rereboy wrote:That's just marketing.
If I say that Goku is invincible regarding fighters much weaker than him as long as he keeps his guard up, and that Goku in SSJ, while he has his guard up, is indestructible and only a power that surpasses his SSj power can overcome the indestructibility of SSJ Goku with his guard up, you would say that SSJ Goku is indestructible and invincible? Of course not, that's just a fancy way of saying that someone weaker than Goku won't manage to hurt Goku unless he lets him or if he has his guard down.
That's the kind of fancy words they are using for Broly. Here's what they are actually saying: "LSSJ Broly is indestructible! Unless a character more powerful than him shows up and hits him with a big attack! If that happens, his LSSJ resistance will just break down and he will be defeated or die! Which means that, truthfully, LSSJ just gives him abnormal resistance against people already weaker than Broly or with pretty much the same power! So, Broly will still be defeated if someone stronger than him comes along, which isn't much different from any other character in Dragon Ball! But we still use terms like indestructible and invincible because they will cause controversy and boost the views of the fan manga, both from Broly fans and from non Broly fans!"
Broly lost and was hurt by Vegetto, meaning that its obvious that he isn't actually invincible or indestructible. You are just getting caught up in their marketing and in those terms instead of seeing exactly what are the differences between LSSJ Broly and the other characters. And the differences are: abnormal resistance to attacks that don't surpass his power, and the ability to become stronger as time goes by without training. There's no actual invincibility or invulnerability.
In movie 8, Broly, after beating the gang, instead of getting weaker after the energy he had spent beating them up, inexplicably states that his power is rising, and his power rises in a way that is actually uncomfortable for him, so he actually lets go a series of blasts, spending energy, to feel more comfortable.
Why that happens, why Broly's power is rising without any justification, when he is not even in battle anymore and while he isn't doing anything, is not explained.
The notion that Broly's power rises without explanation in LSSJ comes originally from that.
So, if you have a problem with that, blame movie 8. DBM didn't make up that scene. Broly's power rising inexplicably in LSSJ is something that is already in movie 8. If somebody was "fanboying" Broly by making him have rising power without an explanation, it was the guys that made movie 8. DBM is only trying to explain and make sense of that (while also using it in the tournament in a useful manner).
Btw, the notion of Broly having abnormal resistance agaisnt everything that doesn't surpass his power also comes from movie 8 due to the way that Broly shrugged off absolutely everything that was thrown at him without injury or even pause except the final blow that ended him. So, you can also blame movie 8 for that notion, since DBM also didn't come up with that, they just tried to explain it and develop it.
What is the actual difference between having Frost be a benevolent ruler of a big portion of universe 6, or Frost ruling benevolently thousands of planets on the other side of the regular universe?
What's the difference between the name of saiyans meaning justice in universe 6, and the name of saiyans meaning justice to thousands of planets on the other side of the regular universe?
That would be splitting hairs and it would be trying to argue that the exact number of planets where that happens is somehow very relevant. You don't need a multiverse for any of that.
(Or instead of the other side of the universe, another realm where they somehow went, similar to how Dabra's realm exists while still being part of the universe but not normally accessible. No need for an actual multiverse. There's only a need for it when there's actual alternate characters and situations)
Except, if you'll recall, SSJ3 Vegetto's attack did not kill Broli...it just sent him flying in space. At that moment, Vegetto clearly surpassed Broli...yet nothing happened. Not only is he alive, his body shows little damage at all. Just a few scuffs from an attack that surpassed him and sent him rocketing deep into space (and I spot checked it to make sure). That's more than just resistance to attacks below him. Anyone else weaker than that attack would have been atomized by then.
A Saiyan getting stronger when he gets angrier is pretty well known (and "Kakarot" sets Broli off like nothing else), but there was no indication that this happened before, or would happen forever.
Also, given how the creator of Broli reacted to Beerus being a God of Destruction and beyond Broli...he might have been fanboying him. That is possibly a topic worth discussing.
Once again, even during times Broli was inferior to Vegetto (including that final attack), he wasn't exactly taking much in the way of damage. He barely has any more scuffs after Vegetto's best attack at SSJ3 than he had earlier in the fight.
It's not just the size, it's the entire history leading up to it. If one universes sees some small time benevolent king from a family of genocidal maniacs, they'd have a totally different viewpoint from another universe that sees a ruler they have never felt threatened by or questioned based on past relations with his kind. The culture could differ, what kinds of people revolt could be different, the constant threat of war would change group dynamics drastically.
