Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
The link basically takes you to a article which highlights some of the very best animation 2015 had offered, in the opinion author of the article. And all of the animation is made digitally. Here were some the examples provided in the article:
Spoiler:
No disrespect but those don't hold a candle to anything from ball-z-gt.
I don't think any of those look special in any way.
THAT is great animation at work. But hey to each their own. We clearly have different tastes but we both like anime.
Any post before 8/7/2016 isn't mine. This account was a gift from someone who thought the account was already banned. Saved me the trouble of making a new one haha XD
I love DB/DBZ/DBGT/DBZK/DBS (If I didn't why would I be here? XD)
THAT is great animation at work. But hey to each their own. We clearly have different tastes but we both like anime.
You can't be serious?
I mean... WHAT!?!
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
No disrespect but those don't hold a candle to anything from ball-z-gt.
I'm a Dragon Ball fanboy and a fan of classic animation, but... really? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree man. I at least hope you are referring to the art style and not the actual animation.
Also why did you link that picture of Vegetto? He looks kind of off model.
THAT is great animation at work. But hey to each their own. We clearly have different tastes but we both like anime.
You can't be serious.
I mean... what!?
It's called having a different opinion. I'm honestly shocked you call that stuff great because all I see is bad coloring. It's all perceptive. All just opinions.
I look at Nina Dobrev and see a beautiful woman, my friend looks at her and doesn't see her as extremely attractive because white girls aren't his thing. It's all just opinions. Different tastes is all.
I'm sure if we threw pictures left and right we'd find common ground eventually, but
1. I think our tastes are to far apart to bother
2. I'm and with posting pictures here. IDK how to use it properly. I'm a scrub to doing so I mean I copy and paste the URL in the IMG brackets but it never works. XD
Still point is I think my picture is beauty, you think your examples are. Sorry but that's the truth.
Any post before 8/7/2016 isn't mine. This account was a gift from someone who thought the account was already banned. Saved me the trouble of making a new one haha XD
I love DB/DBZ/DBGT/DBZK/DBS (If I didn't why would I be here? XD)
No disrespect but those don't hold a candle to anything from ball-z-gt.
I'm a Dragon Ball fanboy and a fan of classic animation, but... really? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree man. I at least hope you are referring to the art style and not the actual animation.
Also why did you link that picture of Vegetto? He looks kind of off model.
I like the design of the black haired girl. But the shine effect just mad me wanna vomit and ruined it for me. No I don't like the animation. People think wobbly overly fluid animation is the best but there's a thing called moderation. Some artists make things to wobbly and I personally don't like those. And a big problem is the colors...I'd enjoy it much more if it had cel animation because then the colors wouldn't be so damn shiny and bright. It's not pleasant on the eyes.
I don't find it off model, I think it looks great. And those colors....THOSE colors are beautiful. You can't do that with digital animation I wish toei wasn't so cheap and still used cels.
Any post before 8/7/2016 isn't mine. This account was a gift from someone who thought the account was already banned. Saved me the trouble of making a new one haha XD
I love DB/DBZ/DBGT/DBZK/DBS (If I didn't why would I be here? XD)
No disrespect but those don't hold a candle to anything from ball-z-gt.
I'm a Dragon Ball fanboy and a fan of classic animation, but... really? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree man. I at least hope you are referring to the art style and not the actual animation.
Also why did you link that picture of Vegetto? He looks kind of off model.
I like the design of the black haired girl. But the shine effect just mad me wanna vomit and ruined it for me. No I don't like the animation. People think wobbly overly fluid animation is the best but there's a thing called moderation. Some artists make things to wobbly and I personally don't like those. And a big problem is the colors...I'd enjoy it much more if it had cel animation because then the colors wouldn't be so damn shiny and bright. It's not pleasant on the eyes.
I don't find it off model, I think it looks great. And those colors....THOSE colors are beautiful. You can't do that with digital animation I wish toei wasn't so cheap and still used cels.
