Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

I didn't know Dodoria had a power level of 22,000. I always thought that it was 19,000 or 20,000 for some reason. He wasn't that off guard because Dodoria was the one who made the first move.

I dunno, it just makes sense that Shisami from the movie and Tagoma from the series would be the same strenght. I don't know for certain but wasn't it Tagoma who fought Piccolo in the movies script? And then changed it to Shisami? I know something was different between the script and the movie.

If it's just a different character but in the same role then I don't see why the powers would be different. It's like saying Beerus or Sorbet is stronger in the movie compared to the series or vice versa.

Piccolo and Gohan were shown to be even. Unless were supposed to believe that Piccolo improved at a faster rate than Gohan.

It just seems much simpler to assume that Piccolo wearing the weights against Tagoma was what held him back when compared to when he fought Shisami.

[apex_pretador]

Well the gap between Vegeta and Dodoria was also about 25% and he fried him almost instantly.

Also Tagoma did have an emphasis on his durability. It might be possible that even if he and Piccolo were equal in power that Tagoma could still be much more resilient. Like how Piccolo and #17 were equal but Piccolo said #17 was fast but didn't have much of a punch.

Tanking the punch doesn't really matter. What matters is this:

Tagoma > Ginyu force > Piccolo = Frost > Base goku > Final form freeza >> First form freeza >> Tagoma

Or, ginyu force >> Final from freeza

________
The way tagoma beat piccolo puts him atleast PC level IMO, and how SS gohan one-shotted ginyu-tagoma, puts him above Majin vegeta.

So, there is no way 1st form freeza is below fat buu (pre split) atleast.
Since freeza said "I'll jump straight to final form" , his forms should still be included. So, there is not a chance that final form F is below super buu. This is where base goku RoF is atleast - mystic gohan.

[Khin]

Dodoria was off guard when he got killed.He was running away,and Vegeta fired a blast at him.

[Hugo Boss]

If you continue on reading the following note, this is Gohan breaking the fourth wall. This isn't a line within the story itself.

Still doesn't change the fact that it comes from the series itself. It's stronger evidence than fan-theories.

No, it's Gohan narrating the next episode. The series itself is another thing. It's not a fan-theory that Gohan didn't affect Tagoma, they are clearly different in power.

Gohan says almost the same thing in the episode itself.

What exactly does he say? Suposing he uses exactly the same words "at least on par with his own" doesn't mean Tagoma was as powerful as Gohan, the line is vague enough to be interpreted like Tagoma being possibly more powerful than Gohan. That's what happened when he went to help Piccolo.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Dodoria wasn't really off-guard. He pretty much knew he had no chance to do anything, which is why he tried to flee. The blast would've obliterated him regardless.

As for Tagoma, I think he was around Fat Boo (before split) or possibly a bit stronger. With the way Trunks and Goten reacted to his power, I can't see him being much different from the highest powers in the Boo saga.

[RandomGuy96]

I've still never seen a reason to rate Tagoma above SS Gohan from the Buu arc, seeing as how a version of Gohan that's by all indications weaker than that kicked his ass.

[Neon Z]

In the tv show, Shisami is still somehow considered powerful by Kuririn. So, I think he really needs to be above Ginyu Force level even there. The comparison between Ginyu and Tagoma made by Sorbet just doesn't line up well with any other showing in the arc.

I didn't know Dodoria had a power level of 22,000. I always thought that it was 19,000 or 20,000 for some reason. He wasn't that off guard because Dodoria was the one who made the first move.

I dunno, it just makes sense that Shisami from the movie and Tagoma from the series would be the same strenght. I don't know for certain but wasn't it Tagoma who fought Piccolo in the movies script? And then changed it to Shisami? I know something was different between the script and the movie.

The difference between the script and the final movie is that Shisami wasn't part of that whole "as good as Dodoria and Zarbon" scene, since he wasn't even meant to be part of Freeza's original army, but rather a powerful mercenary hired for the Earth invasion. The final movie cut the whole plot about Freeza's army hiring mercenaries though, since Toriyama didn't write any actual scenes about it, just had that as a commentary around the actual scripted scenes, so they threw Shisami in that early scene in order to give him some kind of introduction before his battle with Piccolo.

I've still never seen a reason to rate Tagoma above SS Gohan from the Buu arc, seeing as how a version of Gohan that's by all indications weaker than that kicked his ass.

That one is a combination of things.

