Which Super Saiyan form did Gohan use against Dabra?

[Son_Gohan]

Why must we assume that he needed more than SSJ to beat Dabra? Goku did an amazing job at the Cell Games and Gohan was holding his own and even managed to knock Cell down who was going all out in speed while being highly unmotivated. If Gohan was motivated in fighting Cell I would say that he could have had the upper hand in the fight. If he was comparable to Cell before his Zenkai then it is understandable that SSJ Gohan could hold his own against Dabra fairly well.

Because we're given a statement by Dabura expressing SSJ1 Goku's power as being nothing to him and he proceeds to challenge 4 potentially SSJ1-tier opponents to attack him together to back it up. On top of that, Dabura was equated to Cell which they absolutely needed more than SSJ to beat.

[Bansho64]

I highly doubt that it would've taken THAT much more for one of them to beat him. Probably Grade 2 at most.

[Hitiro]

Because we're given a statement by Dabura expressing SSJ1 Goku's power as being nothing to him and he proceeds to challenge 4 potentially SSJ1-tier opponents to attack him together to back it up. On top of that, Dabura was equated to Cell which they absolutely needed more than SSJ to beat.

And this means what exactly? Aren't you making a big assumption that Goku was giving it his all when he went SSJ? He already demonstrated at least comparable ability to Yakon before he went SSJ. And I would not rely on Dabura's statement in the story as he thought that Pui Pui should be able to handle them. In all likelihood he couldn't sense Ki, not in the traditional sense seeing as he is a magic being, like Goku and the others couldn't sense him but worked out his capacity through his movements. And it seems like you just didn't read my last sentence. I said that Gohan was capable of handling Cell's maximum speed while being unmotivated. Given that, it is highly possible that SSJ Gohan could take him out.

[Son_Gohan]

And this means what exactly? Aren't you making a big assumption that Goku was giving it his all when he went SSJ? He already demonstrated at least comparable ability to Yakon before he went SSJ. And I would not rely on Dabura's statement in the story as he thought that Pui Pui should be able to handle them. In all likelihood he couldn't sense Ki, not in the traditional sense seeing as he is a magic being, like Goku and the others couldn't sense him but worked out his capacity through his movements. And it seems like you just didn't read my last sentence. I said that Gohan was capable of handling Cell's maximum speed while being unmotivated. Given that, it is highly possible that SSJ Gohan could take him out.

No, it would be an assumption to believe Goku wasn't at full power when there is no statement to express he wasn't, as has always been provided for the reader when there's intended to be suppression. And that suppression would even effect kiri readings. In the case of Cell, we are given indication that he is not at full power when fighting SSJ1 Gohan, so all that says is that Gohan could have a chance against a considerably suppressed Cell.

Dabura is basing his statement on a device that concretely measures Goku's power, not something he determined on his own.

[buutenks]

After kibito restored gohan's energy, he says to himself that he only could restore half of gohan's energy.

Considering gohan in the manga had the ssj2 hairstyle while fighting dabura but he lacked sparks, makes me to believe gohan went ssj2, but because his energy wasnt completely restored, gohan wasnt at full power ssj2. More like ssj1.5. Taking in account that gohan got weaker and wasnt at full power, then dabura who is as strong as FP perfect cell would give him allot of trouble.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Kibito actually never said that. He was actually wondering how much power Gohan had because the process was taking longer than he thought.

Gohan ate a senzu after fighting Dabra and still looked the same when transformed, so we know energy wasn't his issue.

Was Goku aware that Vegeta could become a Super Saiyan 2 before their battle? If not, then Super Saiyan Vegeta is stronger than Dabra. Unless you believe that Super Saiyan Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (which I have a hard time swallowing) that'd mean Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Dabra (or Dabra was holding back massively, which I find very unlikely).

Probably not. Goku looked surprised when Vegeta transformed, but I'm not sure if that was because of the power or because he was shocked he could go Super Saiyan 2. Goku and Vegeta seemed to be under their own impression that they could handle Dabra, but nothing outside of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan had been shown up to that point.

