ssj x10 multiplier?

[Darkprince410]

1. His only miscalculations were before he met their current selves. He believed #19 was still able to beat Goku because of #19's energy absorption. He was right even if Goku's sickness never detoriated Goku below his starting power level.

Even after Goku had transformed, but before #19 had absorbed any of his energy, he calculated that Goku would still be no match for him. However, as we saw, #19 was getting beaten around left and right, and it was only the combination of the heart virus kicking in heavily and the absorbed Kamehameha that turned the tides.

The moment after Goku transformed:

No.20: “However, this isn’t anything great enough to give us reason to fear. It’s still within a level which even No.19 is more than capable of defeating, and naturally that goes for myself as well…”

[xmysticgohanx]

1. His only miscalculations were before he met their current selves. He believed #19 was still able to beat Goku because of #19's energy absorption. He was right even if Goku's sickness never detoriated Goku below his starting power level.

Even after Goku had transformed, but before #19 had absorbed any of his energy, he calculated that Goku would still be no match for him. However, as we saw, #19 was getting beaten around left and right, and it was only the combination of the heart virus kicking in heavily and the absorbed Kamehameha that turned the tides.

The moment after Goku transformed:

No.20: “However, this isn’t anything great enough to give us reason to fear. It’s still within a level which even No.19 is more than capable of defeating, and naturally that goes for myself as well…”

Like I said, even if the heart virus didn't kick in Goku would have lost. BTW Gero doesn't say that Goku is no match for #19. You even provided the quote for me.

I have something like this:

Real SSJ Goku: 130 or so
SSJ Goku (initial sickness): 100
#19: 75
#19 after Kamehameha: 90
Hypothetical SSJ Goku after kamehameha: 90
Canon SSJ Goku after kamehameha and worsening heart virus: something a lot less than 90

And #19 can still absorb more energy

[Darkprince410]

Like I said, even if the heart virus didn't kick in Goku would have lost. BTW Gero doesn't say that Goku is no match for #19. You even provided the quote for me.

I have something like this:

Real SSJ Goku: 130 or so
SSJ Goku (initial sickness): 100
#19: 75
#19 after Kamehameha: 90
Hypothetical SSJ Goku after kamehameha: 90
Canon SSJ Goku after kamehameha and worsening heart virus: something a lot less than 90

And #19 can still absorb more energy

Gero's line pretty clearly states that, while Goku's power-up was impressive, it wasn't enough to be beyond what #19 could have handled on his own, yet we clearly see that wasn't the case. Even in a terribly weakened condition compared to his normal maximum, Goku was throttling #19, and it was only due to the combination of Goku losing ki from the Kamehameha, losing strength from the virus, and #19 growing stronger from Goku's ki that things switched. There's no way Gero's statement about #19's base strength vs. Ssj Goku at the moment he transformed could be accurate.

[xmysticgohanx]

Like I said, even if the heart virus didn't kick in Goku would have lost. BTW Gero doesn't say that Goku is no match for #19. You even provided the quote for me.

I have something like this:

Real SSJ Goku: 130 or so
SSJ Goku (initial sickness): 100
#19: 75
#19 after Kamehameha: 90
Hypothetical SSJ Goku after kamehameha: 90
Canon SSJ Goku after kamehameha and worsening heart virus: something a lot less than 90

And #19 can still absorb more energy

Gero's line pretty clearly states that, while Goku's power-up was impressive, it wasn't enough to be beyond what #19 could have handled on his own, yet we clearly see that wasn't the case. Even in a terribly weakened condition compared to his normal maximum, Goku was throttling #19, and it was only due to the combination of Goku losing ki from the Kamehameha, losing strength from the virus, and #19 growing stronger from Goku's ki that things switched. There's no way Gero's statement about #19's base strength vs. Ssj Goku at the moment he transformed could be accurate.

1. Gero's line does not state that.

2. Was Goku throttling #19? Yes. Did it affect #19's performance? No because that is the nature of the androids. If you can't leave actual injuries, like ripping arms off, it does not affect them at all.

3. #19 did not need Goku's heart virus to worsen to win. He just needed the other 2 things you mentioned (losing strength from the Kamehameha and #19 absorption swag)

4. Gero was factoring in #19's absorption, he isn't dumb

[Analytic]

Whatever Gero's statement was supposed to mean, he was clearly wrong, otherwise he'd have no reason to be surprised like he is here:



(This was right after Goku's initial blow that sent #19 flying.)