-Base Goku apparently being weaker than Freeza according to Beerus in both movie and Super.
-Base Gohan in the RoF arc being shown to be stronger than Piccolo (and also said to be the strongest one in the group in Toriyama's short description for the group battle in the RoF movie).
-Piccolo having gotten stronger than Freeza during the Cell Saga and there being no indication that he ever became any weaker.
-In the RoF arc, Gohan notices that he can't draw out his full power while fighting, rather than while attempting and failing to transform or power up into some other form, which lines up with Ultimate not really being a transformation.

Combining all those elements, it seems like RoF Gohan is just meant to be a weakened Ultimate Gohan, rather than Gohan having lost all the power from the Buu arc. So, the SSJ Gohan that easily beat Tagoma could actually be closer to Ultimate Gohan than to SSJ Gohan in the beginning of the Buu Saga. Of course, that concept has its own questionable elements too, mostly due to all the vagueness and contradictions regarding the Kai's ritual in the recent material (The original BoG's movie had Gohan basically "transforming" into his old Buu Saga design while powering up into Ultimate. However, in Super's version of BoGs, he just had a standard powering up sequence before attempting to face Beerus, with no design changes that indicate a form change. In both of them though, he did have full outline eyes, before and after powering up, rather than the open eyes that he got back in RoF - although there's also the matter that it was stated in the Buu Saga originally that his physical appearance didn't change at all, so eye outlines might just be a stylistic detail that don't matter).

[LowRyder2005]

I think some Perfect Cell-ish tier is perfect (*ba-dum tss*) for Tagoma. Piccolo after the ROSAT is considerably stronger (so he most likely had reached Semi-Perfect Cell or at most Dai ni Dankai Vegeta), but his further gains are supposed to be negligible.

In any way, given how Gohan handles Tagoma he looks more like Super Saiyan Goku against, say, Yakon in the Buu arc.

If you do, however, add the fact that Gohan is not sure he can even go Super Saiyan, when he was able to do so in the ROF, you may want go back to mid-ROSAT tier for Gohan. All in all, though, there is still the fact that the Buu Arc Gohan should theoretically have been weaker than Perfect Cell in his normal Super Saiyan form (Perfect Cell > Super Saiyan Gohan from Cell Games > Super Saiyan Gohan from the Bu ARc)... and it greatly weakens this particular line of reasoning.

I'd say:

Perfect Cell: 1
Tagoma: 0.65
Tagoma (Gyniu): 0.95

Piccolo (Cell Arc): 0.30
Piccolo (ROF): 0.40

Buu Arc Gohan (SS): 0.90
ROF Arc Gohan (SS): 1.5

I'll leave out Super Buu and Chou Gohan for obvious reasons. Regardless, Chou Gohan could be dozens of times (or even a couple hundreds, your mileage may vary a lot within the Buu Saga) stronger than that, so I would personally cast off the "SS ROF Gohan <= Ultimate Gohan", with the "he's more or less like Buu Saga Arc Gohan" being overall more faithful.

[singsing]

Alright haven't been keeping up here, why do I see the majority of people on Reddit claiming that Goku got 50x stronger?

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

Alright haven't been keeping up here, why do I see the majority of people on Reddit claiming that Goku got 50x stronger?

I probably have no idea what you're referring to, but I'll take a shot at it anyway.

It was stated in some databook that the Super Saiyan transformation is 50x stronger than base Goku. So I'm guessing people assume SSGSS is 50x than SSG or something like that.

[buutenks]

Hmm IMO:

Rof

Piccolo=cell jr
Base Gohan=ssj buu arc gohan
ssj gohan=ssj3 goku
Tagoma/Ginyu=SPC/ssj2 kid gohan

Uni6 arc

Piccolo=kid buu/good buu
Gohan=Ultimate gohan(no need to go ssj to tap in that power due to being now in shape)
Goku=ssj3 /ssj goku=ssj1 vegetto/ssj blue=90% of Beerus
Frost=ssj3 gotenks

Thats my opinion for now.

I see no reason to place base goku at buuhan or close to vegetto's level.

My opinion can change depending on what new stuff is released.

[Bullza]

Base Goku his own against Beerus, whereas Vegito apparently wasn't supposed to stand a chance and an angry SSJ2 Vegeta was knocked unconscious after being poked the head.

