, another cute girl wouldn't exactly hurt the franchise :)

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by dae428 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:17 pm

Yes, he has always been predominantly about training and meeting stronger opponents, but there have been instances in the earlier parts of the story where we see him being motivated by something other than his thirst for challenges. His fight with Radditz was all about getting Gohan back, and he was so fixated and desperate to save him, he didn't care about having a fair fight, about going one on one , about winning against someone stronger, everything that later becomes his incentive for fighting. Same with his fight against the first Piccolo. It was mostly personal. Or what about him realizing his mistake towards Gohan when sending him to fight Cell ? What I mean is that it's not that far fetched to imagine him in a situation where his moved by other emotions than those related to his passion for fighting.

I wasn't really thinking necessarily of the gender, rather the idea of having another relative pop out of nowhere and what possible impact that could have on Goku and the other characters. I'm not really for forcing a certain type of character just to simply fulfill a certain quota myself, but I guess the complete lack of a female fighter starts to become glaring after a while. I mean, even Goku's mother, a full blooded saiyan , born and raised among saiyans, ended up being a gentle non-fighting character. If this hypothetical sister would simply be another Gine, I'd rather not have any female saiyans at all.
Yeah, but those are all personal connections. Of course Goku would protect his son. It's his son who he's lived with for years and this is a guy who can't be beaten through regular means like Piccolo. Now going back to Piccolo, it's not that he necessarily held a grudge against Piccolo, it was more the fact that he wanted to win the Tenkaichi Budokai fair and square. If Goku really felt a deep personal hatred against Piccolo he wouldn't have struggled to give him a Senzu. Again, I'm not saying Goku's a shallow character who only cares about fighting. He's just a forward thinker who never really dwells on the past because his mind is just focused on the present and future. I mean there's a reason he never mentions or even expresses curiosity in Bardock.

I figured you were talking specifically about a sister for Goku due to the main topic so I apologize for my mistake. However, my point still stands. It just doesn't seem to fall in line to the character of Goku to focus on a lost family member. And even if Goku didn't play an active role in finding or mending his relationship with his relative, my prior points still stand. What would it do for the story? There's a reason why many people on this forum loathe Dragon Ball Minus and Episode of Bardock. Both introduced Gine and Bardock as anomalies in their race which conflicted with the earlier notion of Goku as being born a typical if not even lower than typical Saiyan warrior. I'm fine with more female characters or even long lost relatives, but I believe that characters must ultimately serve the story as opposed to the story serving the characters. This is why I was fine with Toriyama not having Gohan become the main character in the Boo arc and honestly none to fond of the concept of Mystic Gohan. Goku has such an interesting narrative set up for him already and to mess with it would only set up either trouble or disappointment in my opinion.

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:22 pm

Toriyama has no interest in Gokuu's brother, why would he have interest in his sister, unless to marry her off to Piccolo or someone?
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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by Michsi » Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:11 pm

dae428 wrote:
Yeah, but those are all personal connections. Of course Goku would protect his son. It's his son who he's lived with for years and this is a guy who can't be beaten through regular means like Piccolo. Now going back to Piccolo, it's not that he necessarily held a grudge against Piccolo, it was more the fact that he wanted to win the Tenkaichi Budokai fair and square. If Goku really felt a deep personal hatred against Piccolo he wouldn't have struggled to give him a Senzu. Again, I'm not saying Goku's a shallow character who only cares about fighting. He's just a forward thinker who never really dwells on the past because his mind is just focused on the present and future. I mean there's a reason he never mentions or even expresses curiosity in Bardock.
I was referring to the first Piccolo. The one responsible for Kuririn's and Master Roshi's death. That batte was very personal.

Simply being related to him would encourage some sort of personal connection. I mean, he was willing to forgive Radditz even after all he did, so it stands to reason he would try to connect with another sibling. Assuming, of course, she doesn't debut with abducting someone he cares about or something.
I figured you were talking specifically about a sister for Goku due to the main topic so I apologize for my mistake. However, my point still stands. It just doesn't seem to fall in line to the character of Goku to focus on a lost family member. And even if Goku didn't play an active role in finding or mending his relationship with his relative, my prior points still stand. What would it do for the story? There's a reason why many people on this forum loathe Dragon Ball Minus and Episode of Bardock. Both introduced Gine and Bardock as anomalies in their race which conflicted with the earlier notion of Goku as being born a typical if not even lower than typical Saiyan warrior. I'm fine with more female characters or even long lost relatives, but I believe that characters must ultimately serve the story as opposed to the story serving the characters. This is why I was fine with Toriyama not having Gohan become the main character in the Boo arc and honestly none to fond of the concept of Mystic Gohan. Goku has such an interesting narrative set up for him already and to mess with it would only set up either trouble or disappointment in my opinion.
Yes, this is basically the point I'm trying to make. It all depends on the character, on how interesting she would be and what she could bring to the story. I also mentioned I wouldn't want another Gine. There are hundreds of ways in which you could introduce this hypothetical sister well, it's just a matter creativity.

