The Cell Game

[SDHero]

Once again, the real problem is how Toriyama pretty well forgot about this idea by the time he got into the Cell Arc of the story.

I think it makes the most sense to suggest that once you're a Super Saiyan, you're on a whole 'nother playing field, and the "near-death" powerup might exist, but has a negligible effect on your power once you can increase it so much more exponentially by transforming. This may just be a by-product of the fact that once Goku goes SSJ, Toriyama never mentions the idea again, but hey, if it works, go with it!

But Toriyama-sensei did mention it; Cell got a big boost. But your explanation makes sense. Cell only got a noticable powerup because his near-death experience was so extreme.

DOES Toriyama mention it? Or is that onna them special "additions" to the anime? (I'm asking, 'cuz I honestly don't remember, and I don't have the volume here with me)

[raz1337]

Here are 2 screenshots of Trunks and Vegeta as the Cell Jrs are heading towards the Z fighters. Not good quality, but shows their forms.

Vegeta - http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4871 ... ljrfl7.jpg

Trunks - http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8397 ... ljrwa4.jpg

Looks like the first form of USSJ to me.

[Thanos6]

Also, during the Buu arc, Toriyama seems to go out of his way to mention that "Mystic" Gohan, after being healed by Dende, does NOT receive a power-up, because he's hit his absolute max. To my knowledge, that's the last mention of the Saiyan near-death powerup.

[Kaboom]

Once again, the real problem is how Toriyama pretty well forgot about this idea by the time he got into the Cell Arc of the story.

I think it makes the most sense to suggest that once you're a Super Saiyan, you're on a whole 'nother playing field, and the "near-death" powerup might exist, but has a negligible effect on your power once you can increase it so much more exponentially by transforming. This may just be a by-product of the fact that once Goku goes SSJ, Toriyama never mentions the idea again, but hey, if it works, go with it!

But Toriyama-sensei did mention it; Cell got a big boost. But your explanation makes sense. Cell only got a noticable powerup because his near-death experience was so extreme.

DOES Toriyama mention it? Or is that onna them special "additions" to the anime? (I'm asking, 'cuz I honestly don't remember, and I don't have the volume here with me)

Well, by "mention it," I meant, "no, he didn't forget, because he made it part of the story." Cell did get a big boost after regenerating, and said so himself.

Here are 2 screenshots of Trunks and Vegeta as the Cell Jrs are heading towards the Z fighters. Not good quality, but shows their forms.

Vegeta - http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4871 ... ljrfl7.jpg

Trunks - http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8397 ... ljrwa4.jpg

Looks like the first form of USSJ to me.

Nah, it's not bulky enough. That's just regular Super Saiyan.

[Lavender Saiyan]

Also, Cell states that Vegeta and Trunks were holding their own against the Cell Jrs. Goku did not get a senzu after his fight with Cell, so he was too drained. Piccolo is down with the humans by this point.

Piccolo isn't doing as terrible as the Humans. There's a chapter art where the Humans are down & Piccolo is still standing but clearly worn down.

[raz1337]

I'll start at the beginning with the purpose of Goku and Gohan's time in the room of space and time. Yes, Goku had entered with the intent to surpass SSJ. He first comes to where Trunks leaves off, what is usually refered to as USSJ. He then comes to the same point Vegeta managed to come to. (Realizing that USSJ's bulk was more of a hinderance than an advantage.)

But Goku goes beyond Vegeta's conclusions. He decides that the best course of action now is to improve on the basic Super Saiya-jin form. If memory serves, he says he wanted to reach a point where he could be rid of the 'anxious' feeling in the form, so he could fight more smoothly. When he comes out of the room, Vegeta is in awe, remarking to himself how calm Goku seems in a form that, at one point, as all about rage and loss of control.

Now, what did Goku expect from Gohan... is summed up in one of my favorite moments. When Goku confronts Gohan after the match, Gohan was genuinely confused. He assumed that neither Goku or Cell had been fighting at full strength because it just didn't seem that great to him. You can assume that while Goku and Gohan were training in the room, Goku might have actually been pushed to giving Gohan 100%. Gohan would never realize this though, never thinking he could match his dad and Goku doesn't point this out to him.
As we come to the match, Goku knows Gohan had come up to his level almost effortlessly in a most naive way and knows that he still has that special ability of his tap into massive amounts of power when he's under a lot of stress. Goku isn't shocked that Gohan's super saiya-jin powers are so great... he already figured this in their training. I do believe he was still shocked at the sheer increase after SSJ2, as he looks equally shocked with everyone else after his transformation.