Both if which were stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

It's also backed up by him being stronger than Frieza who in turn was apparently stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, I see no need to particularly picky here, in his defense both "what Base Goku can do or can't do between ROF and the current arc" and "what Vegito was supposed to do against Beerus in ROF" are almost entirely arbitrary concepts with rather variegated interpretations among the community.

The Base Gohan > Super Saiyan Gohan bit sounds like overkill to me, though.
In ROF, Good Buu is supposed to be the best insurance policy the Z-senshi have available minus Goku, Vegeta (and Gotenks, too) vs. Freeza and his army. Good Buu can't realistically be more than 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Buu Saga.

[ZombieVito]

Well, I see no need to particularly picky here, in his defense both "what Base Goku can do or can't do between ROF and the current arc" and "what Vegito was supposed to do against Beerus in ROF" are almost entirely arbitrary concepts with rather variegated interpretations between the community.

Base Gohan > Super Saiyan Gohan sounds like overkill to me, though.
In ROF, Good Buu is supposed to be the best insurance policy the Z-senshi have available minus Goku, Vegeta (and Gotenks, too) vs. Freeza and his army. Good Buu can't realistically be more than 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Buu Saga.

He is? Over SSJ Gohan?

I just can't see how Boo > SSJ Gohan > Gohan > Piccolo can work. Seems impossible.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

Hmm.... let's compare and contrast:

Goku's transformations:
Base form (by the time Freeza revives, I think he's just as strong as a SSG)
Super Saiyan (includes all the grades; I think at the Hakaishin Tournament, this transformation could be close to Golden Freeza given he trained for 3 years)
Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 3
Super Saiyan God (which, I think is stronger than even Vegetto based on Goku saying fusion w/ Vegeta wouldn't give him a chance against Beerus, but SSG did)
Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (strongest Saiyan form ever, at least in the video games)

Vegeta's transformations:
Base Form (same as Goku)
Super Saiyan (includes the grades; just as strong as Goku's in the Hakaishin Tournament given he trained with Goku for 3 years)
Prince of Destruction (or "Majin Vegeta" which many like to call it, which is just as powerful as SS2 Goku)
Super Saiyan 2
"That's My Bulma!!" Super Saiyan 2 (which, is stronger than SS3 Goku and seemingly Gohan with his Old Kaioshin powerup)
Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (deadlocked with Goku in terms of power)

Gohan's transformations:
Base form
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 2
Ultimate/Potential Released/Old Kaioshin ability (stronger than Majin Buu before Buu absorbed Gotenks)
Super Saiyan + Potential Released (he apparently used this in the RoF movie and always could use it, according to some guidebook)

Freeza's transformations (after revival):
First Form (stronger than even Majin Buu, given the combined strength of Gohan, Piccolo, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Muten Roshi were no where close)
True Form (huge power increase. possibly close to SSG Goku)
Golden Freeza (yeah, too strong)

Beerus: Maybe a SSGSS Vegetto could equal him in power? Or come close like 90% or something? Either way, even a Universal Genki Dama couldn't touch Beerus (considering one, Beerus isn't really evil, two, he can nullify energy, and three, he's just too strong).

Whis: Stronger than Beerus obviously, and that's all I know.

Champa: Slightly less stronger than Beerus

Vados: Slightly stronger than Whis, given she's the elder sister that "trained" Whis apparently

Frost: I think he's very strong, but not Golden Freeza strong.

Cabba: I think even matched with SS Goku and Vegeta at the tournament

Hit: Very strong. Though not SSGSS strong, I don't think.

Not too sure about the Robot (Magetta) and Winnie the Pooh (Botamo).

[Bullza]

Well it'd mean Good Buu was about as strong as a SSJ2.5.

Super Saiyan Gohan could be as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku or Vegeta from the Buu arc.

And then Base Gohan would be twice as strong as Base Goku or Vegeta from the Buu arc. Which probably wouldn't be nearly high enough to be at least equal to Piccolo.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, I see no need to particularly picky here, in his defense both "what Base Goku can do or can't do between ROF and the current arc" and "what Vegito was supposed to do against Beerus in ROF" are almost entirely arbitrary concepts with rather variegated interpretations between the community.

Base Gohan > Super Saiyan Gohan sounds like overkill to me, though.
In ROF, Good Buu is supposed to be the best insurance policy the Z-senshi have available minus Goku, Vegeta (and Gotenks, too) vs. Freeza and his army. Good Buu can't realistically be more than 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan in the Buu Saga.