[TheMikado]

Are we still discussing the 10x multiplier or has that been disproven?

[xmysticgohanx]

Whatever Gero's statement was supposed to mean, he was clearly wrong, otherwise he'd have no reason to be surprised like he is here:



(This was right after Goku's initial blow that sent #19 flying.)

After rereading the fight, I concede.

Are we still discussing the 10x multiplier or has that been disproven?

No. What has been disproven is Gero + Suppressed Piccolo + Tenshinhan + Kulilin + Gohan > SSJ Vegeta. Both 10x and 50x are viable multipliers.

[TheMikado]

Whatever Gero's statement was supposed to mean, he was clearly wrong, otherwise he'd have no reason to be surprised like he is here:



(This was right after Goku's initial blow that sent #19 flying.)

After rereading the fight, I concede.

Are we still discussing the 10x multiplier or has that been disproven?

No. What has been disproven is Gero + Suppressed Piccolo + Tenshinhan + Kulilin + Gohan > SSJ Vegeta. Both 10x and 50x are viable multipliers.

How is 10x viable based on what we know of the Oozuru form, its 10x multiplier, and the fact that Vegeta thinks it's not neccessary anymore? Forgetting that stuff, how did we come to the conclusion that 10x is consistent with the rest of the arcs?

[xmysticgohanx]

Whatever Gero's statement was supposed to mean, he was clearly wrong, otherwise he'd have no reason to be surprised like he is here:



(This was right after Goku's initial blow that sent #19 flying.)

After rereading the fight, I concede.

Are we still discussing the 10x multiplier or has that been disproven?

No. What has been disproven is Gero + Suppressed Piccolo + Tenshinhan + Kulilin + Gohan > SSJ Vegeta. Both 10x and 50x are viable multipliers.

How is 10x viable based on what we know of the Oozuru form, its 10x multiplier, and the fact that Vegeta thinks it's not neccessary anymore? Forgetting that stuff, how did we come to the conclusion that 10x is consistent with the rest of the arcs?

They can't turn Ozaru anymore. Plus Ozaru does not seem to increase speed.

10x is just as consistent with the rest of the arcs as 50x or 30x or 44x or 67x etc. We don't have any power levels to say it is not consistent. Toriyama saying he feels it is a 10x boost when he draws it is a better proof to me than Shueisha saying it is 50x.

[TheMikado]

I thought we had power levels in Namek and the SSJ multiplier was extrapolated from there.

[LightBing]

I thought we had power levels in Namek and the SSJ multiplier was extrapolated from there.

The last power levels in the manga were, I guess Freeza saying his second form was above one million or something, not including Mirai Trunks reading. Everything else is made up, no matter if it was that's done by Shueisha. It's still made up and for me it's as good as numbers created by me or any other random person.
This Mr.Toriyama quote is an example of them being wrong in accessing the manga.

x10 wouldn't make sense. Weaker than the Kaioken and equal to Oozaru?! No way. He says x10 from what it was last, from this I can only guess it's x30. It can't be 200x since that far surpasses the x50, which he calls an exaggeration.
My take and what I currently follow, although I don't believe in static multipliers, it doesn't work with the idea of mastering the Super Saiyan form introduced in the Cell Arc.

[TheMikado]

I though Goku was doing Kaioken x20 on Namek so x30 doesn't seem like a large enough jump.

[LightBing]

I though Goku was doing Kaioken x20 on Namek so x30 doesn't seem like a large enough jump.

Freeza took a Genki Dama to the face, even with Goku damaged that would be enough. It would also make Freeza's reasoning for revenge seem a bit more plausible, SSJ Goku dominated that fight. If Freeza's was damaged during the fight, he had every right to believe that with some upgrades and his weaker father help, he would be able to defeat Son Goku at full health.

[TheMikado]

^ I'm not following you on why that matters on x20 Kaioken Goku.

[LightBing]

It allows the x30 to be plausible to dominate Freeza in such fashion, even if the jump from x20 Kaioken isn't that big.

[TheMikado]

It allows the x30 to be plausible to dominate Freeza in such fashion, even if the jump from x20 Kaioken isn't that big.

I'm not understanding the correlation since the spirit bomb isn't made from Gokus life force and has no baring on his own strength.

[xmysticgohanx]

I thought we had power levels in Namek and the SSJ multiplier was extrapolated from there.