[Duo]

I do not believe it is necessary to make up the existence of partial transformations to explain all of this. It's really quite simple. "About as strong as Cell" is not a clear statement in the least. There's a lot of room for interpretation here, but not so much that you have to conclude things that go against the artwork. I always end up so baffled as to how this is even a discussion, hahaha.

[Son_Gohan]

I do not believe it is necessary to make up the existence of partial transformations to explain all of this. It's really quite simple. "About as strong as Cell" is not a clear statement in the least. There's a lot of room for interpretation here, but not so much that you have to conclude things that go against the artwork. I always end up so baffled as to how this is even a discussion, hahaha.

That's a pretty hypocritical thing to say, when you were trying to play the victim of condescension not too long earlier.

Goku's comparison to Cell was a general statement that does not warrant specification, as he was merely alluding that the fruits of their training in those 7 years would be enough to beat any form of Cell. The artwork does not constitute just the aura, and one could even use it to support Gohan not being SSJ1 against Dabura. You're right, there shouldn't even be a discussion when there exists a clear, official statement given in a guidebook of what form Gohan was using against Dabura. Although, I don't think you're in the right position to be saying that line.

[Duo]

I do not believe it is necessary to make up the existence of partial transformations to explain all of this. It's really quite simple. "About as strong as Cell" is not a clear statement in the least. There's a lot of room for interpretation here, but not so much that you have to conclude things that go against the artwork. I always end up so baffled as to how this is even a discussion, hahaha.

That's a pretty hypocritical thing to say, when you were trying to play the victim of condescension not too long earlier.

Goku's comparison to Cell was a general statement that does not warrant specification, as he was merely alluding that the fruits of their training in those 7 years would be enough to beat any form of Cell. The artwork does not constitute just the aura, and one could even use it to support Gohan not being SSJ1 against Dabura. You're right, there shouldn't even be a discussion when there exists a clear, official statement given in a guidebook of what form Gohan was using against Dabura. Although, I don't think you're in the right position to be saying that line.

You excel at unnecessary rudeness. I'm sorry that you feel your points are so weak that you have to resort to such a thing. Fortunately there are excellent solutions to these sorts of problems

[Bansho64]

Can we not turn this into an argument?

[Son_Gohan]

You excel at unnecessary rudeness. I'm sorry that you feel your points are so weak that you have to resort to such a thing. Fortunately there are excellent solutions to these sorts of problems

I don't feel my points are weak or that you've been treated unfairly. It seems you've made a special-case exemption for yourself when it comes to scoffing another person's position in the debate, but once your own position is inversely being targeted, you become overly defensive and start playing the victim. I can't do anything about your sensitivity, but I can offer an easy solution that could prevent you from getting offended again; simply keep the discussion on the evidence, and not divert attention towards the opinions people hold and how hilarious you find them because they differ from yours.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't think Dabra was saying Goku's power was trash. To me it seemed more like it would require more than raw power to the defeat the Demon King Dabra. In fact, he had some skills that could put him in another level.

[djcoopdawg]

All evidence points to SS1 against Dabura and also Buu a bit later on. Gohan couldn't get angry and go SS2. He was doing pretty good at SS1, kinda like how goku ss1 did a fair job against perfect cell in the cell games. If Dabura is like cell, then ss2 should be much stronger. Gohan was not dominating that fight at all.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Dabra said there's no one "more powerful" than himself, so I'd say the focus was on power.

[ROCKYIII]

This latest episode (vegeta vs maggetta) of super showed us how toriyama and the saiyans think. It's strategy in where they are playing a game with babidi so they don't want to show their trump card until the end and God forbid if majin buu is born. That's a funnel through which you could view gohan only going ssj1. The other side of the coin is, it would probably be smarter to use all your power since damage fuels the process of buu's birth.

Gohan and dabura were in the middle of the fight... If it got out of hand I'm sure he would have turned ssj2.

[apex_pretador]

Was Goku aware that Vegeta could become a Super Saiyan 2 before their battle? If not, then Super Saiyan Vegeta is stronger than Dabra. Unless you believe that Super Saiyan Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (which I have a hard time swallowing) that'd mean Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Dabra (or Dabra was holding back massively, which I find very unlikely).

vegeta told goku that he was stronger than gohan.

