Super 17 arc

[Zephyr]

It's no mystery that the Super 17 arc is almost universally hated. It's commonly cited as one of the reasons GT is so bad. Having recently given GT a rewatch, though, I have to say I don't see what all of the fuss is about. This arc was actually one of my favorite stretches of GT. It was just all around fun, as opposed to the absolute bore that much of the space adventures and the first four Evil Dragons embodied.

For starters, everyone rags on the arc for its strangeness, the villains coming back to life/getting their bodies back, robotic enemies coming back in the first place, etc. However, I believe that it is made pretty clear that this is the result of the Dragon Balls acting weird (arguably making it a part of the Evil Dragons arc, but that's a discussion for another thread). After the Baby arc wraps up, we see a shot of a cracked Dragon Ball. After the Evil Dragons are defeated, Shenlong makes note that the bad guys came back to life due to the minus energy (or something to that effect, I don't recall exactly what he said). All in all, I believe that everyone coming back to life the way they did is pretty damned justifiable and reasonably explained.

I see many people complain about it in the "power levels" department, with "base kid Goku hitting Super 17 across a planet". In addition to the fact that he was a Super Saiyan when doing this, Super 17 also is very clearly playing around and having fun. In addition to being comically over the top, I think seeing someone hit clear across the planet and then subsequently fire ki blasts back across the planet, adds to the sense of scale that the combat should be at by this point. This is something that I feel that a lot of post-Freeza material fails to execute in a satisfactory manner.

Then there are the character moments. Piccolo has an additional bit of closure for his character, after the closure he already received in the last arc, by being the defacto regulator of Hell itself. #17 and #18 had a moment together, and their bond was instrumental to Super 17's defeat. As Cipher is always keen to bring up, Goku and #18 actually have a moment together. Gero and Mu teaming up was just fucking cool. Seeing Kid Goku interacting with Freeza and Cell was good, just for how much more of a smug prick Goku seems to be when he's small (in particular he makes a fool out of Cell in what I found to be one of GT's funniest moments). We see Videl and Chichi preparing for battle, and even Bra's Saiyan instincts start kicking in. Though admittedly, they could have done a lot more with Vegeta and Nappa seeing each other again.

But that's all just me. What are your guys' thoughts? Anyone else think the arc gets far too much flak? Have recent rewatches of GT in general altered your long-held opinions on it?

[dbzfan7]

Careful you're not saying bad shit about GT. Don't worry, soon people will come in and fix it for you and ruin the entire thread. Meanwhile say bad things about Super and prepare to be attacked. You're not allowed to be negative about Super, but shit talk GT all you want. Just don't mention the word canon. People get nerd rages from that .

But seriously, to answer the question it's probably some of the nonsensical elements. Like how are Myuu and Gero even able to build anything in hell? Why do they have their bodies (Was dumb in the Z anime too). Why is 17 the real ultimate cyborg when that's Cell? That sounds like what a 17 fan would write. Why is it ripping off the fusion reborn scenario of bad guys escaping hell? Why is Goku such a dumbass who keeps giving 17 what he wants? Power levels LOL. Why is Oob still shafted when he at least was treated as some big deal in the baby arc for a bit? Just some of the complaints I can think of that came up.

[Cipher]

I enjoy the arc, but, while GT's inconsistencies are often grossly exaggerated, this arc contains a few. Maybe no more so than the anime-only additions in the prior two series, but:

-Android 19 being around is a real-deal plot hole/inconsistency.

-The fact the villains are instantly alive again upon coming to Earth is kind of jank. You could chalk it up to Hell working differently than Heavan, of the fact that they aren't properly spirited through, but ... I don't know. It's weird. While the Dragon Balls are (oddly quickly) cited as playing some role later, I believe the implication was just that they worked toward loosening the barrier between Earth and Hell? I'll have to check that.

-Whaaaaat's the deeeeaaal with Dr. Gero keeping his mechanical body in Hell while Freeza's patched up?