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by dae428 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:37 pm

Exactly. That battle was personal. He killed Goku's friends and family and he was a youngling filled with rage for the most part. But then go when he's an adult. For the most part, he spares everyone he encounters if he can. He did it to Vegeta, he did it to the Ginyu Force and even went as far as to do it to Freeza who was the guy who killed his best friend and that was twice. Also I know people like overuse this argument from time to time, but the thing is, Goku is very neglectful. He chooses to avoid his family and focus on training whenever he can because that's what he does. That's very selfish sure but that's who Goku is. We've seen nothing to indicate that Goku even cares about Raditz being his brother other than that Goku chose to spare him twice, but he's already done that multiple times. He's even done that to Vegeta who could easily have been considered a major threat in the future as Goku only managed to defeat him with the help of others. So I feel that the example you gave with Raditz is fairly moot.

I'm not saying that having a relative of Goku showing up is necessarily impossible. I'm just saying that it's nearly impossible to do without adding anything good to the story in any way, shape, or form due to the reasons I mentioned earlier.

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by Michsi » Fri Dec 25, 2015 5:16 pm

Radditz wasn't one of those people he defeated and spared because he wanted to fight again. He looked really reluctant to let go of his tail and what made him do it in the end was Radditz invoking him being his brother. Again, that whole battle, his attitude and motivation for fighting is different from most of the others.

From the beginning I never denied that Goku is the way you described him, I'm saying that there are instances in the story where we see a different side of him. It's not far fetched to imagine a situation where he is moved by something different than his love for battle. That's the gist of my post.

The sister doesn't have to become the focus of his interest , just like the tension between future Trunks and Vegeta wasn't the focal point of the Android/Cell arc, but it was still an interesting addition the story.

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by dae428 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:05 pm

Michsi wrote:Radditz wasn't one of those people he defeated and spared because he wanted to fight again. He looked really reluctant to let go of his tail and what made him do it in the end was Radditz invoking him being his brother. Again, that whole battle, his attitude and motivation for fighting is different from most of the others.

From the beginning I never denied that Goku is the way you described him, I'm saying that there are instances in the story where we see a different side of him. It's not far fetched to imagine a situation where he is moved by something different than his love for battle. That's the gist of my post.

The sister doesn't have to become the focus of his interest , just like the tension between future Trunks and Vegeta wasn't the focal point of the Android/Cell arc, but it was still an interesting addition the story.
Honestly at this point it all becomes subjective based on how you interpret the scene. There's nothing concrete that where we see Goku thinking to himself, "This is my brother. While I don't like him, he's the only one I've got." You can say he let go because it was his brother while I can say he let go because it was such a waste of potential and he didn't want to let it go to waste however, based on concrete evidence with Vegeta, the Ginyu Force, and Freeza the evidence seems to support my conclusions more than yours. As mentioned earlier, Goku has never explicity expressed any interest in his Saiyan heritage as well as his Saiyan family. Vegeta on the other hand takes pride in his Saiyan heritage and see's his family as elements of who he is to a degree while also maintaining his pride in being number 1. This works great for Vegeta and Trunks dynamic and is completely natural. Goku and Goku's family member X? I don't think so. The only reason Goku really started paying attention to Vegeta was because Vegeta finally became a guy worth fighting with and because they had finally acknowledged one another.

Now you can argue that, there can be more done to the character to make him/her more relevant such as making her strong, but as mentioned earlier it would severely hamper the story of Goku's lineage. Then why not make him/her a side character who doesn't do much? Then that would just make people angry as it would ultimately be pointless and already done via Tarble and to a much lesser extant Trunks. Plus there's the whole "Why can't girls be strong characters!" that I'd rather not get into again.

Honestly, I think the best way related characters and even relevant female characters can be shown is naturally like with Pan who I feel has the potential to be a great character in the future without messing with the beat of the story.

