DBSuper Manga Ch.13 -- Revival of Red Haired God??

[ChiefWamsutta]

Has anyone else read Ch.13 of the DBSuper manga yet?! Apparently in Goku's fight with Hit he starts off the fight in Base, transforms into a Super Saiyan, then transforms into a Super Saiyan God, THEN mid-attack shifts into Super Saiyan Blue. He never ends up using SSB KK. ... Wow ... Like, what?

This is such a huge plot point that the manga chose to deviate from the anime on. I wonder why Toyotaro chose to go down that route, and how Goku can even access SSGod Red hair like that -- he shouldn't be able to just transform into it, right? And fazing into SSB mid-attack is so weird too ... I'm all puzzled.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

This is such a huge plot point that the manga chose to deviate from the anime on. I wonder why Toyotaro chose to go down that route, and how Goku can even access SSGod Red hair like that -- he shouldn't be able to just transform into it, right? And fazing into SSB mid-attack is so weird too ... I'm all puzzled.

It was never stablished neither in the anime nor manga that Goku can´t transform into SSGod after achiving SSGodSS, it´s like thinking that Goku can´t use SS1 or SS2 because he has SS3.

[Darkprince410]

This is such a huge plot point that the manga chose to deviate from the anime on. I wonder why Toyotaro chose to go down that route, and how Goku can even access SSGod Red hair like that -- he shouldn't be able to just transform into it, right? And fazing into SSB mid-attack is so weird too ... I'm all puzzled.

It was never stablished neither in the anime nor manga that Goku can´t transform into SSGod after achiving SSGodSS, it´s like thinking that Goku can´t use SS1 or SS2 because he has SS3.

It wasn't established that he could or not, but by Toriyama's own words, after he had absorbed the power of the Ssj God, he wouldn't have needed to become the red-haired Ssj God anymore.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?

I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

It wasn't established that he could or not, but by Toriyama's own words, after he had absorbed the power of the Ssj God, he wouldn't have needed to become the red-haired Ssj God anymore.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?

I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

Key word: Need

That doesn´t mean that Goku lose the capacity to transform, which is what OP was thinking/confusing.

[ChiefWamsutta]

We've also never been shown evidence that he could transform into SSGod again. SSGod to SSGSS is not the same as SS1 to SS2 to SS3. SSGod is an entirely different transformation that is done only through the ritual; there is no jump to it from Base or SS as shown in the manga.

Goku can access SSGSS because SS is the conduit for the God Ki's power and they bring forth the God Ki in their SSGSS state. He absorbed the power of SSGod -- key word being power not form -- that in no way states that he can access the form in any other way than through the intended ritual.

Regardless, the way the chapter describes transforming into SSGod is flawed and makes no sense. This was nothing more than Toriyama giving Toyotaro and Toei a vague guideline as to how the Hit v. Goku fight should go -- both groups interpreted it in their own way. The way Toyotaro did it makes little sense and contradicts or toes-the-line of contradicting previously stated ideas. In the anime Old Kai at least gives a reason for why Goku uses SSB KK. There is no solid (or attempt at a solid) explanation as to why Goku can use SSGod again.

[MadSaiyantist]

I'm glad that Super Saiyan God is back even if it is for one time. I don't know what the text says but Goku could possibly be explaining the concept of God Ki a bit more. Vegeta seemed surprised that Goku took the Red Haired form meaning it could be the first time that he sees it too. Whis had a decent amount of text once Goku was in God form so again, I hope it gets explained.

Toriyama: Alright so in this part of the fight, Goku is going to turn into a Super Saiyan God.
Toei: That's the one with red hair right?
Toriyama: Yes
-Weeks later-
Goku: KAIOKEN!!!
Toei: ...close enough

[Grimlock]

Toriyama: Alright so in this part of the fight, Goku is going to turn into a Super Saiyan God.
Toei: That's the one with red hair right?
Toriyama: Yes
-Weeks later-
Goku: KAIOKEN!!!
Toei: ...close enough

It could be the other way around, you know.

Toriyama: Alright so in this part of the fight, Goku is going to use Kaio-Ken.
Toyotaro: That's something that has red in it, right?
Toriyama: Yes.
- Weeks later -
Goku: *Turns Super Saiyan God*
Toyotaro: ... Close enough.

[Zephyr]

It was more than likely incredibly vague as to how Goku and Hit amped up their battle, so Toei and Toyotaro probably just filled in the blanks how they each saw fit.

Toei's used Kaioken long after Goku had retired it once before, so this actually all makes more sense.

I don't think that Toriyama, Toei, Toyotaro, Bamco, etc. care at all for how this effects peoples attempts at a singular unified coherent set of in universe rules, laws, and events, and I don't think that they need to.

[LowRyder2005]

Toriyama: Alright so in this part of the fight, Goku is going to turn into a Super Saiyan God.
Toei: That's the one with red hair right?
Toriyama: Yes
-Weeks later-
Goku: KAIOKEN!!!
Toei: ...close enough

It could be the other way around, you know.

Toriyama: Alright so in this part of the fight, Goku is going to use Kaio-Ken.
Toyotaro: That's something that has red in it, right?
Toriyama: Yes.
- Weeks later -
Goku: *Turns Super Saiyan God*
Toyotaro: ... Close enough.

That's kind of improbable, though, since Toriyama re-checks the manga chapter storyboard.