A race that is functionally the protectors of peace vs a few nice guys from that race of extinct genocidal space pirates? That can change your whole perspective. Their entire society would differ from that of the Saiyans, and probably even the Earth. It changes a lot.
There's more to Multiverses than Mirror Universes and "What if Superman landed in Russia or Nazi Germany instead of America". There's nothing wrong with having universes like those in a multiverse, but it's too limiting to just have those. It's far more creative to make them more distinct entities. The fact that U6 has so many distinctions from U7 despite being its twin really makes me excited to see more Universes. How different are they? Do they even function under similar laws of physics? Are there any traditional lifeforms? Or is everything beyond the normal definition of life? Now that's exciting.
Not sure how much longer we should continue the particular argument we're having (I would hate to disrupt the comic discussion itself too much), but yeah, despite disagreeing, you're totally entitled to your opinion, and civil discourse is quite enjoyable. I doubt anyone's going to hit Godwin's Law.
Skar wrote:Since you think Freeza's power-up isn't as bad then would you feel the same way if Broly trained for four months to surpass Vegetto instead? To me I would consider that worse than his power rising for 20 years. In the manga, regardless of potential the character still needed to learn how to train properly. That's pretty much the difference between Present and Future Gohan. One was trained by Goku, a master martial artist, while the other had to train on his own but was still many times weaker. Even Uub who should have the highest potential in the series couldn't learn to do anything on his own and needed Goku's guidance. I would consider it more ridiculous if Broly somehow taught himself how to train and then continuously learn new ways to train to surpass Vegetto all within the span of four months. That would imply Broly "outsmarted" Goku and Vegeta since he was able to learn much faster than they ever did. At least in DBM, Broly's LSSJ is a freak mutation that Broly has no control over and more of a curse. Freeza had no downside to his power-up other than it drains his power which could've been solved if he trained an extra few months. Broly loses all control in LSSJ and becomes a wild animal. His power would continue to rise until it eventually kills him and he's powerless to stop it unless someone "saves" him and knocks him out of the form.
I don't consider that "fanboying" over the character because he was treated as a throwaway obstacle to show off Vegetto's power. He could've been easily replaced with a stronger version of Kid Buu, Janemba, or an OC abomination that just wants to destroy everything. If he really wanted to have a Gary Stu version of Broly then there would've been one who somehow mastered his LSSJ form, gained full control over it, and then trained to surpass everyone.
What would the characters question? Both Goku and Vegeta are pure-hearted Saiyans and have already come to terms with the fact that most other members of their race were bad people. I'm sure Vegeta already regrets all the evil he's committed throughout his life. They'll probably consider it interesting how differently this universe developed but that might be it. I think the most we'll see is Vegeta visiting Planet Salad for a minutes and telling them about his universe with all of them being shocked.
My main issue with the whole Broli thing is how his powerup works in this first place. That said, a lot of why I'm less bothered by Freeza's powerup is how Freeza was as a character. He barely ever used his power or fought at all until all of his forces were lost, only getting out of his chair and into action when need be. Yet, despite that, he was so ridiculously strong. He wasn't a long trained warrior, some genetically modified monstrosity powered up to ridiculous levels, or some borderline C'thulian nightmare created by magic. He was a guy whom seemed to surpass all life in the universe with no effort on his part, and it took a legendary transformation of one of the greatest warrior races in the universe to finally take him down. That is a person I can buy has a lot of potential, if he puts out that much power pre-training. Like how strong Gohan was at the start,yet to a degree massively beyond him.
Hubris was Freeza's greatest weakness (even moreso than his new forms draining cost), and even if he did master it, I wonder if he wouldn't have gotten cocky enough at some point to cost him his victory in the end (perhaps having both Goku and Vegeta fight him together).
Literally page one was Broli fighting Vegetto, and he was hyped for most of his stay, and even after, with Buu seeking to absorb him for his power, and later another special where it requires SSJ2 Gohan, at least SSJ1 Vegeta, and SSJ3 Goku to send Broli into the Sun, where only detransforming killed him (apparently that combined power wasn't enough to defeat the Legendary SSJ). Also, no Bio-Broli, because Broli's a clone who doesn't get the most dignified end. Sorry, but it all comes off somewhat fanboyish.
Now that's all up to the writing. They could learn interesting things about traditional Saiyan culture or training to take with them. They could meet new allies to travel with them. Hell, maybe the interaction could totally change how Vegeta looks at Saiyan legacy and pride (for good or for ill). It all depends upon what the writers think to do with it.
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