The left side of Vegetto's face in that picture is drawn a little off. Dragon Ball Super might look worse if cels were used due to the rushed production schedule. Super animators get about 4 weeks to work on episodes I believe, while Z got 6. Cels take even more time to do than digital animation from my understanding, so that would most likely put even more strain on the staff. Super probably wouldn't look "great" no matter how they animated it.
You can't really blame Toei for not using cels when no one uses them anymore. Like I said, I also love cels, but I have to give credit where credit is due when it comes to good looking digital animation. It's fine if you don't like it though.
Wezenheim wrote:The left side of Vegetto's face in that picture is drawn a little off. Dragon Ball Super might look worse if cels were used due to the rushed production schedule. Super animators get about 4 weeks to work on episodes I believe, while Z got 6. Cels take even more time to do than digital animation from my understanding, so that would most likely put even more strain on the staff. Super probably wouldn't look "great" no matter how they animated it.
You can't really blame Toei for not using cels when no one uses them anymore. Like I said, I also love cels, but I have to give credit where credit is due when it comes to good looking digital animation. It's fine if you don't like it though.
Digital animation never looks better then cels, but yeah you're right when it's good it deserves praise. Only 1 anime has good digital animation though, that's DXD. Just because others are being cheap doesn't give toei a pass.
Also it's rushed to 4 weeks because toei knows how much quicker digital is. If it was cels they give it 6, even with 4 the drawings would look better if the colors weren't so bad.
Look at this digital animation shot from the movie budgeted BOG.....because the digital coloring it looks like Goku has CUM on his body. It's disgusting and I can no longer eat while watching new dbz content. That annoys me.
Any post before 8/7/2016 isn't mine. This account was a gift from someone who thought the account was already banned. Saved me the trouble of making a new one haha XD
I love DB/DBZ/DBGT/DBZK/DBS (If I didn't why would I be here? XD)
I don't think Toei is rushing Super just because they have digital animation now. Their series PreCure is a testament to the fact that they can produce high quality digital shows. I don't know how much time the animators for PreCure get, but they either have their staff situated appropriately or they have more time.
Last edited by Wezenheim on Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
THAT is great animation at work. But hey to each their own. We clearly have different tastes but we both like anime.
The fluid motion, the dynamic camerawork, the wild body poses, the fast shifts in perspective, the emotion-drenched character expressions... none of these are criteria you notice? Is animation only about colors?
My apologies for coming across as blunt, but using a static image as an example of "great animation" is insane. Animation is movement. Judged by that category, the original Dragon Ball TV anime simply doesn't hold up when stacked against the best of digital animation, and this is coming from someone who loves the aesthetic of cels. Digital animation simply allows animators to do more with a equivalent budget compared to the days of cel animation: as this blog article points out.
Spoiler:
It is commonplace for the frames to be completed on a computer. After they are drawn and checked, they are digitized. Once they are on the computer, they are painted with a specified color palette by painting staff (generally a low paid job). They use the shading lines drawn by the key animators to do the shading colours. This digital equivalent of the ‘ink & paint’ stage of production, which used to be done by hand, has allowed some more interesting visual styles to come through in the colouring, such as the use of gradient shading or even textures. These would have been too difficult to do back in the day. It has also saved considerable time and money in the process. These become the final “cels” that go into the animation.
Once all the frames are coloured and finished, they can be processed as animation using a specialized software package. “RETAS! PRO” is used for approximately 90% of anime currently aired in Japan (for drawing sometimes too)! Before the use of digital ‘cels’ (digicels), drawings (printed onto cels) were actually filmed over backgrounds. Now, cuts are completed digitally, and the background art can be added on the computer. Initially, when digicel was first being picked up by studios (around about 2000), it had real problems matching the fineness of detail in hand-drawn and painted cels. But nowadays, anime studios have really perfected the digital cel, giving us anime with just as much detail and more vibrant colouring. The digicel age has now streamlined the production process such that repeated cels and clip/recap episodes are basically a thing of the past. Some still prefer the rougher look of pre-2000, but I’ve certainly moved on.
