In defensive of criticism

[chickensguys]

In defensive of criticism (A scathing dissent of super, the culture and the purists)

I shall now speak on behalf of the Toonami viewership from the late 90s and early 2000s in-defense of criticism. A huge segment of the Dragon Ball fan base came into existence when Toonami decided to aire Dragon Ball & by all accounts it was met with overwhelming success. Today these same people are now in their early to mid 20s and are being subjected to the pompous purists of the original manga. These older purists, the ones who purchased VHS fan subs in the early to mid 90s, and lived before the anime renaissance period, claim that the Toonami fan base from the late 90s and early 2000s are treating dragon ball super unfairly. This could not be further from the truth. Early Dragon Ball fans(The purists) have seen some major shit, shitty fan subs, shitty early games, shitty VHS animation, after all they were alienated for liking something which at the time belonged in the annals of obscurantism. Today, these same fans stand together in solitary and should be considered nothing more than apologists.

They defend the indefensible and lay accusations of unjustly harsh criticism on those who refuse to stand with the untenable. As a result these sorts of people are the worst kinds of fans. They learn to be happy with mediocrity, and they willfully seek to deny legitimate grievances.

For example, horrendous animation should be met with disdain and outrage. Our conscientious should not allow us to simply say “The Cell Arc had terrible animation as well”. Why must we couch our criticism in this way! Just because Dragon Ball has a record of ebbing and flowing in terms of quality and is fairly inconsistent this should never be misconstrued to suggest that the present circumstances are somehow okay or acceptable. The shitty animation of DBZ was never okay but we lived in a time where our collective outrage could not be heard. Hell we were kids watching a show, we didn’t have the most factious eye but we did know some episodes were better and some were worst. We had the normative understanding necessary.

So when Dragon Ball Super decides to waste 20ish episodes retelling battle of gods, makes shitty animation, uses failed choreography, and manages to slowly rot a series that had the potential for so much, damn right I will be an unforgiving and harsh critic. Dragon Ball Super has absolutely no excuses, they choose to rush the series and they choose the animation studio. There are great examples of this being done right. Madhouse did Hunter X Hunter and One Man Punch, they did it on a reasonable budget and have some of the most consistent and most lovely animation possible.

Dragon Ball Super is anime done wrong, so quit defending it. Just because the super old purists have been drug through the mud for so long doesn’t mean the rest of the fan base should be drug along too. Don’t let them tell you it is okay to be drug through the mud. Don’t let them tell you it is acceptable to be drug through the mud. Don’t let them tell you that you want to be drug through the mud. Just because the purists lived in the mud doesn’t mean we should!

We live in a house.

[saiyanvegetable]

In defensive of criticism (A scathing dissent of super, the culture and the purists)

I shall now speak on behalf of the Toonami viewership from the late 90s and early 2000s in-defense of criticism. A huge segment of the Dragon Ball fan base came into existence when Toonami decided to aire Dragon Ball & by all accounts it was met with overwhelming success. Today these same people are now in their early to mid 20s and are being subjected to the pompous purists of the original manga. These older purists, the ones who purchased VHS fan subs in the early to mid 90s, and lived before the anime renaissance period, claim that the Toonami fan base from the late 90s and early 2000s are treating dragon ball super unfairly. This could not be further from the truth. Early Dragon Ball fans(The purists) have seen some major shit, shitty fan subs, shitty early games, shitty VHS animation, after all they were alienated for liking something which at the time belonged in the annals of obscurantism. Today, these same fans stand together in solitary and should be considered nothing more than apologists.

They defend the indefensible and lay accusations of unjustly harsh criticism on those who refuse to stand with the untenable. As a result these sorts of people are the worst kinds of fans. They learn to be happy with mediocrity, and they willfully seek to deny legitimate grievances.

For example, horrendous animation should be met with disdain and outrage. Our conscientious should not allow us to simply say “The Cell Arc had terrible animation as well”. Why must we couch our criticism in this way! Just because Dragon Ball has a record of ebbing and flowing in terms of quality and is fairly inconsistent this should never be misconstrued to suggest that the present circumstances are somehow okay or acceptable. The shitty animation of DBZ was never okay but we lived in a time where our collective outrage could not be heard. Hell we were kids watching a show, we didn’t have the most factious eye but we did know some episodes were better and some were worst. We had the normative understanding necessary.

So when Dragon Ball Super decides to waste 20ish episodes retelling battle of gods, makes shitty animation, uses failed choreography, and manages to slowly rot a series that had the potential for so much, damn right I will be an unforgiving and harsh critic. Dragon Ball Super has absolutely no excuses, they choose to rush the series and they choose the animation studio. There are great examples of this being done right. Madhouse did Hunter X Hunter and One Man Punch, they did it on a reasonable budget and have some of the most consistent and most lovely animation possible.

Dragon Ball Super is anime done wrong, so quit defending it. Just because the super old purists have been drug through the mud for so long doesn’t mean the rest of the fan base should be drug along too. Don’t let them tell you it is okay to be drug through the mud. Don’t let them tell you it is acceptable to be drug through the mud. Don’t let them tell you that you want to be drug through the mud. Just because the purists lived in the mud doesn’t mean we should!

