Do you wish the multiplier system was never introduced?

[LightBing]

That's why the first 50x is correct, because it was needed for Goku to defeat Freeza.

it wasn't.
A 25x works perfectly fine for me and still beats freeza comfortably.

Correct is the wrong word. I meant it's acceptable but not exactly a fact. We have this quote from Mr.Toriyama :"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point." (Thank you Kazenshuu for the translation)

The statement is very open to interpretation, since we have to take into account the Kaioken x20. It is very hard to pinpoint what the 10-fold is referring to. Anyway we're getting off-topic, my point was that multipliers are silly if you make them a universal rule. I preferred if they never existed in the first place.

[ABED]

The multiplier thing works for Kaio-ken, but for things like Super Saiyan it doesn't. It seems like the people writing the guide books made that assumption, but it can't just be a multiplier because Goku was pretty much out of gas when Freeza came back and killed Kuririn. From the beating he took to overexerting himself with the Kaio-ken x20, and then the Genki Dama, Goku had to have been on fumes at that point so to speak. Multiplying that power fifty times wouldn't have been enough. Super Saiyan also seemed to have a bit of a healing effect on him because he didn't just have a surge of energy, he didn't seem like he was in pain at all.

[apex_pretador]

That's why the first 50x is correct, because it was needed for Goku to defeat Freeza.

it wasn't.
A 25x works perfectly fine for me and still beats freeza comfortably.

Correct is the wrong word. I meant it's acceptable but not exactly a fact. We have this quote from Mr.Toriyama :"Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point." (Thank you Kazenshuu for the translation)

The statement is very open to interpretation, since we have to take into account the Kaioken x20. It is very hard to pinpoint what the 10-fold is referring to. Anyway we're getting off-topic, my point was that multipliers are silly if you make them a universal rule. I preferred if they never existed in the first place.

OK
but my reply was focused on this part ^^^

[Tyro]

With all due respect, if it was not true, and I knew it, I wouldn't have said it, thank you very much. And while Gohan's supposed uniqueness at getting stronger when he's angry is a sticking point for a lot of people (which I also don't agree with, I might add, since even *I* get stronger when I'm mad), I've seen just as many complain because, "There's no way Vegeta could ever be as strong as SSJ3 Goku, not even for a few seconds, because MUH MULTIPLIERS!" Like I said, I was not even aware the multipliers were even a thing until I saw people complaining about this scene. You even mention it in your post. So I'm not sure what the animosity and accusations of lying are when you're basically saying, "It has absolutely nothing to do with multipliers (except for this one multiplier right here)."

Sorry if I came across as agitated in that post. My intent was to be direct, not angry. Internet, y'know?

I actually agree that not being fine with something because of a multiplier one guidebook threw out is a silly reason indeed. But what I drew from your post, and what I've known you to have issues with in the past, is the idea that Vegeta could get a "rage boost" at all. And likening it to yourself and your human biology is an unfair comparison to say the least, because they're obviously (very obviously, c'mon now) completely different. Gohan gets huge boosts when he's mad, and almost exclusively Gohan alone. If any other character has ever gotten an anger boost, it's been small to nonexistent. Boo and Oob are the only other people to exhibit this trait. Name another example from the original 520.

Might other characters get boosts to their strength when they're pissed? Maybe. It goes against what Toriyama says about right-mindedness, but I digress. It still wouldn't be the same as what happens to Gohan.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

even *I* get stronger when I'm mad

Now I have to know. What's your rage boost multiplier?

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: Tyro

Well, I almost didn't reply to this, not for any personal reasons, but because I simply didn't feel debating about Gohan's rage boosts was an appropriate detour for this thread. But then I remembered that, as far as I'm concerned, the rage boosts and the multipliers kind of go hand in hand in this instance. As in, I don't think the rage boost would be considered as offensive if not for the multipliers.