Of course, there were moments where old-school Dragon Ball animation shined, but those only happened when Toei poured a serious budget and talent into them. If you want an example to compare with the ones in the Anime News Network article, this amazing scene from Dragon Ball: The Path to Power would serve your purpose better.
Favorite Movies: Alien, Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back, The Thing, Evil Dead, The Land Before Time
Favorite Shows: Cardcaptor Sakura, Doctor Who, Wallace and Gromit, Wakfu, Yu Yu Hakusho
Favorite Manga: Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter x Hunter, Dragon Ball
Augenis wrote:The power level view into the series has trained a significant portion of the fan base into real life stereotypical members of the Freeza empire, where each and every individual is reduced to a floating number above their heads and any sudden changes to said number are met with shock and confusion.
THAT is great animation at work. But hey to each their own. We clearly have different tastes but we both like anime.
What...? Those look amazing. Better than Z and GT. And definitely much better than the image you posted. And there's even better examples from this year, imo. Toei is just very cheap regarding Dragon Ball. During the Z era, they were actually good most of the time, but nowadays they are just really cheap about it.
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
It's called having a different opinion. I'm honestly shocked you call that stuff great because all I see is bad coloring. It's all perceptive. All just opinions.
The colors themselves are much richer and deeper than the image you posted. They are pretty bland in the picture you posted.
Last edited by rereboy on Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
Sorry I'm not completely up to speed with how this forum works. Nobody ever explained it. When you respond to someone here and the response has 3 or more quotes it won't send. What exactly am I supposed to do then? Because it breaks up the yellow post boxes yes, but it's either that or no response at all. I can't be expected to just magically know how this forum works when it's so different from others. I'm not doing this to bother you if that's what you think.
Any post before 8/7/2016 isn't mine. This account was a gift from someone who thought the account was already banned. Saved me the trouble of making a new one haha XD
I love DB/DBZ/DBGT/DBZK/DBS (If I didn't why would I be here? XD)
Sorry I'm not completely up to speed with how this forum works. Nobody ever explained it. When you respond to someone here and the response has 3 or more quotes it won't send. What exactly am I supposed to do then? Because it breaks up the yellow post boxes yes, but it's either that or no response at all. I can't be expected to just magically know how this forum works when it's so different from others. I'm not doing this to bother you if that's what you think.
In that case you simply delete the oldest quote with your backspace/delete button in the text of your reply.
The way the quotes work is very simple. Everything that is written inside the written codes for a quote will appear as a quote. Example: *code for begigging of quote* bla bla bla *code for end of quote*. In this case the stated bla bla bla will appear as a quote. You can see what these codes for quotes are when you press to reply with a quote. And you can erase them or write them at will.
THAT is great animation at work. But hey to each their own. We clearly have different tastes but we both like anime.
The fluid motion, the dynamic camerawork, the wild body poses, the fast shifts in perspective, the emotion-drenched character expressions... none of these are criteria you notice? Is animation only about colors?
My apologies for coming across as blunt, but using a static image as an example of "great animation" is insane. Animation is movement. Judged by that category, the original Dragon Ball TV anime simply doesn't hold up when stacked against the best of digital animation, and this is coming from someone who loves the aesthetic of cels. Digital animation simply allows animators to do more with a equivalent budget compared to the days of cel animation: as this blog article points out.
Spoiler:
It is commonplace for the frames to be completed on a computer. After they are drawn and checked, they are digitized. Once they are on the computer, they are painted with a specified color palette by painting staff (generally a low paid job). They use the shading lines drawn by the key animators to do the shading colours. This digital equivalent of the ‘ink & paint’ stage of production, which used to be done by hand, has allowed some more interesting visual styles to come through in the colouring, such as the use of gradient shading or even textures. These would have been too difficult to do back in the day. It has also saved considerable time and money in the process. These become the final “cels” that go into the animation.