-On a motivation level, it's kind of weird that every single villain immediately goes on a rampage rather than getting the fuck out of dodge. Some it makes sense for. But you're telling me dudes like Zarbon or the Red Ribbon officers aren't going to slink off to live another day? Dragon Ball's simple, but it's usually not that black-and-white/reductive with its villains' actions.

Other than that? Whatever. It's a fun arc. Goku and #18 moments are indeed very nice. Even the things I've pointed out above don't distract for more than a second. I think a valid complaint is that, if you've managed to avoid the feeling before, this arc's slightly sloppy handling of elements like that may remind you you're watching a kids' show, and that it's occasionally subject to being fun and cool rather than internally consistent. Toriyama nearly always managed to avoid that. But if you can put that out of your mind, I don't think there's anything outrageously offensive about the arc, and within it are some nice character moments and one of GT's most visually compelling fights. Also, at six episodes it doesn't overstay its welcome.

[Zephyr]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, there are indeed questionable elements and inconsistencies throughout. For the most part though, they just seem too damned inconsequential, or explainable. I know that there are clear issues at play here, but I'm just less able to let them ruin the experience for me anymore, I guess is what I'm saying.

Why do they have their bodies

That, again, I believe is explained via the Dragon Balls effecting the cosmos in a strange way. I think that if one were to take the manga and GT together (and discount Z filler), I think that this is less of a problem, since it becomes a one time thing with a one time explanation, rather than a reoccurring thing requiring inconsistent explanations. And I think there's an arguable case one can make for going manga --> GT. The Z anime's story is derivative of the manga's story. The manga is the source material for the story. GT, on the other hand, is the sole source material for its story. It's not derivative. Thus, if one's aim is (as mine is) to string together the core plot points using the least derivative versions/the source material, then I believe that a case is made for dismissing Z filler in GT discussions.

Once they have their bodies, they can start building things. Which brings up...

how are Myuu and Gero even able to build anything in hell?

There are two ways I read this question: 1. Where do they find the materials? 2. Why did nobody notice or stop them?

1. They're both super scientists, I think it's believable enough that super scientists in the mystical world of Dragon Ball would be able to macguyver some shit. I mean, they already did. Gero making artificial humans that make Freeza look like a joke, after the comically absurd power creep that Freeza himself brought to the table, with purely Earth materials, I believe makes them combining their intellects and cobbling some OP shit together in Hell believable enough.

2. Hell doesn't seem to have a regulatory force. Bad guys don't normally have bodies, after all. After they did get bodies, they could plan and operate in secret, and overpower the relatively weak authorities when they're found out.

That said, them being able to build things in Hell could explain some of the really big oddities with the arc, such as:

Android 19 being around is a real-deal plot hole/inconsistency.

Whaaaaat's the deeeeaaal with Dr. Gero keeping his mechanical body in Hell while Freeza's patched up?

I have no fucking idea why Gero would re-roboticize himself and rebuild #19, but, well, I think it's technically possible that he could have done it? Again, questionable, but also justifiable and explainable to the extent that its questionability doesn't impede on the fun.

On a motivation level, it's kind of weird that every single villain immediately goes on a rampage rather than getting the fuck out of dodge. Some it makes sense for. But you're telling me dudes like Zarbon or the Red Ribbon officers aren't going to slink off to live another day?

That's a good point. I'm assuming there were some intimidation tactics involved on the part of the more powerful villains?

Why is Goku such a dumbass who keeps giving 17 what he wants?

That didn't strike me when I was watching it. What kinds of stupid stuff did Goku do during the fight?

Why is 17 the real ultimate cyborg when that's Cell? That sounds like what a 17 fan would write.

To be honest, #17 being the "for reals this time, we swear guys!" ultimate cyborg got a kick out of me. Just because it made the 17/Cell thing make a complete 360. Felt similar to the constant "no, this is the real ultimate Saiyan power!" shtick that the manga did.