So let me take it back to me for a second. (But as an aside, I just want to say that I don't see how comparing human and Saiyan biology as as wildly different as you seem to think. Or at the very least, there's no definitive proof. We are talking about a species that, with one exception, look like us; eat like us; expel waste like us; reproduce like us; are completely sexually compatible with us.) When I first saw Battle of Gods, I saw a scene I enjoyed, one that worked for Vegeta's character and was a satisfying moment. Then I saw that people were complaining about it because it trampled on Gohan's exclusive territory. Now, I've always known about Gohan's anger being tied to his power. Obviously. But watching that scene, the idea that Vegeta's actions were anything like Gohan's never occurred to me. In retrospect, I can see why people would think that. But for me, it just didn't seem to be the same thing. Well, first of all, Gohan was introduced as having power ONLY through uncontrollable rage, which he then had to tame to be useful. Totally different from Vegeta. And in future instances where Gohan's rage unlocks something, it usually ends up having a pretty big effect on the fight. Like even when it doesn't defeat third form Freeza, it still scares him enough to transform again.

Conversely, when Vegeta flips out, it doesn't really accomplish or change anything other than being a really cool moment for his character. Honestly, I see it much more akin to that bit of filler where Tenshinhan goes after Nappa after Chaozu dies, and all his allies are stunned, but it doesn't accomplish anything. And no one ever says that contradicts Gohan's sacred ground. So I didn't think it was treading on anything at all. EXCEPT... because of these multipliers fans argue Vegeta's boost would have to be ASTRONOMICAL to match up with Goku.

So, yeah, I do see the problems as tied together. If there wasn't a flow chart explaining exactly how much stronger a form HAS TO MATHEMATICALLY BE than another form, then Vegeta's freak out wouldn't HAVE to be considered ridiculously overpowered to match those ideas, and then, perhaps, it wouldn't look as though it's stealing Gohan's thunder.

But maybe that's just me. I think the numbers are stupid.

even *I* get stronger when I'm mad

Now I have to know. What's your rage boost multiplier?

You can't reduce me to simple numbers!

[TheMikado]

I think the real problem is making it pretty much HAVE to be a stupid multiplier in the first place due to the narrative.

When you have to get a 33X Zenki and then a 50X power boost in a few months time to match your opponents, you have completely screwed your narrative from here to eternity. I think fans need to face facts that that is just poor writing.


I mean giving Goku a 1650X power up is just insanity and the crux of the problem.

[gohann]

Yes, and this goes for all power level scales/rankings too. They neither add anything to the series nor are they interesting.

[Cipher]

Super Saiyan's "x50" per guidebooks makes sense only in that some distinction from Kaioken x20, which Goku uses in the same fight, seems reasonable.

But I basically ignore them, and think the series does too, so, yes.

[ABED]

Other than Kaio-ken, when was it ever explicitly stated in story that SSJ was a multiplier?

[z_cherub]

Power level maths are the single least interesting thing about the series to me(along with Broly), so I'd be fine without it. But it's not very invasive in the series, so I don't mind having it there for those who are into it.

So of all the great stories and characters thought up over the past 30 years, you're most entertained by 3rd grade math surrounding figures never expressed in the source material, & a lazy zero-depth character that the creator had has nothing to do with. Cool!

[Gaffer Tape]

Power level maths are the single least interesting thing about the series to me(along with Broly), so I'd be fine without it. But it's not very invasive in the series, so I don't mind having it there for those who are into it.

So of all the great stories and characters thought up over the past 30 years, you're most entertained by 3rd grade math surrounding figures never expressed in the source material, & a lazy zero-depth character that the creator had has nothing to do with. Cool!

He said it was the least interesting thing about the series.

[Kuririn Fan]

This is part of series doesn't exist for me and, as far as i know, only Kaio-ken had official multiplier.
"Well, you know what? Fuck power levels, fuck Super Saiyans and fuck you!!" - TFS Tenshinhan

[z_cherub]

Power level maths are the single least interesting thing about the series to me(along with Broly), so I'd be fine without it. But it's not very invasive in the series, so I don't mind having it there for those who are into it.

So of all the great stories and characters thought up over the past 30 years, you're most entertained by 3rd grade math surrounding figures never expressed in the source material, & a lazy zero-depth character that the creator had has nothing to do with. Cool!

