Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

So how strong is base non god Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Botamo and the many forms of Frost?

Time to show some power levels.

what's base non-god goku?

He just became stronger due to absorbing power of SSG , not "godly ki"

[LightBing]

Why are some people creating the idea that people are disputing Piccolo power based on preferences. When everyone clearly presented arguments, the main one being the lack of mention of any special training or power gain. I don't think those kind of manufactured and attacking defenses belong on this forum.
The power levels are so far a mess, everybody is throwing ideas and theories. Why is there a need to force one's idea as the right one?

Regarding the two bases theory, I doubt something like that is implemented. It seems an over-complication, which is against Mr.Toriyama's idea of simplification.

Like I said here before, a retconning of the base power of Vegeta and Goku would clean everything nicely, if there's a need to. The only arguments for a Base=SSJG are present in BoG. How likely is that Mr.Toriyama changed his mind and what was shown in BoG isn't correct anymore? I'm jumping a little through hopes here but that would justify the: Base - SSJ - SSJB progression. The iconic SSJ transformation would be keep, the new one would still be around. More toys and stuff to sell.

[dbzfan7]

Why are some people creating the idea that people are disputing Piccolo power based on preferences. When everyone clearly presented arguments, the main one being the lack of mention of any special training or power gain. I don't think those kind of manufactured and attacking defenses belong on this forum.

Because even though some people may "say" they respect other people's opinions and theories, they can't simply disagree with them. No that other person must be wrong. Either agree with my vision, or you're wrong. It's kinda like how saying sorry over time has lost it's meaning.

[supercat]

I figure lengthy, wordy posts won't accomplish much in discussions pertaining to power scales so I shall break it down as simply as possible.

-There has been no evidence of Goku or that glory hog Vegeta having two separate base forms; I just dismiss that whole speculation as an excuse to downplay Piccolo while furthering the credibility of Goku and Vegeta. Until explicitly clarified, I find the most logic in SBG being the max power Goku and Vegeta have accessibility to in their base forms while regular SSJ (Champa) is equivalent to SSG (BoG). That said, I do believe that when Goku first became SSJ after his SSG transformation wore off, he was unable to retain all of his SSG powers; so if SSG = 6, SSJ (BoG) would likely have been around 5ish.

If I were to use numbers, I would adhere to the following:

Beerus 10

Goku (BoG):
SSG - 6
SSJ - 5
SBG - 3

Goku (RoF):
SBG (against Final Form Frieza) 3.5 - 4
SSGSS - 7.5

Goku (Champa):
SBG - 4.5
SSJ - 6.5
SSGSS - 8.5

Frost:
Assault form - 2
Final Form - 4.5 - 5
Final Form (worn down) - 3.5 - 4

Piccolo (Champa) - 3.5 - 4
SBC - 5

And then we just have fans who complain about other people being narrow-minded yet they themselves contribute to that by constantly bashing on what doesn't make sense to them.

[ssbgoku]

I am just so sure. Akira decided to upgrade or change fighting system in new dragon ball series, like dropping stamina or tactics and techniques making more impact on character instead of being just artificial for just being there. I mean getting exhausted seems to make your power level drop a lot.

We should also to wait with judgement for Vegeta to fight Frost and see if any comment about Piccolo getting stronger is made or not. Also even if there will be not any then any comment of Frost holding back for being nice guy but not needing to keep this in disguise could let him at full power now. Else this, or Frost focring Vegeta to use ssj without any visual power up or better feats.