Why is it ripping off the fusion reborn scenario of bad guys escaping hell?

Why is Oob still shafted when he at least was treated as some big deal in the baby arc for a bit?

Yeah, these are valid concerns, ones that GT suffers from a lot. Frequently recycled/reimagined plot points, and Goku's constant "no, you guys don't stand a chance, so don't even try to make the fights more fun for the viewers to watch!" were both constant sources of humor and aggravation for me during my rewatch.

[Hellspawn28]

What I like about the Super 17 saga is the team up with Goku and #18, and Nappa's cameo of Vegeta killing him again. I still think the idea of villains escaping out of Hell in GT was a bad idea They didn't do anything new with it since they are just all cameos and 90% of them get killed off screen. It feels lazy and unoriginal to repeat the same mistake that Fusion Reborn did. I also hated how we get a team up of the two most iconic villains against Goku and it was a total joke. Cell and Freeza got defeated in a one sided battle of child's play. I still hate how they have Piccolo stay in Hell which feels like a bad way to end his character to me. I think he would be happier living on the Grand Kai Planet since he can train with other fighters. We could have got the chance to see Piccolo and Pikkon finally together .

Also why use Piccolo as a plot device when Goku just teleported out of Hell himself like he done before by going SSj4 or by asking Kibitoshin to get him out of there> I also remember the Super 17 saga having some of the worst animation in GT. Not to mention having Dr. Myuu turning against Dr. Gero to be way too predictable. I would still like to have a original cyborg created by the two instead creating two #17's.

[Bansho64]

I honestly don't think it's as nearly bad as people make it out to be. I do think it has many inconsistencies but it does have some good moments. The love and devotion Eighteen shows Kuririn in this arc is very touching considering that she usually keeps her emotions hidden. Piccolo being in hell was pretty badass in my opinion. The son of the Demon King ruling Hell with an iron fist? Amazing! It's certainly not a horrible and it's pretty entertaining in my opinion

[Cipher]

I also remember the Super 17 saga having some of the worst animation in GT.

It actually only has one Last House episode (the one in which Goku and Piccoloare trying to open another portal out of Hell), so it fares pretty well. Unless you're counting the Tenkaichi Budokai episode that precedes it, which is another Last House joint and maybe one of the worst in the series.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Nah my opinion is still the same about this arc cheap fanservice with piss poor execution. The only positive in this arc was that it ended quickly.
I am not saying this because i am a GT hater infact i like GT the Bebi and Evil Dragons are good but this arc is just awful.

[jamiljamtheman]

I still enjoy it, but its not the high point of GT for me. My favorite part of GT is actually the early space adventures and then the baby arc (I kind of consider them one arc since they tie together so well).

There's definitely stuff to like about the Super 17 saga though. As others said, 18's moments are great. I also liked seeing Gohan fight Rilldo (one of my fave from the previous arc) and especially liked that Majuub one-shots him. I also thoroughly enjoy watching Frieza and Cell get owned. And Piccolo's method of getting to hell. And its nice to see Dr. Myu be a consistent villain through so much of the show instead of villains completely switching all the time.

Ok so I guess I do enjoy a lot in this arc, I just find the main villain himself (Super 17) silly and uninteresting, Baby doesn't reappear for whatever reason, and like I get that Krillins death was to motivate 18 and have a great character moment for her but darn it that's the only thing Krillin gets to do in GT.

[Kamiccolo9]

I mean, Gero built 20 androids in a cave with a bunch of scrap, so I don't see him making another one in Hell to be that egregious of an issue.

[successoroffate]

I think the concept of Hell opening up and the bad guys coming back to life was OK but It wasn't executed properly. Enemies who came back like Cooler only brought more loop holes (putting aside how awesome it was to see them again). Resurrection F doesn't help Freeza's GT appearance. I personally consider the Super 17 Saga as the filler of GT. It's fun, but if they ever redo GT, then I would completely dismiss it.