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:07 pm

It would be interesting if Goku found out Grandpa Gohan had other, biological family out there he didn't know about or lost contact with years ago.
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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by Michsi » Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:46 pm

dae428 wrote: Honestly at this point it all becomes subjective based on how you interpret the scene. There's nothing concrete that where we see Goku thinking to himself, "This is my brother. While I don't like him, he's the only one I've got." You can say he let go because it was his brother while I can say he let go because it was such a waste of potential and he didn't want to let it go to waste however, based on concrete evidence with Vegeta, the Ginyu Force, and Freeza the evidence seems to support my conclusions more than yours. As mentioned earlier, Goku has never explicity expressed any interest in his Saiyan heritage as well as his Saiyan family. Vegeta on the other hand takes pride in his Saiyan heritage and see's his family as elements of who he is to a degree while also maintaining his pride in being number 1. This works great for Vegeta and Trunks dynamic and is completely natural. Goku and Goku's family member X? I don't think so. The only reason Goku really started paying attention to Vegeta was because Vegeta finally became a guy worth fighting with and because they had finally acknowledged one another.
Well, the fact that it was in that moment, right after that statement, that Goku let go of his tail seems pretty concrete, that something about those words struck a cord. We, the audience, are always told when he chooses to spare someone because he is interested in fighting them again, there is no hint of that in this fight ( At most it could've just been mercy) He prefers to fight someone one on one, but here he immediately accepts Piccolo's help, he wants to fight his opponents at their full potential, but goes for Radditz' tail to weaken him. Gohan is his priority here, not the fight.
He does change afterwards and we never see this level of devotion towards his family again, but the point is we did see it once.

This isn't about him caring about his heritage, it's about family, otherwise why mention "sister" when instead we could've gone with plain "new female saiyan". He does seem to have embraced his saiyanhood fully and at times even seems proud of it.
Now you can argue that, there can be more done to the character to make him/her more relevant such as making her strong, but as mentioned earlier it would severely hamper the story of Goku's lineage. Then why not make him/her a side character who doesn't do much? Then that would just make people angry as it would ultimately be pointless and already done via Tarble and to a much lesser extant Trunks. Plus there's the whole "Why can't girls be strong characters!" that I'd rather not get into again.
It could only hamper Goku's lineage if she ended up being a disappointing character, but why automatically assume that will be the case? There are just so many ways you could make it work. It's all about the execution.
Honestly, I think the best way related characters and even relevant female characters can be shown is naturally like with Pan who I feel has the potential to be a great character in the future without messing with the beat of the story.
I agree, I just hope the story will progress that far.
It would be interesting if Goku found out Grandpa Gohan had other, biological family out there he didn't know about or lost contact with years ago.
Even better, but I think it would be more difficult to turn them into relevant characters.

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by Muffin Man » Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:04 am

I really don't think Goku having a sister would add anything worthwhile to the story. If they add another saiyan survivor, I'd rather they be completely unrelated to the main cast.

However, thinking about it now, I feel like it would've been a lot cuter if Tarble had been Vegeta's younger sister rather than his younger brother. Ah well.

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by dae428 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:24 am

Michsi wrote:
Well, the fact that it was in that moment, right after that statement, that Goku let go of his tail seems pretty concrete, that something about those words struck a cord. We, the audience, are always told when he chooses to spare someone because he is interested in fighting them again, there is no hint of that in this fight ( At most it could've just been mercy) He prefers to fight someone one on one, but here he immediately accepts Piccolo's help, he wants to fight his opponents at their full potential, but goes for Radditz' tail to weaken him. Gohan is his priority here, not the fight.
He does change afterwards and we never see this level of devotion towards his family again, but the point is we did see it once.

This isn't about him caring about his heritage, it's about family, otherwise why mention "sister" when instead we could've gone with plain "new female saiyan". He does seem to have embraced his saiyanhood fully and at times even seems proud of it.