For now:

max goku/vegta - 8
final form frost - 6.8
base goku/vegeta - 6.5
Assault form Frost - 4
Piccolo's beam attack - >3.5 <7
Holding back/exhausted frost - 3
First form frost - 1
Picoolo - 0.35

As I would have x10 multiplier for Picoolo's beam attack from his base. At least in Raditz invasion at the begining of boz Piccolo had power level 416 if I remember correctly while beam piercing attack was 1400, which would make 3.36 multiplier, so this is at least how much it boost it. Knowing that Tien could upgrade his Kikoho to super kikoho getting bigger multiplier I can see Picoolo doing the same so at least 5 multiplier

EDIT: AT the most I see Picoolo suprassing barely or being on par with rage ssj 2 vegeta

[Kaboom]

I seriously find it utterly disgusting yet hilarious how people... <snip>

People are free to theorize however they want and devise whatever explanation they think makes the most sense without being put down for it. Especially since Super has done so little to actually explain anything to begin with. There is no one "correct" outlook on this stuff until we're officially given one.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I have a question for some: To those that believe that base Goku & Vegeta with the power of Super Saiyan God are weaker than SSG Goku from BoG, why do you call them Saiyans beyond God? The "Saiyan beyond God" name was derived by the statement from Dragon Ball Heroes about base Goku from FnF been "a Saiyan that has surpassed God", which (to me at least) seem like a direct statement that base Goku from FnF is stronger than SSG Goku from BoG. How can this be interpreted otherwise?

[LowRyder2005]

Having reviewed the test scene just now, I don't see where this disconcertion you cited is.

It's way more apparent in the manga, actually (chpt. 8, page 8 ). Everyone has a "what a catastrophe" expression on their faces when they find out Buu is unable to compete.

I mean, this is Vegeta's reaction:


While it is true that Vegeta remarks first and foremost the fact they are one member short, I think the reaction would be way less justified - or outright silly? - if Buu was strictly speaking like a Krillin saying he would not compete in the Cell Game. Would you have imagined, again, Vegeta acting like that when he had found out Krillin wouldn't compete just because they were one person short... who everyone thought was actually useless compared to everyone else in the same team?
I simply think that if Buu was the only one who was extremely weak by a 10000% margin the scene wouldn't really make sense, it would be like screaming "this is a heavy economic blow to me" when you lost a dollar.

Of course, if the "Piccolo = God" claim will be proven true, this could amount to a mistake on Toyotaro's part. Some miscommunication between Toyotaro and Toriyama, maybe.
For now, though, this scene holds value and quite some reliability too: there haven't discrepancies in the power ratings thus far. And something like "Piccolo < Mr. Buu" and "Piccolo = Super Saiyan God" would be a really big one.

Buu also happens to possess one of the greatest reservoirs of stamina and regeneration in the series.

Yet Buu has been quite easily k.o.'d by a heavily suppressed Beerus (therefore a "very low God tier"), and everyone should be about aware that Buu would be useless against most or everyone from Universe 6 at the time the test took place. And those whom Buu could beat, Goku and Vegeta could possibly just finger-flick and defeat. The fact that these happened after they possibly had gauged those fighters themselves, means they most likely thought Buu could still take on one or more of them and considerably (stress on this) raise their chances of victory.

Goku's claims of Piccolo being too inferior to warrant any significant presence in the fights was already contradicted when we saw Frost's attacks being avoided and blocked.

True enough, but logically speaking saying this confirmed he is God tier is fallacious. There is no correlation if it is not a direct comparison with someone or something we know for certain to be God tier: like I told the other user, if Goku says "wow, you're actually almost as strong as Freeza" you'd have your conclusive claim. If he just says "wow, you got a lot stronger" it doesn't prove anything, it just means he was stronger than what he himself (Piccolo) was before and could amount to a +1, +10 or a +1000000000. I really didn't believe I needed to stress this part. You can't quantify something without a numerical value or some equivalent of a numerical value.

In responce to your citation of RandomGuy96 -- we don't know what the specifics of Piccolo's training during 10 year time skip entailed. He could have been busy sparring by himself in the wilderness or he simply meditated atop Kami's Lookout the whole time. Piccolo's power can multiply itself after less than a week of training on King Kai's -- far greater than that of Goku's who spent 6 months there instead of just 6 days -- yet we're arguing over whether he even surpassed Mr Buu while training with Gohan.

