Zombie wrote:If Ginyu can make a near perfect estimate of Goku's power then I doubt the million years old god of destruction can't do the same.
Freeza was not at full power (No big muscles) in movie 12. The scene can still fit very well.
I don't understand why RoF Gohan is even in the equation with the base Saiyan thing, since:
A) The statement was made about Goku not him.
B) Gohan is not a normal Saiyan.
It really doesn't fit as well as you are making it sound.
Gohan destroys Freeza with
one punch. That alone is supposed to show that Gohan is
at the very least *1.25 at full power in Base if you value some kind of coherence in the power scaling.
And are you 100% sure that Beerus even
knows about Freeza can go up to 120,000,000? Freeza only uses that form when fighting, so unless he has seen Freeza fighting at 100% - which is a power-stressed form he uses only when the needs arises - he would really just refer to his Fourth Form, which is definitely his more
au naturel form.
But yeah, for the sake of your argument, let's say he is referring to "120,000,000". There's another problem: it's doubtful Freeza can really control ki without transformations (on the contrary: he uses those "reduced power forms" because he can't), so he must be at 90,000,000 or higher if he had trained (in GT). Gohan needs at least to be 90 * 1,25 = 112,5. If he's even using his full power against Freeza (another issue, he may or may not be).
You may say "alright, that's still weaker. But we are talking about Goku, needless to say, in the anime is still supposed to be leaps and bounds above Gohan in the same state. Not even mentioning that, again, in the anime, his Super Saiyan 3 is already stronger than the Chou Form if we take the comparisons made at face value.
You see? Even by lowballing everyone you nearly can't escape the Base Saiyans > Freeza in movie 12.
Nothing "fits" already in the TOEI universe. Until you realize that Super is supposed to follow their framework and not necessarily the impression you get by reading the manga you'll always end up with these supposed "discrepancies" which may not be discrepancies at all.
on goku's base vs freeza debate:
Goku agreed with beerus. I don't think anything else is needed.
It would be needed if you wanted absolute conclusiveness, which is something entirely lacking since we are missing Beerus words about fighting a Base Goku who is exerting himself. We know that Goku has perfect control over his ki, if he's not fighting he can bring ki down. Since he's just seen training "lightly" in movie, anime and manga, Goku could be at 20% or 30% for all we know.
There's the flaw in this entire argument. You are saying Goku
can't be suppressed and
can't agree he may not be stronger than Freeza in his suppressed state.
I may go on with saying the Vegeta argument carries more weight than Beerus' in the Buu Saga, because he has sufficient knowledge about both Piccolo and himself.
You know, there is a thin line between saying a theory is more foolproof than another or, say you are more inclined to believe a theory and just dismissing something
debatable as
undebatable. You want to take Beerus' word for confirmation that Goku < Freeza? Okidoki, fine, legitimate, but your mileage may vary.
I don't even
like the Base > Freeza theory, and I prefer to keep the guys weaker than Freeza. But this whole "thou shall accept Beerus' word on the matter as the Bible. Oh, btw, Vegeta is overestimating himself just because in the Buu Saga, Goku is for sure at 100% when he meets Beerus just because, and Base Gohan is casually weaker than Final Form Freeza even in the Movie Universe just because" is silly.
But let's go deeper, shall we? If you wanted to take Beerus' words at face-value he's implying Super Saiyan Goku may barely be able to beat Freeza ("Oh, I see, you may be able to beat Freeza in that state"), when Super Saiyan Goku can at the very least take on Perfect Cell at that point.
Goku (suppressed, he isn't even fighting; no aura at all) = 1,000,000
Beerus feels Goku's ki: "hey, how come you are far weaker than Freeza?".
Goku (base) = 500,000,000 -> can curbstomp Final Form Freeza better than Gohan, in TOEI's eyes.
Goku (SS) = 25,000,000,000
Beerus: "Oh, I guess you could beat Freeza like that, right?".
Which is just Beerus being uninterested: we know
for a fact that Goku is massively stronger than Freeza in SS form by the time of the Cell Saga, so he is just downplaying his strenght anyway. Or maybe Goku is suppressed in his Super Saiyan form anyway and he's barely above Freeza because he doesn't know Beerus strenght at the time the comment takes place.
).