He said it was the least interesting thing about the series.

...aaand I'm a blithering idiot. It sounded crazy (hence my reply), but it was obviously my reading comprehension...

[Kuririn Fan]

Your reply was fantastic nonetheless.

[Skar]

I think the real problem is making it pretty much HAVE to be a stupid multiplier in the first place due to the narrative.

When you have to get a 33X Zenki and then a 50X power boost in a few months time to match your opponents, you have completely screwed your narrative from here to eternity. I think fans need to face facts that that is just poor writing.


I mean giving Goku a 1650X power up is just insanity and the crux of the problem.

I agree. Power levels and multipliers made the power-ups look even more ridiculous and stupid. The whole PL system wasn't consistent at all and scale kept changing which made it even more unnecessary. If you compare the PL list to a list without the numbers then it doesn't appear to be as bad:

Saiyan saga Goku: 8,000
Goku when he first arrived on Namek: 90,000
Captain Ginyu: 120,000
1st form Freeza: 530,000
2nd form Freeza: +1,000,000
Post-mega Zenkai Goku: 3,000,000
Kaioken x10: 30,000,000
Kaioken x20: 60,000,000
50% Freeza: 60,000,000
100% Freeza: 120,000,000
SSJ Goku: 150,000,000
...
Some fanmade EoZ PL: 208992342342342540402332434345245

Saiyan saga Goku: Stronger than Nappa but weaker than Vegeta without Kaioken.
Goku when he first arrived on Namek: Much stronger than before.
Captain Ginyu: Stronger than base Goku but weaker than Goku with Kaioken.
1st form Freeza: Much stronger than Ginyu!
2nd form Freeza: Much stronger than his 1st form!
Post-mega Zenkai Goku: Stronger than Vegeta and only one able to challenge Freeza!
Trained Kaioken: Stronger than before.
Trained Kaioken Max: Equal or slightly weaker than 50% of Freeza's power.
50% Freeza: Equal or slightly stronger than Goku's max Kaioken.
100% Freeza: Unfathomable scary power!
SSJ Goku: Legendary transformation even more unfathomably powerful than Freeza!

Both get the same point across without a convulated list of numbers that don't really mean anything. Dragonball is action-oriented anime so I like to know how strong the characters are relative to each other but it can be expressed easily without any numbers. When #16 said that Piccolo was about as strong as #17, that was enough for me without needing to know that Piccolo's exact PL was 422 million or 2 billion or whatever.

I honestly don't believe Toriyama intended for SSJ or any of the subsequent forms to have a set defined multiplier. I think the idea was that each form was meant to be so mythical and great that it cannot be put into numbers. For some reason, that still makes it sound less extreme than if it was 50x or any exact number.

[z_cherub]

I think the real problem is making it pretty much HAVE to be a stupid multiplier in the first place due to the narrative.

When you have to get a 33X Zenki and then a 50X power boost in a few months time to match your opponents, you have completely screwed your narrative from here to eternity. I think fans need to face facts that that is just poor writing.


I mean giving Goku a 1650X power up is just insanity and the crux of the problem.

I agree. Power levels and multipliers made the power-ups look even more ridiculous and stupid. The whole PL system wasn't consistent at all and scale kept changing which made it even more unnecessary. If you compare the PL list to a list without the numbers then it doesn't appear to be as bad:

Saiyan saga Goku: 8,000
Goku when he first arrived on Namek: 90,000
Captain Ginyu: 120,000
1st form Freeza: 530,000
2nd form Freeza: +1,000,000
Post-mega Zenkai Goku: 3,000,000
Kaioken x10: 30,000,000
Kaioken x20: 60,000,000
50% Freeza: 60,000,000
100% Freeza: 120,000,000
SSJ Goku: 150,000,000
...
Some fanmade EoZ PL: 208992342342342540402332434345245

Saiyan saga Goku: Stronger than Nappa but weaker than Vegeta without Kaioken.
Goku when he first arrived on Namek: Much stronger than before.
Captain Ginyu: Stronger than base Goku but weaker than Goku with Kaioken.
1st form Freeza: Much stronger than Ginyu!
2nd form Freeza: Much stronger than his 1st form!
Post-mega Zenkai Goku: Stronger than Vegeta and only one able to challenge Freeza!
Trained Kaioken: Stronger than before.
Trained Kaioken Max: Equal or slightly weaker than 50% of Freeza's power.
50% Freeza: Equal or slightly stronger than Goku's max Kaioken.
100% Freeza: Unfathomable scary power!
SSJ Goku: Legendary transformation even more unfathomably powerful than Freeza!