The Cell Juniors... were strong enough to give everyone competition. Even Goku seemed to be taking a bit of a beating... so they're probably at the same level as Cell is. Gohan still dispatches each with no effort afterwards, and only leaves Cell himself alive out of bloodlust.
I do believe their time in the room made a difference... but that difference is dwarfed compared to Cell and Gohan.
And no, Goku and Vegeta already knew that USSJ wasn't a good idea, and Trunks had learned that lesson the hard way by now. The form had it's moment and failed.
As for why Goku fought Cell first... he might've wanted to show Gohan his moves, but more than that Goku had to show Gohan his power and literally show Gohan that he had been seeing was his father's best. Had Gohan gone first, he probably would've been nervous and assumed he couldn't match up to Cell or do a good a job as his dad. But because Goku demonstrated that he was giving 100% and Gohan finally accepted that he could be as strong, he entered the battle with confidence in himself.

Hope some of that helped...

Wow...amazing description of that part. That's exactly how I had seen it, I just couldn't put it into words like that. I never thought deeper into Goku talking to Gohan before his fight with Cell and Gohan's comparison of Goku's power to his own. Gohan thought he couldn't be as strong as his father, so when he saw Goku fighting at 100% at a level lower than his own, he automatically assumed that Goku just wasn't fighting at his maximum because it was impossible that he could be stronger than Goku.

Gohan is definitely stronger than Goku when he starts his fight with Cell. And yeah, Goku knew Gohan would reach SSJ2, just he didn't expect the jump in power from SSJ to SSJ2 to be that huge. It's also possible that the jump in power for Gohan could've been bigger than it was for Goku and Vegeta when they reached SSJ2 in the time after the Cell Games.

Also, about the USSJ form being used in the Cell Games, I guess I was wrong, I just took an SS of Super Vegeta from the fight with Imperfect Cell.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7899 ... etadc3.jpg

That's definitely bulkier than my last screenshot. I don't understand why they didn't use the first form of USSJ though. I was always under the impression that the first form didn't have the decrease in speed, while the second form had the speed hinderance, which Trunks experienced. Although, if you think about it, maybe Vegeta and Trunks didn't have the time to transform into USSJ when the Cell Jrs attacked, and only had the time to transform to SSJ.

[Kaboom]

I don't understand why they didn't use the first form of USSJ though. I was always under the impression that the first form didn't have the decrease in speed, while the second form had the speed hinderance, which Trunks experienced. Although, if you think about it, maybe Vegeta and Trunks didn't have the time to transform into USSJ when the Cell Jrs attacked, and only had the time to transform to SSJ.

Well, here's a little something I've always believed; I'm sure a lot of other people subscribe to the theory, too.

The USSj stages are, in a sense, failed attempts at tapping into the power of SSj2. They try to access power that the Saiyan's body just plain isn't ready or able to handle yet. The "Full-power" SSj that Goku and Gohan acheived while in the RoSaT, and the benefits that go with it, are actually necessary to reach SSj2. You can't just jump up to the next stage until you've "finished" with the one before it. Am I making sense?

Also, since the means of accessing the SSj2 power are being shifted around and changed, then USSj would essentially dissapear as FP SSj is being acheived and perfected. So Goku and/or Gohan arguably couldn't use USSj at that point, even if they wanted to.

If Vegeta and Trunks realized what was going on with this after seeing Goku and Gohan so relaxed and easy with SSj, and then feeling how much Goku had improved when he showed off his power to Korin, then I don't see why Vegeta and Trunks wouldn't have tried to go for the same thing (FP SSj) during their second sessions in the room before the Cell Game.

So I believe that Vegeta and Trunks had gotten a good chunk of the way through their FP SSj training by the time of the Cell Game. It would explain why Vegeta felt confident (again) that he would be able to beat Cell. Now obviously, neither Vegeta or Trunks had gotten as far into perfecting FP SSj as Goku and Gohan had, and neither were strong enough to take on Cell. But it would explain why they weren't using USSj against the Cell Jrs. They either no longer had access to it, or had reached a point in the FP SSj training where using regular SSj was better.

After the Cell Game, it wouldn't take long for Vegeta to finish perfecting FP SSj, and then reach SSj2 through training. Goku did the same in the afterlife, minus the first part, and as a result, the two were both extremely close in power (at SSj2, anyway) by the Buu arc.

As for Trunks, I believe he would continue training in his timeline and eventually reach SSj2. Even though he's not as driven and enthusiastic a fighter as Goku or Vegeta, he's still smart and responsible. He would know that he's the only one left to defend the Earth, and would need to be strong enough to handle anything that might threaten it in the future. It'd make sense if they use something like this idea as the basis for Shin Budokai 2's story.


...Whoa. My little point turned into a longwinded rant...

[raz1337]

Nah, just informative. That all makes sense though. Shame a lot of this is just speculation.

[Mr.Piccolo]

That's a good take on it, Kaboom. The way that I've always see it is Vegeta and Trunks spent their time in the room training individually but Vegeta would probably train the same way he did during the three years before the androids. Maybe some meditation here and there? I don't know. I mean for the record, one year is a long time...

But since this thread is still here, I might as well as the inevitable question: What's the deal with Cell and his aura throughout his stage of "perfection"? In the manga there are times that he has the aura of SSj, USSj, and of course, SSj2. To which I respond with: WTF?!:?
-Rick

[mAcChaos]

He's a saiyan too, in a way.