Of course it may be possible.
It's just that people are normally inclined to take the simpler explanation as preferable: again, while it is true that Piccolo may have been a prodigy on a level far beyond any Saiyan who hasn't received godly powers, he just has not been acknowledged as such. Maybe "not yet", but so far everyone acts like Piccolo is more or less the same from Revival of F.
Thus we are arguing, quite simply, because there are not comparative statements and Piccolo's power has been downplayed by the narrative so far. That's all there is to it.

[LowRyder2005]

I came to a conclusion from the points I listed which are almost certainly true as of now and I am getting told that the points are not true by LowRyder2005 even though they happened in the episode.

I'll try to be serious for one moment: you used those points you listed as justification you had found "conclusive proof" - implication of arguing that "why people won't accept Piccolo is God tier [as a fact]: there is X, Y and Z and they prove this". I just pointed out this is your viewpoint based on your interpretation of those "points" (or "you think that X, Y and Z are proof of A"), hence not a fact. There are people who may be operating in a different framework and justifying what happened with some different interpretations which are not "Piccolo is God tier", and you had plenty of examples in this kind of thread too, one where opinions are especially bound to be variegated and diversed.

A "fact" is something along the lines of "2 + 2 = 4", not " pizza is the best food in the world [because a lot of people say it is]".

[RandomGuy96]

I'm curious Random, what's your take on Gohan, Piccolo and Tagoma in the RoF arc.

It's pretty simple, in my view. Piccolo is marginally stronger than he was in the Buu arc. Ginyu-Tagoma is around the same strength as Kaioshin. Gohan completely lost his Ultimate power-up and he's around as powerful as he was at his strongest as a SS in the Buu arc; pitifully weak but still more than tough enough to wipe the floor with Tagoma. The shenanigans with base Gohan is just the anime being the anime, where Super Saiyan is like a x2 boost. If base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, he's still not very strong in general, maybe around a Cell Jr's level.

As for the current debate, I believe Piccolo is a lot stronger than he used to be but still much much weaker than Good Buu. I go with the logic that the way people treat Good Buu makes absolutely no sense if he's the weakest guy on the team. Much less so weak that any other member of the time is literally dozens of times stronger than him.

Piccolo's power can multiply itself after less than a week of training on King Kai's -- far greater than that of Goku's who spent 6 months there instead of just 6 days --

That's never confirmed anywhere.

yet we're arguing over whether he even surpassed Mr Buu while training with Gohan? I will grant that at the time of the Buu arc, his entering the ROSAT likely would not have been enough since he all but admitted that the Earth's fate rested in Goten and Trunks's hands.

Almost nothing has changed between now and then. Yet according to the logic that he's god-tier now, he could have entered that room for a few hours with, say, Goten, and come out strong enough to destroy Buu with one blast. I thought that these fights would finally prove that base Goku/Vegeta aren't all that strong, not that everyone else has somehow become god-level in a week.

[supercat]

Hey RandomGuy96, just out of curiosity, but are you a major fan of Buu or something?

I speculate that Mr. Buu failing the test had a few different reasons behind it. For one, his inability to fight at the same caliber as his comrades (including Piccolo), was likely one of the reasons why the writers decided to get rid of him like the useless fodder he is. Throwing him into the fray just so he could get one-shotted wouldn't have made any sense. I mean, if he was really all that high and mighty as some like to claim he is, wouldn't he have fought Frost instead of that "weakling" Piccolo?

Besides, I think Beerus beating Buu down was already enough of an indicator that he has long been reduced to an icon of the past (much akin to how Frieza was in the Android arc).

The show clearly has a track record of significantly powering up characters with story progression; there's really no reason or need to try and squeeze everyone into some low-balled tier. There has been zero implication that Piccolo, Tagoma, or anyone else that's recently been downplayed is merely on par with fighters from the Cell arc, whereas both new and existing characters have often hit new milestones time and time again.