We live in a house.

Re: Z's shitty animation argument. Z's worst was better than what Super has put out. That Piccolo fight was just another example of mediocrity Super has been conditioning purists to accept.

[Dbzk1999]

No offense, but I really hope this gets locked. It's going to cause nothing but arguments and feels more like a bait thread than anything else

[Kamiccolo9]

Having not seen Super, and not really having any desire to, you do realize that this entire argument could be used against fans of the early Funi dub, right? "Stop defending the undefendable. Excusing the inexcusable. Etc." Especially since the main requirement of being a fan of the dub is excusing mediocrity.

Personally, I'm in the position of "If it pisses you off that much, then just don't watch it." Bitching about it ad infinitum just gets it more attention. If you want to make your displeasure known, just ignore it. Toei isn't gonna care about the opinions of fans who pirate the material anyway, which is what 90% of those complaining about it are.

[Cipher]

"In defense of."

"Dragged through the mud."

This post is written like one of the papers from the freshman composition class I teach.

[chickensguys]

"In defense of."

"Dragged through the mud."

This post is written like one of the papers from the freshman composition class I teach.

My apology for not taking the requisite time to create perfect prose or even proofread my forum post.

As for your exceedingly petty remark that does not address the content of the post. I will simply assert that your behavior is the sort of detestable behavior that the anime world should hate. Back to the content of my writing, this assumption that the toonami generation is making unfair criticisms is ridiculous and people that adhere to your style of tactics are not only petty but neither helpful nor worthy of the community's time.

[MajinMan]

What the hell is this post supposed to prove? Do you realize that these "purists" also criticize Super? Your whole "we must stand together as Toonami era fans and be better than these purists" is the very reason some people don't take that era of people seriously. I'm also from that era, but I cannot in any way relate to what you're saying.

[Ajay]

W-What the hell did I just read?! What a baffling post.

I think it's interesting to observe the trends found regarding the response to Super. Everyone was happy, then episode 5 happened, then the complaints appeared in huge waves, and eventually an anti-complaints committee appeared. So we're in this weird back and forth between people with valid criticisms and people who pass that off as "needless complaining".

That's an interesting discussion to have. Whatever this weird made-up divide you've conjured is not.

[generalred3]

Do we really need another one of these threads? Literally every episode thread in the Super Forum covers this. Every single one....

[Cipher]

As for your exceedingly petty remark that does not address the content of the post. I will simply assert that your behavior is the sort of detestable behavior that the anime world should hate. Back to the content of my writing, this assumption that the toonami generation is making unfair criticisms is ridiculous and people that adhere to your style of tactics are not only petty but neither helpful nor worthy of the community's time.

It was a petty remark because this is a ridiculous grand-standing thread you couldn't even put basic rhetorical effort into. You replaced "consciences" with "conscientious." I couldn't even begin to capture everything missed in that post. Effort put into equals effort returned.

People know Super is a very rough production. Every week we have informed and well-spoken members like Ajay offering valid criticism to that effect. There's no "Toonami generation" divide--just a bad production and useful and less useful ways to discuss it.

[saiyanvegetable]

Having not seen Super, and not really having any desire to, you do realize that this entire argument could be used against fans of the early Funi dub, right? "Stop defending the undefendable. Excusing the inexcusable. Etc." Especially since the main requirement of being a fan of the dub is excusing mediocrity.

Personally, I'm in the position of "If it pisses you off that much, then just don't watch it." Bitching about it ad infinitum just gets it more attention. If you want to make your displeasure known, just ignore it. Toei isn't gonna care about the opinions of fans who pirate the material anyway, which is what 90% of those complaining about it are.

That's basically the point - to get it more attention. As you said, most people pirate the episodes but a good chunk of money comes from the products those episodes in effect sell. To put it bluntly most shounen are big flashy toy commercials, but Super does it so blatantly that we have even Akira Toriyama (though he has much to blame on himself as well) voicing his displeasure over the series.

Even if the point is to sell more merchandise, we've still gotten enjoyable series like naruto, one piece, hunter x hunter, etc. because there were still significant standards each studio was reaching. To simply ignore it and not say anything means that soon Super's standards will become as an acceptable benchmark in not only the future of the dragonball franchise but other anime as well. Whether it's toei being stretched too thin, or just whoring out the dragonball franchise as cheaply as possible it's such an asinine thing to say "just ignore it." Especially if you're a fan.

[Kamiccolo9]

Having not seen Super, and not really having any desire to, you do realize that this entire argument could be used against fans of the early Funi dub, right? "Stop defending the undefendable. Excusing the inexcusable. Etc." Especially since the main requirement of being a fan of the dub is excusing mediocrity.

Personally, I'm in the position of "If it pisses you off that much, then just don't watch it." Bitching about it ad infinitum just gets it more attention. If you want to make your displeasure known, just ignore it. Toei isn't gonna care about the opinions of fans who pirate the material anyway, which is what 90% of those complaining about it are.