[Danfun64]

To me it's the whole "17 was supposed to be the ultimate" thing, which in no way, shape, or form was discussed or even implied in DBZ. It comes off as bad fanfiction. Also inconsistencies involving the androids giving off energy, the non human android villians returning, Cell NOT trying to absorb Freeza, etc... The villians escaping from Hell ideas was better done in Fusion Reborn, while the "make 17 the ultimate" idea was better done not at all. Definitely the worst part of GT, as though the series had several good ideas with perhaps not the best executions, Super 17 was *never* a good idea.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

To me it's the whole "17 was supposed to be the ultimate" thing, which in no way, shape, or form was discussed or even implied in DBZ. It comes off as bad fanfiction. Also inconsistencies involving the androids giving off energy, the non human android villians returning, Cell NOT trying to absorb Freeza, etc... The villians escaping from Hell ideas was better done in Fusion Reborn, while the "make 17 the ultimate" idea was better done not at all. Definitely the worst part of GT, as though the series had several good ideas with perhaps not the best executions, Super 17 was *never* a good idea.

Same. Cell was Gero's ultimate creation not 17.

[sintzu]

#17 & #18 were a bit underused in their Z arc so I'm happy that this arc gave them the screen time they deserved.

However, I think there's a lot more they could've done with the villains who escaped hell and the Z fighters while Goku took on Super #17.

I see many people complain about it in the "power levels" department, with "base kid Goku hitting Super 17 across a planet". In addition to the fact that he was a Super Saiyan when doing this.

But that's all just me. What are your guys' thoughts? Anyone else think the arc gets far too much flak ?

When a Saiyan reaches Ssj4, it brings out all of his dormant power so that would explain why Goku was able to put up a fight against him compared to the others.

I think GT as a whole gets too much flak.

[emi_b7]

It's a bad premise (Gero and Myuu build another android 17 who fuses with the first no.17, who was Gero's ultimate creation all along, to create a super OP warrior) which has some problems with the execution too (what the guys above me pointed out) but there's still enough cool stuff to make it enjoyable. I feel the same way about F arc in Super. In fact, I think Super 17's arc would be better as a movie than a full arc.
Among Dragon Ball arcs, I would rank it (and F) only over Garlick Jr's arc (duh!) and the Black Star Dragon Balls arc (unless you count BSDB as part of Baby's arc) which are the only 2 portions of DB anime I don't really enjoy.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

The only flaw to it was just the premise before Super 17 appears, Myu and Gero teaming up wasn't a bad Idea, it actually makes sense if you consider their intersecting goals. Only flaw was their method. Its inexpiable even with headcanon. Making a duplicate 17 of the same SSJ1 tier and fusing it with the other one to make a SS4 level villain is just Resurrection F level ridiculous. The way that 17 was also treated like a robot and less like a cyborg was also a problem. If they didn't do that, and just gave the normal 17 some sort of independent boost to become Super 17, that would have been fine. But outside that premise they messed up, everything else about the arc was good. 17 & 18 got closure and he actually confronted Goku which he didn't technically meet him prior, they referenced events from Z relevant to the tension, It was also consistent with 17's ego of being the "strongest artificial human" when he fought Piccolo,Goku also used a realistic tactical strategy to beat him, and in reference to Dragonball. It's script itself had more positives than negatives.

[dbzfan7]

That, again, I believe is explained via the Dragon Balls effecting the cosmos in a strange way. I think that if one were to take the manga and GT together (and discount Z filler), I think that this is less of a problem, since it becomes a one time thing with a one time explanation, rather than a reoccurring thing requiring inconsistent explanations. And I think there's an arguable case one can make for going manga --> GT. The Z anime's story is derivative of the manga's story. The manga is the source material for the story. GT, on the other hand, is the sole source material for its story. It's not derivative. Thus, if one's aim is (as mine is) to string together the core plot points using the least derivative versions/the source material, then I believe that a case is made for dismissing Z filler in GT discussions.