It could only hamper Goku's lineage if she ended up being a disappointing character, but why automatically assume that will be the case? There are just so many ways you could make it work. It's all about the execution.
Well when you look at that scene Raditz said that he would leave Earth forever before Goku let go of his tail. So you can look at that scene as Goku just being very trusting to a fault which he has been throughout Dragon Ball. Again, the problem with your argument is that there's nothing explicitly showing Goku having any specific interest in his family other than him acknowledging that he's a Saiyan. For the Goku fighting Raditz with Piccolo thing, it really just shows how serious the the threat was to Goku given the fact that Raditz was pretty much able to one shot him in their first encounter. Goku is fine accepting help if he needs it and the stakes are high enough. That's just his character. He's done this with Vegeta, Freeza, and even Boo at the end. Heck even in the Resurrection F movie he purposely let the fight go on and on just so Freeza would run out of energy. In a way it can even be argued that grabbing the tail is a perfectly fine means of beating an opponent for Goku. Anyways going back to Gohan (or not), had Gohan been replaced by his best friend Kuririn, I'm quite sure Goku's reaction would have been exactly the same or even greater given that he wouldn't be able to revive him with the Dragon Balls. This can be seen in his reaction to Freeza's killing of Gohan back in Namek. Would Goku have an even greater reaction had it been Gohan? Maybe. But the there's nothing in particular to really back that up other than that Goku's probably spent more time with Gohan as he is Goku's son.
So that one small instance you brought up I just can't fully get behind.

Onto the second point. The reason I automatically think she's going to be a bad character are these two points; origins and relevance.

I agree, Goku does acknowledge himself as a Saiyan and has even shown some pride in his heritage however, despite that, he has no interest in exploring his lineage.
Don't forget there was also that scene where Goku pretty much said that he doesn't care if his people died (including parents) because they deserved it as they were bad people while he was fighting Freeza. Based on this piece of evidence and the fact that Goku has never really ever been shown to care about his lineage, there's hardly any chance that Goku would ever actively seek out a sister relative. Were Goku to randomly stumble upon her, he wouldn't care as I've mentioned before and have attempted to prove that Goku only truly cares about the people close to him (Yes he'll save people in peril, but he's never going to seek them out and chill with them) and that in a sense he does see his family as more friends really than family. He won't see her as a sister, but rather as a stranger which completely defeats the purpose of her being his sister in the first place. Also, the whole "Saiyan survivor thing" has at this point become a rather blah thing in general as it's happened multiple times with Tullece, Brolli, Bardock, and even Goku being the OG Saiyan survivor.

Now let's go on to relevance. The problem with making her too strong is that it causes her to mess with Goku's lineage as mentioned earlier. However, if we made her just some average nobody Saiyan then it would be very difficult to make her relevant to the story as Dragon Ball is a manga that generally focuses on people punching each other until one guy falls down. She could be a messenger of some sort, but that would cause her to fade quickly into the background just like Tarble. You say there are loads of ways to make her relevant to the story but the problem with that is that the story would have to wrap around her as a result which can cause many negative results as her character just doesn't fit in with the natural ebb that Dragon Ball has been following of introducing stronger and stronger foes to fight. As much as I hate to acknowledge it, I feel that an evil female Goku from universe 7 would go with the flow of the story a heck of a lot better than the idea of a sister of Goku suddenly appearing.

Anyways that's all I have to say on the matter. It's a bit messy, but I hope it was at the least somewhat understandable. If you still disagree with me that's totally cool as we could just agree to disagree I guess. Before I finish, I'm just going to say that a sister of Goku can definitely work if done properly, I just think that it's something I'd rather not see as I feel that it is a highly improbable thing to actually make work and enhance the story of Dragon Ball in any way. Anyways sorry for the late response. I was busy with stuff.

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by Tian » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:55 pm

Goku having a sister? it´s interesting but no.
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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by HourglassIndigo » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:18 pm

Draconic wrote:I think it could work... If she was Grandpa Gohan's lost kid or something like that. Another saiyan... No.
Ooh, I'd love to see a descendent of Grandpa Gohan join the Z fighters. Though i can't see how they'd keep up, especially if characters like Android 18, Tien, and Krillin are obsolete. From a writing standpoint it would be a nice idea to see a character like that.

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Re: What if Toriyama created a sister for Goku?

Post by Draconic » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:53 pm

HourglassIndigo wrote:
Draconic wrote:I think it could work... If she was Grandpa Gohan's lost kid or something like that. Another saiyan... No.
Ooh, I'd love to see a descendent of Grandpa Gohan join the Z fighters. Though i can't see how they'd keep up, especially if characters like Android 18, Tenshinhan, and Krillin are obsolete. From a writing standpoint it would be a nice idea to see a character like that.
Yeah, I don't know how would that work either, but it would be 100 times more interesting than another surviving Saiyan.
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