He is? Over SSJ Gohan?

I just can't see how Boo > SSJ Gohan > Gohan > Piccolo can work. Seems impossible.

It's been already posted some pages ago. It really is the most straightforward intepretation.
When everyone talks about how Gohan, Piccolo, Roshi, Tien and Krillin are supposed to be handling the Freeza army and that Goku and Vegeta aren't available, Krillin mentions that "they'll be fine" as long as Buu helps them. Then he realizes that Buu isn't there and everyone panics because they are the only ones left; Roshi then hopes that Gohan has resumed training to compensate the fact that Buu isn't with them, implying that Gohan has been slacking off for quite some time.

Gohan then says that he isn't (= he has been slacking off) but he thinks he can "still" go Super Saiyan. In the anime it is worded a little differently, but more or less, you'd have at most SS Gohan and Good Buu being about comparable in power. I doubt he would he feel the need to say that as a response to a "Buu isn't coming, what can we do" kinda problem. The answer here is that "despite Buu's absence there's still the fact that I can go Super Saiyan to turn the tide".

So there you have it.
In order of preference Goku = Vegeta > Good Buu + Gohan > Gohan if he had trained > Gohan as he is in ROF. While it's not, strictly, mathematical proof amounting to Buu > Gohan (they never said they would have switched out Gohan for Buu or vice versa, which would be the conclusive claim), the fact that they feel like they got everything covered as long as Goku OR Vegeta OR Buu is with them should reasonably put Good Buu nearer the first group than the group of, say, Gohan and Piccolo (who aren't game changers). Unless you want to believe that everyone had thought Gohan couldn't go Super Saiyan up until a minute before Gohan himself confirmed it.

Truth be told, I do think that TOEI is bypassing the fact that Good Buu is supposed to be a couple tiers lower than Fat/Kid Buu, power-wise. They still act like he is super strong and can become massively stronger by tapping into his rage.

Not that I can't see where the "ROF Gohan = weaker Ultimate Gohan -> SS Gohan = almost as strong as Ultimate Gohan" idea is coming from; but since I don't think his Super Saiyan form in Battle of Gods is supposed to be superior to his Chou form - quite the contrary actually, he never uses it against Beerus - I simply can't bring myself to think that the "weaker Ultimate-ish Gohan is the Base Gohan we see in ROF, which in turn is weaker than his Super saiyan" theory holds ground.
You'd have his Ultimate Form becoming vastly weaker than his Super Saiyan form, for starters, and it strikes to me as kind of arbitrary. Moreover, Gohan always used a kiai in the anime to unleash it and, physical appearance aside, it was pretty clear when he was going Ultimate (see "Wrath of the Dragon" and "Battle of Gods" for comparison).

All things considered, the simplest answer to me is that he can't "unlock" his power and bring it beyond the limits anymore. That, and he got weaker because he hasn't been training. That and, lacking any training, he can't even use his Super Saiyan like he wants to. Like a lifter who can't lift quite what he used to lift.
Put all these pieces together and Good Buu > SS Gohan seems like the most reasonable deduction.

[ZombieVito]

Well Boo is nearly SSJ3 tier IMO.

He did well against Pure Boo. He most likely regained the power he lost when Pure Evil Boo separated from him.

Gohan being over Piccolo in base really screws up the power chain. The movie did it much better with base Gohan being under him.

[LowRyder2005]

Well Boo is nearly SSJ3 tier IMO.

He did well against Pure Boo. He most likely regained the power he lost when Pure Evil Boo separated from him.

Gohan being over Piccolo in base really screws up the power chain. The movie did it much better with base Gohan being under him.

Well, you could quite simply look at it as Piccolo performing worse in the endurance test against Freeza's soldiers, maybe losing more stamina because he had fought against more of them.
Or Piccolo using weighted clothing in both the fight against the soldiers and Tagoma as a contributing factor in depleting his energy, and therefore to his quick defeat.
In any way, we don't know how the previous battle royal had affected the fighters.

Or you can do the opposite and cast doubt Beerus' claim to begin with.
I myself personally think ROF reinforces the Base Saiyans > Piccolo theory (in the anime, if anything), but we are talking about TOEI here. The guys do not exactly shine when power-scaling is involved.

[ZombieVito]

The whole base Saiyans > Piccolo stuff was already debunked in BoG. The only reason Gohan could be over him is because of his ultimate state (Or a remnant of it).