Once they have their bodies, they can start building things. Which brings up...

Did the Dragon Balls do that? I don't remember if it's said they distorted the universe. Though it'd make more sense for me with the Black Star Balls that go across the universe, than the one's that are bound to earth to cause that. The distortion was caused by the earth 17 and actual 17 I think right? Though my issue is why they have bodies at all? My answer is because they count Z filler where bad guys have bodies....for no good reason. It was dumb in Z filler and still dumb here. Though considering Freeza keeps his body for no good reason in F, may as well say a similar thing could happen to other villains too I guess.

There are two ways I read this question: 1. Where do they find the materials? 2. Why did nobody notice or stop them?

1. They're both super scientists, I think it's believable enough that super scientists in the mystical world of Dragon Ball would be able to macguyver some shit. I mean, they already did. Gero making artificial humans that make Freeza look like a joke, after the comically absurd power creep that Freeza himself brought to the table, with purely Earth materials, I believe makes them combining their intellects and cobbling some OP shit together in Hell believable enough.

2. Hell doesn't seem to have a regulatory force. Bad guys don't normally have bodies, after all. After they did get bodies, they could plan and operate in secret, and overpower the relatively weak authorities when they're found out.

That said, them being able to build things in Hell could explain some of the really big oddities with the arc

I think the anime operates on anime logic as in Z, we saw the bad guys have bodies in the anime. I think it's doing the same thing here. With materials we wonder how and where they can even get them? With earth they have several resources. Question sure how they can stack up to Freeza, but they still have earth's full resources. It's not like they made the Cyborgs from rock. In hell, where would they get these resources? I don't think there's electrical equipment or ore anywhere.

That didn't strike me when I was watching it. What kinds of stupid stuff did Goku do during the fight?

He discovered 17's trick early on, but then kept shooting ki at him anyways. I guess we could say he thought he could Yakon, 17, but he didn't seem to show that was his plan. It's a viewers possible interpretation.

To be honest, #17 being the "for reals this time, we swear guys!" ultimate cyborg got a kick out of me. Just because it made the 17/Cell thing make a complete 360. Felt similar to the constant "no, this is the real ultimate Saiyan power!" shtick that the manga did.

It's something I don't like at all. I see it being funny if I looked at the entire arc as a parody. But that's it. I do like Super 17's look, but even I think it's just silly to have him out of the blue be considered the real Ultimate Cyborg. I'm not sure if they mean because a machine mutant combining with him would grant more power, but it seemed like he was always the supreme uber best even before that possibility for some reason.

Yeah, these are valid concerns, ones that GT suffers from a lot. Frequently recycled/reimagined plot points, and Goku's constant "no, you guys don't stand a chance, so don't even try to make the fights more fun for the viewers to watch!" were both constant sources of humor and aggravation for me during my rewatch.

Definitely one of the weakest parts of GT. Gotta give you props and mad respect for at least trying and thinking of ways to explain things. It's really refreshing when the average responce is just shit on GT errors, and then scramble around to cover up DB/Z/Super/EOZ errors. I've heard the ludicrous theories people take as their head canon, but for GT it's just everything is dumb, everything is wrong, no one is allowed to try to come up with plot closing theories here because "GRR ME HATES GT"

[jjgp1112]

Just to play devil's advocate to the Ultimate Android thing, 17 did repeatedly insists that he was THE ultimate Android and the strongest fighter in history around the time Cell popped up, although that was clearly just his ego talking rather than any actual proven fact considering 16 was stronger than him anyway...so I'm just splitting hairs and tossing out useless facts

[Speedster]

This arc had some very good concepts. The execution was flawed but still despite the issues it was an entertaining arc. Certainly much more interesting than the obnoxious super boring Garlic Junior arc in Z. Also many of the things that people consider plotholes can actually be explained. Yeah, OK, villains maintaining their bodies is an inconsistency but I am not going to blame GT for that as it was something that comes from Z’s filler. But that flaw aside (which is actually not a flaw of this particular arc) most of the rest are fine.