The last power levels in the manga were, I guess Freeza saying his second form was above one million or something, not including Mirai Trunks reading. Everything else is made up, no matter if it was that's done by Shueisha. It's still made up and for me it's as good as numbers created by me or any other random person.
This Mr.Toriyama quote is an example of them being wrong in accessing the manga.

x10 wouldn't make sense. Weaker than the Kaioken and equal to Oozaru?! No way. He says x10 from what it was last, from this I can only guess it's x30. It can't be 200x since that far surpasses the x50, which he calls an exaggeration.
My take and what I currently follow, although I don't believe in static multipliers, it doesn't work with the idea of mastering the Super Saiyan form introduced in the Cell Arc.

Shueisha still holds some weight though. Even though they are not primary canon, they are secondary canon (as all guidebooks are). What that basically means is that they should generally be followed unless a decent case can be made for the contrary.

[LightBing]

It allows the x30 to be plausible to dominate Freeza in such fashion, even if the jump from x20 Kaioken isn't that big.

I'm not understanding the correlation since the spirit bomb isn't made from Gokus life force and has no baring on his own strength.

It weakened Freeza to the point the x30 is significant to defeat him.

Shueisha still holds some weight though. Even though they are not primary canon, they are secondary canon (as all guidebooks are). What that basically means is that they should generally be followed unless a decent case can be made for the contrary.

Not to me. Mr.Toriyama barely contributed to the guides, if at all. They are reading the same manga as me, just because they tagged it as official doesn't make it logical or true with the manga. If someone defends an idea by saying, "it's in a guidebook", it's hard to take them seriously if they can't put thought into the idea they defend.

I'll concede to anyone if offered a plausible explanation.

[Speedster]

Attempting to assign static power level multipliers for transformations is something futile as the scouter power level scale is both non-linear (i.e. doubling for instance you power level results to a bigger than 2-fold increase in actual strength or other fighting capability) AND piece-wise (i.e. increases have different meaning within different ranges).

As for Gero’s statement about defeating Vegeta by absorbing the energy of Piccolo and the others it comes AFTER himself seeing Vegeta in action and being surprised.

Spoiler:

He only said that he miscalculated after Piccolo explained to him that they can use their power in bursts -- Vegeta was right next to him when he said so and it was as if he agreed as not at any point did Vegeta not feel confident of being much superior to Piccolo. Below is the bursts statement from Piccolo both in the manga and the anime:

Spoiler:

The certain thing is that Gero is not stupid. He did sense Vegeta in action during his battle against #19. And Vegeta despite losing most of his energy bluffed about being able to take on Gero right after, so if anything Gero had to account for that too and overestimate him. So whatever he was sensing it was not a suppressed energy level. Alternatively (though far fetched given the narrative) there is the possibility that Vegeta and Piccolo fought against #19 and #20 in a similar fashion that Goku did against the Ginyu force, where he was momentarily using 2/3 of his full base power but it was done so fast "in bursts" that it was not picked up by the scouters. But you have to say that Goku did that too against #19 and he clearly wasn’t. So his multiplier against #19 must had been a small fraction of what the full SSJ multiplier is when Goku is healthy.

To me though the whole thing seems to be Toriyama using video game logic like we see in DB Super lately...

Spoiler:

In any case I am pretty sure that Toriyama never thought SSJ as a 50x multiplier post Freeza arc. Just the base is stronger. If anything in the Buu arc he introduced the kili scale and Yakkon was 800 (Goku is at least on par with him in base) and when Goku transformed into SSJ he went 3000. That is a 3.75x multiplier. We also saw base Vegeta fighting kid Buu (chapter 516)...It is whatever serves the plot!

[TheMikado]

It allows the x30 to be plausible to dominate Freeza in such fashion, even if the jump from x20 Kaioken isn't that big.

I'm not understanding the correlation since the spirit bomb isn't made from Gokus life force and has no baring on his own strength.

It weakened Freeza to the point the x30 is significant to defeat him.

I'm still not following this reasoning. How can you compare Goku's strength of Kaioken or a multiplier to the strength of the Spirit Bomb as a feat?
It's not generated from his own Ki so it's not even comparable? If that's your primary argument for x30 I'm really not following at all. It's not like the Spirit Bomb itself had a power level that we could rate it at. It could be weaker than Base Goku or Stronger than SSJ Goku we have no idea especially since it caught Frieza off guard. I'm just really not following how its possible to use the Spirit Bomb as a gauge of anyone's power level?

Maybe someone else can explain it to me because honestly I'm feeling pretty stupid for not understanding this.