Once all the frames are coloured and finished, they can be processed as animation using a specialized software package. “RETAS! PRO” is used for approximately 90% of anime currently aired in Japan (for drawing sometimes too)! Before the use of digital ‘cels’ (digicels), drawings (printed onto cels) were actually filmed over backgrounds. Now, cuts are completed digitally, and the background art can be added on the computer. Initially, when digicel was first being picked up by studios (around about 2000), it had real problems matching the fineness of detail in hand-drawn and painted cels. But nowadays, anime studios have really perfected the digital cel, giving us anime with just as much detail and more vibrant colouring. The digicel age has now streamlined the production process such that repeated cels and clip/recap episodes are basically a thing of the past. Some still prefer the rougher look of pre-2000, but I’ve certainly moved on.
Of course, there were moments where old-school Dragon Ball animation shined, but those only happened when Toei poured a serious budget and talent into them. If you want an example to compare with the ones in the Anime News Network article, this amazing scene from Dragon Ball: The Path to Power would serve your purpose better.
Animation is how it looks. I feel some people think animation wrongly as they think game graphics as in "more detail or realism makes it better". :/
"AN" animation is when you make the pictures into something movie. Animation itself is how the show or movie looks. A good picture is or bad is the result of bad or good animation. Because the animation process is it being drawn.
No it's not just color, however if you were to draw super COMPELTELY on model, and had no flaws in the movement but you drew Majin buu a yellow throughout it......people would call it bad animation, because you're not getting the colors right! You can't make good animation if you have bad colors, and you can't make it with bad movement.
Animation is really subjective because it's how it looks, not how good they made pictures move. It's so much more then that. And like I said, this is all subjective. There's no "factual" better animation between say movie 12 or 13. One may call 13 better, the other says 12. Because when you compare animation it's just opinionated.
You say path to power is a good example of animation, I say it's the worst example along with a heroe's legacy special. I personally would use movie 5. But I can't call you wrong, only disagree. That's not what art/animation is about. It's about what you take out of it. Some people prefer GT's darker colors, I prefer Z's brighter colors. (and this is from a BIG GT who hates the haters.)
Also I love good camera work and such, I just hate when things are TOO fluid. Like say the Naruto vs pain fight. That was to fluid. Like they were made of flubber. There's a thing called moderation. It's why I think the old looney tunes cartoons were above the old Disney cartoons.
Animation also comes down to the design of the characters and background.
I don't care for body poses along as the ones you choose looks right. I don't need Vegeta putting his leg behind his head. Just his knee to frieza's gut.
Moderation is a key to all this. It won't look good if the colors aren't pleasing to the eyes, but if the movement is stiff it looks cheap. If you move around too much the animation still looks bad because it looks half assed and made cheap when you can't even have bodies move like bodies. If you punch vegeta in the face, then his check should have a dent, his whole body shouldn't do the Macarena.
Any post before 8/7/2016 isn't mine. This account was a gift from someone who thought the account was already banned. Saved me the trouble of making a new one haha XD
I love DB/DBZ/DBGT/DBZK/DBS (If I didn't why would I be here? XD)
Sorry I'm not completely up to speed with how this forum works. Nobody ever explained it. When you respond to someone here and the response has 3 or more quotes it won't send. What exactly am I supposed to do then? Because it breaks up the yellow post boxes yes, but it's either that or no response at all. I can't be expected to just magically know how this forum works when it's so different from others. I'm not doing this to bother you if that's what you think.
In that case you simply delete the oldest quote with your backspace/delete button in the text of your reply.
The way the quotes work is very simple. Everything that is written inside the written codes for a quote will appear as a quote. Example: *code for begigging of quote* bla bla bla *code for end of quote*. In this case the stated bla bla bla will appear as a quote. You can see what these codes for quotes are when you press to reply with a quote. And you can erase them or write them at will.