- Why is Super Android 17 so powerful?
a) #17 was fused with an improved “machine mutant” #17. This technology proved capable to produce powerful warriors beforehand. Rildo was Buu level to begin with and with the sigma force he was challenging SSJ Goku (that is SSJ on top of SSJ3 Buu arc by the way).
b) With the portal opened, the original #17 said that the power of hell was pouring into him.
c) Dr Myuu references #17's dormant power saying it had previously remained idle due to him being imperfect (after Gero says the story).

-Why was the original #17 needed?
They said it was to open the portal by resonating with Hell’s #17. Plus he got more powerful by receiving energy from hell. Also let me reverse the question. Why did Cell need to absorb #17 and #18? Why didn't he try to absorb Piccolo or Vegeta or Trunks if it was a matter of absorbing the most powerful? Apparently it was designed to work that way biologically. After all the original #17 was bringing to the table his infinite power source. With some tweaking due to his machine mutant fusion his output energy per unit time and hence power could be increased accordingly.

-Did Gero just say that #17 was meant to be his ultimate Android? Wasn’t meant to be Cell?
Probably Gero’s original vision was to improve #17 to perfection but since he was unbale to erase #17's human feelings completely and #17 was hating him he pursued the Cell project instead. Gero in GT said: “If there were another way, I wouldn’t think of activating these two. But because I was unable to completely erase the feelings he had from when he was human, he hated me after I had rebuilt him. He was an imperfect, unsuccessful creation.” Prior to that he said “Orignally No.17 was supposed to have had tremendous power, greater than even Cell’s….” And Myuu implied that due to being imperfect, #17's dormant power remained idle.

-Reusing #17? Lame! Fanfcition!
Well your god almighty Toriyama did an even worse thing! He brought freaking Freeza back and gave him an asspulled powerup too. And immediately afterwards he brought Frost...Freeza's doppelgänger! At least #17 was an underused villain and Super #17 had a cool design. Also unlike Freeza, #17 had a new abilty he didn't have before. The ability to absorb energy blasts. Freeza still had the same old attacks - he could just kick/punch harder.

-Why was SSJ Goku so much stronger than even Majuub? An arc earlier Majuub was at least SSJ3 tier.
Probably after becoming SSJ4, Goku's base received a power boost. Similar to the SSJ God boost in the movie BoGs ... remember? Especially after watching Dragonball Super… I don't find it unreasonable that his base increased by 10x because of that.

How were Dr Gero and Dr Myuu able to create an android in hell?
How was Bulma in the RRA arc able to create a rocket spy camera out of junk she found in Roshi’s house? We are talking about Super scientists here one of them of alien origin.

Cooler is there! Cooler is non-canon and he never appeared in the anime continuity!
For all we know, all that Cooler stuff might have happened in a slightly different way than it played out in the movie in order to fit to the actual timeline. Cooler’s revenge story doesn't have too many continuity issues anyway. So if you were to believe that what we saw in the film was in a different timeline (a what if timeline) and that the events in the actual main timeline played out at a slightly different time I don't see why not. Additionally we might also say that we don't really know if Hell branches out with different timelines. For all we know all the timelines of Universe 7 might be having a common hell. Ah, and Cooler is Toriyama’s design. That doesn't make him “canon” but still this is how the orginal creator visualised the brother of Freeza.

As you can see if you want to talk the issues around you can. You see fans doing this kind of thing all the time when it comes to the issues of "Toriyama's written Dragonball". But they just don't want to do it with GT because for their own reasons they dislike it. One these reasons is because their favourite character didn't have enough screentime and it was pretty much all about Goku. That is their main issue with GT and that's why they keep bashing it.

[Cipher]

Better reason for Coola showing up: It's a two-second Easter egg in a static new-broadcast image holy shit why does this even come up?