I think the point was that Hit had to defeat Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta easily but still put an epic fight against Super Saiyan Blue Goku: TOEI brought the Kaioken back as an equalizer, Toyotaro used the "turning off Blue = massive power loss".

[Bullza]

Even after he supposedly absorbed it in the movie he was still able to become a SSJG again. Toriyama said that he doesn't need to but maybe he changed his mind or maybe he didn't and was just something Toyotaro decided to include in there.

[jplaya2023]

You guys have to understand what AT is saying.

He said in an interview goku won't turn ssj2 or ssj3 anymore, that does not mean he can't if he wanted to.

Also,

goku and vegeta have 2 different sources of Ki now (Think of naruto have kyubbi chakra, and his normal chakra, that he can access both independently from eachother). Goku and Vegeta have their normal Ki which they can use SSJ 1-3, Kaioken etc... Then goku and vegeta have god ki which goku uses ssj red, while vegeta does not. When they mix god ki with their normal ki, we then get ssj blue

[Lord Beerus]

I honestly makes now sense for Goku to transform into Super Saiyan God, because that in itself confirms that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, just like what Toriyama stated in a previous interview. Goku didn't need to become a Super Saiyan God, because his base form is already the same strength as the transformation itself. The only reason we saw Super Saiyan God again is for fan service.

[MadSaiyantist]

I honestly makes now sense for Goku to transform into Super Saiyan God, because that in itself confirms that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, just like what Toriyama stated in a previous interview. Goku didn't need to become a Super Saiyan God, because his base form is already the same strength as the transformation itself. The only reason we saw Super Saiyan God again is for fan service.

I thought scanlations said that SsjG Goku was stronger than 1/10 of SsjB Vegeta. If that's true, then there's no way SsjG Goku is equal in strength to his base form right? Unless this is going into the two base theory...

[Lord Beerus]

I honestly makes now sense for Goku to transform into Super Saiyan God, because that in itself confirms that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, just like what Toriyama stated in a previous interview. Goku didn't need to become a Super Saiyan God, because his base form is already the same strength as the transformation itself. The only reason we saw Super Saiyan God again is for fan service.

I thought scanlations said that SsjG Goku was stronger than 1/10 of SsjB Vegeta. If that's true, then there's no way SsjG Goku is equal in strength to his base form right? Unless this is going into the two base theory...

The two base theory is only way any of this makes sense.

[Grimlock]

That's kind of improbable, though, since Toriyama re-checks the manga chapter storyboard.

I think the point was that Hit had to defeat Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta easily but still put an epic fight against Super Saiyan Blue Goku: TOEI brought the Kaioken back as an equalizer, Toyotaro used the "turning off Blue = massive power loss".

He does, but that doesn't mean the idea of bringing back Super Saiyan God comes from Toriyama. Maybe Toyotaro uses the transformation for the rest of the story while Toei uses Kaio-Ken (now "mastered"). Actually I would like that to happen.

[Xeztin]

I honestly makes now sense for Goku to transform into Super Saiyan God, because that in itself confirms that Goku absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God into his base form, just like what Toriyama stated in a previous interview. Goku didn't need to become a Super Saiyan God, because his base form is already the same strength as the transformation itself. The only reason we saw Super Saiyan God again is for fan service.

I thought scanlations said that SsjG Goku was stronger than 1/10 of SsjB Vegeta. If that's true, then there's no way SsjG Goku is equal in strength to his base form right? Unless this is going into the two base theory...

The two base theory is only way any of this makes sense.

That's what I'm banking on too for this to make sense. Base Goku>SSJ/God Ki turned on in Base (SSG) and going Super Saiyan from that (SSJB). That makes the whole "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" thing make sense, because it really is a SSG going Super Saiyan.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Did Toriyama really say Goku absorbed it into his Base form specifically? I always treated it as Goku's Base is just very strong now and he uses Super Saiyan. When he wants to use God Ki he pushes it through into his Super Saiyan form, so it becomes SSB.

Even then, how could Vegeta's Base be on the same level as Goku's Base since he didn't absorb the God Ki in the same way.

[RandomGuy96]

Toriyama: Alright so in this part of the fight, Goku is going to turn into a Super Saiyan God.
Toei: That's the one with red hair right?
Toriyama: Yes
-Weeks later-
Goku: KAIOKEN!!!
Toei: ...close enough

It could be the other way around, you know.

Toriyama: Alright so in this part of the fight, Goku is going to use Kaio-Ken.
Toyotaro: That's something that has red in it, right?
Toriyama: Yes.
- Weeks later -
Goku: *Turns Super Saiyan God*
Toyotaro: ... Close enough.

That's kind of improbable, though, since Toriyama re-checks the manga chapter storyboard.

I think the point was that Hit had to defeat Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta easily but still put an epic fight against Super Saiyan Blue Goku: TOEI brought the Kaioken back as an equalizer, Toyotaro used the "turning off Blue = massive power loss".

Pretty lame either way. They could have just used "Vegeta was taken off guard by the time-skip". IMO that would have been a much better reason for Goku faring better rather than just being outright ten times stronger than Vegeta.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Pretty lame either way. They could have just used "Vegeta was taken off guard by the time-skip". IMO that would have been a much better reason for Goku faring better rather than just being outright ten times stronger than Vegeta.

I really didn't like this chapter for this reason and many others. It honestly rudely insults the little consistency that we have in this series, and it bothers me that no one seems to be trying.