Not sure if I tried deleting just the oldest quote alone. Maybe I did like 2 or something and messed up. I'll do that next time. Thanks for the heads up
Any post before 8/7/2016 isn't mine. This account was a gift from someone who thought the account was already banned. Saved me the trouble of making a new one haha XD
I love DB/DBZ/DBGT/DBZK/DBS (If I didn't why would I be here? XD)
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:Animation is how it looks. I feel some people think animation wrongly as they think game graphics as in "more detail or realism makes it better". :/
Actually, animation is just how things move. How things look is much more than that, it includes coloring, art style, aesthetic sense and composition, etc.
An animated cartoon or an anime can be in black and white only, and it can have whatever art style the authors want, which proves that those factors, that certainly influence a lot how it ends up looking, are different from the animation.
But the examples that were posted look better than the image you posted, they don't just have superior animation.
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:Animation is how it looks. I feel some people think animation wrongly as they think game graphics as in "more detail or realism makes it better". :/
Actually, animation is just how things move. How things look is much more than that, it includes coloring, art style, aesthetic sense and composition, etc.
An animated cartoon or an anime can be in black and white only, and it can have whatever art style the authors want, which proves that those factors, that certainly influence a lot how it ends up looking, are different from the animation.
But the examples that were posted look better than the image you posted, they don't just have superior animation.
JUST?! That's insulting. Animators do more then just move. They design, they move, they color, they draw. It's more then just moving pictures. The animation team
Makes a design/concept art
draws them
colors it
make it move. Aniamtion is more then just movement. Why do you think people say episode 5 had bad animation when the characters drawings were so off?
That's a very narrow demeaning point of view.
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I love DB/DBZ/DBGT/DBZK/DBS (If I didn't why would I be here? XD)
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:Why do you think people say episode 5 had bad animation when the characters drawings were so off?
Because people have a very simplified and limited understanding of the medium they're watching, and use catch-all phrases in an attempt to explain what they don't otherwise have the proper vocabulary to describe.
Dare I say, much like you've proven time and time again in this thread. You clearly do not fully understand what you're trying to describe, and then get angry and lash out when other people try to explain it. This entire thing is very embarrassing for all parties involved, so let's try to make an attempt to bring it back around. Everyone needs to remember that you're probably not an expert on every single last thing about everything ever in the total history of ever.
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LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:Why do you think people say episode 5 had bad animation when the characters drawings were so off?
Because people have a very simplified and limited understanding of the medium they're watching, and use catch-all phrases in an attempt to explain what they don't otherwise have the proper vocabulary to describe.
Dare I say, much like you've proven time and time again in this thread. You clearly do not fully understand what you're trying to describe, and then get angry and lash out when other people try to explain it. This entire thing is very embarrassing for all parties involved, so let's try to make an attempt to bring it back around. Everyone needs to remember that you're probably not an expert on every single last thing about everything ever in the total history of ever.
Not mad or incorrect. You're the only one fitting either criteria. Sorry. No disrespect. Not even sure how you get "angry and lash out" from. You, sir need to learn to reward better because you keep seeing things in my posts that aren't there. You keep saying and attacking people or lashing out when I'm not being disrespect at all on any forum I'm on. No insult, no condescending. I even peacefully said we all got our own opinion and that I can't call anyone wrong for what they said because it's all subjective...but PLEASE tell me how that's angry and lashing out. XD
No disrespect to you but this whole thing is silly.
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:@LSSJGODSSJ4 you could support your argument if only you could show us what you considered to be good animation, with examples in fashion like this:
All I can do is post the link, I mess up gifs and stuff when I post it. So again sorry for inconvenience.
And again this is ALL subjective. Nothing the true best over the rest. It's all based on opinion. "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"!
Any post before 8/7/2016 isn't mine. This account was a gift from someone who thought the account was already banned. Saved me the trouble of making a new one haha XD
I love DB/DBZ/DBGT/DBZK/DBS (If I didn't why would I be here? XD)
I mean I copy and paste the URL in the IMG brackets but it never works. XD