So, this point is solved.

I do not believe it is necessary to make up the existence of partial transformations to explain all of this. It's really quite simple. "About as strong as Cell" is not a clear statement in the least. There's a lot of room for interpretation here, but not so much that you have to conclude things that go against the artwork. I always end up so baffled as to how this is even a discussion, hahaha.

But then goku says he's stronger than what he thought.

This latest episode (vegeta vs maggetta) of super showed us how toriyama and the saiyans think. It's strategy in where they are playing a game with babidi so they don't want to show their trump card until the end and God forbid if majin buu is born. That's a funnel through which you could view gohan only going ssj1. The other side of the coin is, it would probably be smarter to use all your power since damage fuels the process of buu's birth.

Gohan and dabura were in the middle of the fight... If it got out of hand I'm sure he would have turned ssj2.

Or he could have used Super Saiyan 2 in the beginning of the fight, & dropped out due to stamina issues.

[rereboy]

It was clearly Super Saiyan, but my issue with it is that Kaioshin suggested to Kibito Gohan used more power after Kibito's death than he used in the tournament. So, unless Gohan's energy goes really higher when he fights, I don't see how Kaioshin's remark would make any sense.

Kaioshin just thought that he had used more power.

If Kaioshin's sensing abilities were extremely accurate, he would have realized, from the tournament alone, how much stronger Gohan was than him.

Instead, he doesn't seem to realize it and he even states some time later, when thinking about Gohan, that in fact it had been pretty difficult to restrain Gohan at the tournament.

Well, if he had properly sensed his power, he wouldn't find that surprising at all.

He only properly sensed it when he was fighting Buu.

[Ash57]

I don't see how that's the case. It was clearly stated several times that Gohan needed to get angry to tap into his SSJ2 strength, but simply couldn't do so as a result of years of not training.

Do you really think that a SSj Gohan who was far, far weaker than he was at C.G can fight against someone that is Cell-tier, even though C.G SSj Gohan was getting his ass whooped?

[Duo]

Do you really think that a SSj Gohan who was far, far weaker than he was at C.G can fight against someone that is Cell-tier, even though C.G SSj Gohan was getting his ass whooped?

I'm going to contest your points, but I mean no disrespect in the matter.

I don't think it's ever said that Gohan was FAR weaker than he was at the Cell Game, at least relative to whichever level of transformation he was using.

And again, I think this cannot be said enough, Goku doesn't nail down which Cell he is referring to. I always figured he was talking about how much power Cell used in his fight against him. Held back.

Furthermore, Gohan was getting his ass whooped against Cell because he was refusing to fight. He put Cell on the ground when he kicked him back.

There's a lot of room open for interpretation. Let's say Gohan was fighting at about the level Goku was against Cell, and that Dabra was fighting at a similar level of Cell against Goku, then this whole matter isn't very confusing, and it makes sense within the overall narrative and context of the story.

[Hugo Boss]

[Kaioshin] only properly sensed [Gohan's power] when he was fighting Buu.

Ok, issue solved. I agree with most of your post, but I don't think Kaioshin was accurate here. He thought SS Gohan could defeat Boo after training with the Z-Sword, while Goku didn't agree, no? Not that I'm joking with his power comparisons, but you also noted his methods of measuring power, and by extension Kibito's, are not trustworthy.

There's a lot of room open for interpretation. Let's say Gohan was fighting at about the level Goku was against Cell, and that Dabra was fighting at a similar level of Cell against Goku, then this whole matter isn't very confusing, and it makes sense within the overall narrative and context of the story.

I could agree with this. I mean, Goku could be comparing Dabra to the Cell he fought himself, the ones whose movements he was familiar with. It makes sense. In another hand, I find incredible Vegeta forgeting how badly Cell put him before being defeated by Gohan. Cell was probably as strong as SS2 Gohan. Certainly a powerful guy even for Super Saiyans. The way they talk is like, no matter which Super Saiyan goes against Dabra, he can win.