Piccolo nearly trashed the same fighter who was able to tank several hits from SSJ Goku, who I feel is at least on par with his BoG SSG incarnation; being below Mr. Buu at this point just seems extremely unlikely.

On another note, I would be utterly disappointed if Vegeta won two matches, let alone three; something about his fighting style is just so uneventful. His arrogance and ego only amplify the distaste he exudes. If he somehow took a thrashing from Frost, it'd be amazing to say the least.

[RandomGuy96]

I speculate that Mr. Buu failing the test had a few different reasons behind it. For one, his inability to fight at the same caliber as his comrades (including Piccolo), was likely one of the reasons why the writers decided to get rid of him like the useless fodder he is. Throwing him into the fray just so he could get one-shotted wouldn't have made any sense. I mean, if he was really all that high and mighty as some like to claim he is, wouldn't he have fought Frost instead of that "weakling" Piccolo?

Strength has nothing to do with how much the writers like him. Gohan's stronger than Piccolo but he still got thrown in the dust bin. Him getting "one-shotted" by a Piccolo-tier opponent if he entered is something you just made up.

Besides, I think Beerus beating Buu down was already enough of an indicator that he has long been reduced to an icon of the past (much akin to how Frieza was in the Android arc).

This proves he's weaker than Piccolo how?

The show clearly has a track record of significantly powering up characters with story progression; there's really no reason or need to try and squeeze everyone into some low-balled tier. There has been zero implication that Piccolo, Tagoma, or anyone else that's recently been downplayed is merely on par with fighters from the Cell arc, whereas both new and existing characters have often hit new milestones time and time again.

There's zero implication that any of them are stronger than mid-tiers from the Cell arc, yet we're outright shown that they're really not all that, since SS Gohan is enough to wipe the floor with them.

Piccolo nearly trashed the same fighter who was able to tank several hits from SSJ Goku, who I feel is at least on par with his BoG SSG incarnation;

Good for you.

being below Mr. Buu at this point just seems extremely unlikely.

Ignoring all the logical issues I brought up earlier, Vegeta's reactions make no sense if Piccolo is somehow hundreds of times stronger than Buu. But not ignoring all the logical issues, please explain to me how the story makes an ounce of sense if Piccolo could become stronger than Super Vegetto so quickly.

[Lionel]

That's never confirmed anywhere.

This was Nail's exact quote...

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”

Considering the exact terminology used by Nail to describe Piccolo's power, it would have to be absolutely incredible for him to react in such a way. A flimsy multiplication of his Saiyan arc power by three or four wouldn't warrant such exaggeration. Nail would have already seen and felt worse in Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta and the Ginyu Force.

Also take note of Guru's acknowledgement of Kami and the prospect of Piccolo reemerging with him.

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

If we were to interpret this literally then the heaviest of indications point towards Piccolo being in the hundreds of thousands. Nail outright admitted that he had a good understanding of what Freeza's power was like. He fought him, was literally told what his maximum power level in first form was and he finally felt it for himself from afar as Freeza was powering up against Vegeta. In spite of this, he still felt confident enough in claiming that Piccolo might have stood a chance by merging back with Kami, who would increase his power by double if Guru was being literal.

Almost nothing has changed between now and then. Yet according to the logic that he's god-tier now, he could have entered that room for a few hours with, say, Goten, and come out strong enough to destroy Buu with one blast. I thought that these fights would finally prove that base Goku/Vegeta aren't all that strong, not that everyone else has somehow become god-level in a week.

At the time? No, he couldn't. But that's the issue with retconning. We were also initially lead to believe that Gohan and Vegeta were well past their own limits with the magical enhancements to their strength they received. Then new material from two decades into the future was released which necessitated even further growth of their power for the sake of the storyline. This isn't exactly the first leap and it probably won't be the last. Goku and the others used to be in the low/mid hundreds, then they all skyrocketed up into the thousands in a year's time. Come a month and some time later and the three strongest are now in the millions while even the weakest of the group is sitting at 75,000.