Both get the same point across without a convulated list of numbers that don't really mean anything. Dragonball is action-oriented anime so I like to know how strong the characters are relative to each other but it can be expressed easily without any numbers. When #16 said that Piccolo was about as strong as #17, that was enough for me without needing to know that Piccolo's exact PL was 422 million or 2 billion or whatever.

I honestly don't believe Toriyama intended for SSJ or any of the subsequent forms to have a set defined multiplier. I think the idea was that each form was meant to be so mythical and great that it cannot be put into numbers. For some reason, that still makes it sound less extreme than if it was 50x or any exact number.

^These guys get it.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Anyone disputing Vegeta's flare-up in Battle of Gods needs to remember that weaker character deck stronger ones in the schnoz, let alone inconvenience them, on a pretty regularly basis in the source material. It was nice scene that put character over abstract strength values and left Beerus' advantage in tact by accomplishing absolutely nothing.

The Super Saiyan multipliers cannot be used as basis to judge fighting powers for a very simple reason: they are multipliers with no variables. They- or those who use them rigorously- try to enforce absolute gains on a myriad of different circumstances, and completely break down when you introduce opponents who are not meant to be stronger than their predecessors. I think they can be vaguely useful to distinguish broad power-tiers between the last three arcs, but beyond Goku v. Freeza (Quite literally, Future Trunks killing Freeza doesn't work if x50 is the end all be all) they don't have much concrete value.

As Mikado wrote, though, the implied scale of the power gains are the Z era's great fault, numbers or no.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

I'm fine with the SSJ1 being a 50x multiplayer, but I wish the other SSJs had stayed ambiguous. The way the multipliers exponentially increase as the series goes on (SSJ3 = 400x) only makes it all the more frustrating when forms beyond SSJ1 are ignored.

If SSJ3 was only a little stronger than SSJ2, then at least its drawbacks could look like...actual drawbacks.

[Skar]

I'm fine with the SSJ1 being a 50x multiplayer, but I wish the other SSJs had stayed ambiguous. The way the multipliers exponentially increase as the series goes on (SSJ3 = 400x) only makes it all the more frustrating when forms beyond SSJ1 are ignored.

If SSJ3 was only a little stronger than SSJ2, then at least its drawbacks could look like...actual drawbacks.

We could assume they're still ambiguous since they've never been given in the manga. The multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 were included in the SEG which was released 14 years after the manga ended. I honestly don't believe these came directly from Toriyama since it wouldn't make much sense for him to wait that long to reveal them. Of course Toriyama "approved" the guidebooks but its unlikely he had any number in mind in the first place so he probably would've accepted any estimate they gave. If he did intend for SSJ2 to be twice as strong as FPSSJ all those years ago then why not just reveal that in the manga? We've had a few occasions with characters revealing they've been using half their power so it should be easy for them to estimate when someone's power has doubled.

Not even the original 50x multiplier was every directly stated in the manga. We know for sure it had to be at least 41x base since it was at least twice as strong as 50% Freeza who was about equal to the Kaioken x20. I think Kaioken was partially to blame for that. If there wasn't a specific multiplier given then we wouldn't be able to guess the minimum for how strong SSJ was. In DBM, the author doesn't give any multiplier for Kaioken when its used because he wants to avoid any power level discussions. They mention that they're taking Kaioken to the next level but don't mention how much it is exactly. It's kinda like Luffy's Gear techniques. I don't think it was ever implied how much of a boost it is or the difference in power between the Gear levels. We just know that each one is stronger than the last.

By the way, I like your username . I imagine Bulma has as assistant who does that for her in her office.