Even if the point is to sell more merchandise, we've still gotten enjoyable series like naruto, one piece, hunter x hunter, etc. because there were still significant standards each studio was reaching. To simply ignore it and not say anything means that soon Super's standards will become as an acceptable benchmark in not only the future of the dragonball franchise but other anime as well. Whether it's toei being stretched too thin, or just whoring out the dragonball franchise as cheaply as possible it's such an asinine thing to say "just ignore it." Especially if you're a fan.

If you ignore it, then they aren't making money off of it.

There's a reason why "speaking with your wallet" is the most effective form of customer feedback.

[SSJSonGokuu]

I'm gobsmacked how patient the animators are drawing for hours in little cubicles.

[Dbzk1999]

Having not seen Super, and not really having any desire to, you do realize that this entire argument could be used against fans of the early Funi dub, right? "Stop defending the undefendable. Excusing the inexcusable. Etc." Especially since the main requirement of being a fan of the dub is excusing mediocrity.

Personally, I'm in the position of "If it pisses you off that much, then just don't watch it." Bitching about it ad infinitum just gets it more attention. If you want to make your displeasure known, just ignore it. Toei isn't gonna care about the opinions of fans who pirate the material anyway, which is what 90% of those complaining about it are.

That's basically the point - to get it more attention. As you said, most people pirate the episodes but a good chunk of money comes from the products those episodes in effect sell. To put it bluntly most shounen are big flashy toy commercials, but Super does it so blatantly that we have even Akira Toriyama (though he has much to blame on himself as well) voicing his displeasure over the series.

Even if the point is to sell more merchandise, we've still gotten enjoyable series like naruto, one piece, hunter x hunter, etc. because there were still significant standards each studio was reaching. To simply ignore it and not say anything means that soon Super's standards will become as an acceptable benchmark in not only the future of the dragonball franchise but other anime as well. Whether it's toei being stretched too thin, or just whoring out the dragonball franchise as cheaply as possible it's such an asinine thing to say "just ignore it." Especially if you're a fan.

How is it asinine when it's a plain fact? Ignore = No money gained. As kamicolo said, speak with your wallet

[saiyanvegetable]

Having not seen Super, and not really having any desire to, you do realize that this entire argument could be used against fans of the early Funi dub, right? "Stop defending the undefendable. Excusing the inexcusable. Etc." Especially since the main requirement of being a fan of the dub is excusing mediocrity.

Personally, I'm in the position of "If it pisses you off that much, then just don't watch it." Bitching about it ad infinitum just gets it more attention. If you want to make your displeasure known, just ignore it. Toei isn't gonna care about the opinions of fans who pirate the material anyway, which is what 90% of those complaining about it are.

That's basically the point - to get it more attention. As you said, most people pirate the episodes but a good chunk of money comes from the products those episodes in effect sell. To put it bluntly most shounen are big flashy toy commercials, but Super does it so blatantly that we have even Akira Toriyama (though he has much to blame on himself as well) voicing his displeasure over the series.

Even if the point is to sell more merchandise, we've still gotten enjoyable series like naruto, one piece, hunter x hunter, etc. because there were still significant standards each studio was reaching. To simply ignore it and not say anything means that soon Super's standards will become as an acceptable benchmark in not only the future of the dragonball franchise but other anime as well. Whether it's toei being stretched too thin, or just whoring out the dragonball franchise as cheaply as possible it's such an asinine thing to say "just ignore it." Especially if you're a fan.

How is it asinine when it's a plain fact? Ignore = No money gained. As kamicolo said, speak with your wallet

Unfortunately Dragonball merchandise falls under a much larger umbrella so it's not as strong as an argument, though I won't be buying any Super specific merchandise that's for sure.

[Draconic]

It's threads like this that sometimes make me embarrassed to be Dragon Ball fan. I really can't fathom that I can be put into the same category as people like this, and therefore not taken seriously. You don't see this with any other anime, or manga, or comic book or animated show. The disrespect Dragon Ball fans get in general is immense and the cause is embodied exactly in this guy.

And before people call me crazy, just to give an example, Comic Vine has banned Dragon Ball characters from their "Battles" sub-forum (this happened a long time ago, but I'm just getting my point across).
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/ba ... 1767034/#1
Do you think something like this would happen if Dragon Ball fans were not viewed as stupid?

YOU are the problem. You can like the dub just fine, without making a "call to arms and unity" whenever it is pointed that the mediocre stuff you watched on TV has nothing to do with Dragon Ball. I am not a purist, I have standards. You should grow some.

And that's it. I am not going to reply further to this thread, but this had to be said. If it gets me a strike, well... fine, but it's a fact and can't be hidden.

[ABED]

I call bull, every fandom has their nutcases.

[successoroffate]

This is not "defending of criticism" this is just pure and utter trolling.

[gokaiblue]

There are times the Dragon Ball fanbase reminds of the Sonic fandom. This "essay" is one of those times.

[Ree]

how is he a troll??
you dont have to agree with him but he did not harass anyone. he's insulting Super, not any person.