Characters like Piccolo always present some of the most contentious debates out there when it comes to relative strength, yet people are always so easy to accept the Saiyans making humongous leaps because of their physiology or whatever. It's like everyone else is assigned some arbitrary limit which they can't bypass while the Saiyans miraculously seem to have none.

[supercat]

I speculate that Mr. Buu failing the test had a few different reasons behind it. For one, his inability to fight at the same caliber as his comrades (including Piccolo), was likely one of the reasons why the writers decided to get rid of him like the useless fodder he is. Throwing him into the fray just so he could get one-shotted wouldn't have made any sense. I mean, if he was really all that high and mighty as some like to claim he is, wouldn't he have fought Frost instead of that "weakling" Piccolo?

Strength has nothing to do with how much the writers like him. Gohan's stronger than Piccolo but he still got thrown in the dust bin. Him getting "one-shotted" by a Piccolo-tier opponent if he entered is something you just made up.

Besides, I think Beerus beating Buu down was already enough of an indicator that he has long been reduced to an icon of the past (much akin to how Frieza was in the Android arc).

This proves he's weaker than Piccolo how?

The show clearly has a track record of significantly powering up characters with story progression; there's really no reason or need to try and squeeze everyone into some low-balled tier. There has been zero implication that Piccolo, Tagoma, or anyone else that's recently been downplayed is merely on par with fighters from the Cell arc, whereas both new and existing characters have often hit new milestones time and time again.

There's zero implication that any of them are stronger than mid-tiers from the Cell arc, yet we're outright shown that they're really not all that, since SS Gohan is enough to wipe the floor with them.

Piccolo nearly trashed the same fighter who was able to tank several hits from SSJ Goku, who I feel is at least on par with his BoG SSG incarnation;

Good for you.

being below Mr. Buu at this point just seems extremely unlikely.

Ignoring all the logical issues I brought up earlier, Vegeta's reactions make no sense if Piccolo is somehow hundreds of times stronger than Buu. But not ignoring all the logical issues, please explain to me how the story makes an ounce of sense if Piccolo could become stronger than Super Vegetto so quickly.

So yeah, I really am curious; are you a Majin Buu fan?

Actually, strength is a relevant variable here; if Buu really was worth anything, don't you think he would have been given at least one fight? The way I see it, he really has no place in the tournament; letting him get one-shotted would be far too uneventful while it would make zero sense for him to tangle with the same contenders that Goku and Vegeta would actually deem worthy.

Beerus humiliating Buu is likely an indicator that the latter is no longer the benchmark; this is actually quite akin to Trunks trumping Frieza shortly before disclosing the existence of beings that far exceed even his own tyrant-trumping strength. Now granted, Beerus' role is quite different from Trunks', but again, if we base things on the show's tendency to upgrade its characters substantially with each arc, we could speculate that the vast majority of, if not all relevant fighters will at least be somewhat close to him in strength.

And... you know how strong SSJ Gohan is because...? How do you know going SSJ wasn't his way of releasing his Ultimate power due to his lack of training? Bottom line is, neither you nor I have enough proof to come to a conclusion here.

Hey, if you're upset about Buu becoming a long forgotten weakling of the past I get it; but the fact is, Piccolo's performance against Frost was apparently quite stellar.

Piccolo could very well be stronger than SSJ Vegetto, but I'd say that's debatable until we get further clarification. That said, placing the former somewhere in the same realm of power as Buutenks / Buuhan is reasonable, as he did apparently perform a tad better than Ultimate Gohan during their sparring match.

[Hugo Boss]

We are interpreting the events of the episode completely differemt and almost the complete pposite every time. Piccolo knew he could take Frost in final form but was trying to get an advantage and Frost then mocked him and that is when Piccolo said everyone is underestimating him.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this conclusion. We can interpret things differently, that's totally right. But accusing someone of wankers, fanboys or haters is stupid. We share our views and people chose what is more likely. It would be very hypocrital of my part to say I don't have preferences, but we are suposed to be mature enough to not force them on others.

[RandomGuy96]

Actually, strength is a relevant variable here; if Buu really was worth anything, don't you think he would have been given at least one fight? The way I see it, he really has no place in the tournament; letting him get one-shotted would be far too uneventful while it would make zero sense for him to tangle with the same contenders that Goku and Vegeta would actually deem worthy.

You still have absolutely no proof for any of this. If that was the point why wasn't Gohan allowed to join?

Beerus humiliating Buu is likely an indicator that the latter is no longer the benchmark; this is actually quite akin to Trunks trumping Frieza shortly before disclosing the existence of beings that far exceed even his own tyrant-trumping strength. Now granted, Beerus' role is quite different from Trunks', but again, if we base things on the show's tendency to upgrade its characters substantially with each arc, we could speculate that the vast majority of, if not all relevant fighters will at least be somewhat close to him in strength.

That doesn't make any sense. Good Buu was already shit-tier compared to the last villain. Beerus curb-stomping him serves the same purpose as him curb-stomping Piccolo.

And... you know how strong SSJ Gohan is because...?

Because we know from the Buu arc how strong SS Gohan is?

How do you know going SSJ wasn't his way of releasing his Ultimate power due to his lack of training?

Because that's never remotely implied anywhere and you just made up that up out of whole cloth?

Piccolo could very well be stronger than SSJ Vegetto, but I'd say that's debatable until we get further clarification. That said, placing the former somewhere in the same realm of power as Buutenks / Buuhan is reasonable, as he did apparently perform a tad better than Ultimate Gohan during their sparring match.

He doesn't even have the fully outlined eyes. You're making stuff up again.

Considering the exact terminology used by Nail to describe Piccolo's power, it would have to be absolutely incredible for him to react in such a way. A flimsy multiplication of his Saiyan arc power by three or four wouldn't warrant such exaggeration.

In your opinion.

Nail would have already seen and felt worse in Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta and the Ginyu Force.

And the guy he's encountering now was 1/5 as strong as a Saibaman last he heard.

Also take note of Guru's acknowledgement of Kami and the prospect of Piccolo reemerging with him.

If we were to interpret this literally then the heaviest of indications point towards Piccolo being in the hundreds of thousands.

It's clearly not meant literally, as the original Nameless Namek was clearly far more than twice as strong as King Piccolo.

At the time? No, he couldn't. But that's the issue with retconning.

There's not even a retcon here, just people making the most illogical assumptions they can. So no, you don't get to entirely forget about everything established before this point.

Goku and the others used to be in the low/mid hundreds, then they all skyrocketed up into the thousands in a year's time. Come a month and some time later and the three strongest are now in the millions while even the weakest of the group is sitting at 75,000.

With zenkais. Does Piccolo have zenkais? Does he have any new power-up that would explain such an illogical development?

[ZombieVito]

Beerus: If you'd fought at full power, it would have been an easy win!
Goku: W-Well yeah, but...
Goku: I thought Super Saiyan would be enough, but I lost even with that!

Doesn't this imply that the Super Saiyan form is not weak?

[Hugo Boss]

Doesn't this imply that the Super Saiyan form is not weak?

Not really. It implies Super Saiyan is not his strongest form and that it should be enough to defeat Frost.

[RandomGuy96]

Doesn't this imply that the Super Saiyan form is not weak?

Not really. It implies Super Saiyan is not his strongest form and that it should be enough to defeat Frost.

Yeah, pretty much. All this tells us is that it's way stronger than his base and much weaker than his full power.

[ZombieVito]

I was thinking, could it be that because Piccolo was accumulating ki for the Makankosappo that is body was able to resists Frost's attacks?

I know Raditz said that the ki was concentrated on his finger tips but Piccolo could have perfected the attack to allow this.