Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Vados_chan]

Except the manga doesn't matter, it's just a promotional tool for the anime.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Except the manga doesn't matter, it's just a promotional tool for the anime.

It's so irrelevant that Toriyama supervises it page-by-page since its first chapter, and he even redraws pages when he sees something wrong...

[RandomGuy96]

@RandomGuy96
I forgot that we had the 50% Freeza information to guess a lot of things. My bad. Still past that it's all relatively in the dark, that's why people can't agree on where the the Humans were, how strong #19, #20 were. With the recent 10% Blue line the Super manga stands equal to the original manga, in the clues it provides. Since now we have a reference point.

How strong the humans were doesn't really matter; we know that they're much weaker than the base saiyans, and they never fight past this point. 19 and 20 aren't exactly quantified, but we still know that they're far above the base saiyans and far below the Super Saiyans, and can tell from various implications that they're probably not stronger than Freeza. Based on what Kami says about Piccolo.

This isn't unique to the Android arc. In the Saiyan arc, things are even more clear. Goku and Piccolo are about 1/3 to 1/4 the power of Raditz, the Saibamen are close in power to Raditz, post-training Yamcha is about as strong as Raditz, post-training Chaozu and calm Gohan are probably weaker than Raditz, post-training Tenshinhan and Krillin are a good deal stronger than Raditz but weaker than post-training Piccolo, Piccolo and "angry" Gohan are stronger than the others but a good deal weaker than Nappa (though not so much weaker that they can't hurt him), Nappa is weaker than post-training base Goku who is 1/2 as strong as KK x2 Goku, KK x2 Goku is x2 base Goku and moderately weaker than base Vegeta, and KK x3 Goku much stronger than Vegeta, just not by enough to one-shot him or anything. Everything's clearly laid out.

In the Freeza arc, there's explicitly given battle powers for almost every character until after Freeza transforms. For example, Cui and Vegeta were both 18,000, post-zenkai Vegeta is 24,000, and Zarbon and Dodoria lie somewhere between them. Even after that we get the Kaio-Ken and Freeza's percentages.

In the Buu arc, Dabra is compared to some version of Perfect Cell, while SS2 Vegeta and Goku are said to be a little bit stronger than SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games. Again, clear comparisons to past powers. It would be like if Goku, at the tournament, said that Frost was as strong as some form of Majin Buu after he went to his final form. Actually, that would be much vaguer than any of the above examples, but still a lot more solid than anything we've been given.

The anime, lacks a reference point. But you can still say, SSJ Goku is much stronger than Final Form Frost, Cabba is equal to Vegeta.

Vegeta sat still and let Cabba rain dozens of attacks on him to no effect, indicating he was screwing around for the whole fight. So Cabba's level is as vague as ever, besides "weaker than Vegeta". MAYBE you could extend that to "weaker than first form Frost", since he seemed as shocked as anyone when Frost transformed, and Frost is generally considered to be the top dog who is widely known of in his universe, but that doesn't help much. We don't know strong first form Frost is either, other than that he's presumably noticeably weaker than second form Frost, who would be noticeably weaker than Assault Form Frost.

We just don't know if they're SSJ1 level or Gods, how they compare among themselves is discernible.
Regarding the contradictions, the Super anime makes a lot of them. That's why the manga is my tool of choice to make power distinctions.

In the manga and previous arcs, we did get comparisons to previous powers. Hence why Super is breaking the precedent with its vagueness and contradictory nature.

[LightBing]

Except the manga doesn't matter, it's just a promotional tool for the anime.

It's so irrelevant that Toriyama supervises it page-by-page since its first chapter, and he even redraws pages when he sees something wrong...

Or that nowhere was it said it was "just a promotional tool". Of course it's a promotional tool, everything with Dragon Ball on it is one by proxy. It simply isn't "just a promotional tool".

@RandomGuy96
I forgot that we had the 50% Freeza information to guess a lot of things. My bad. Still past that it's all relatively in the dark, that's why people can't agree on where the the Humans were, how strong #19, #20 were. With the recent 10% Blue line the Super manga stands equal to the original manga, in the clues it provides. Since now we have a reference point.

How strong the humans were doesn't really matter; we know that they're much weaker than the base saiyans, and they never fight past this point. 19 and 20 aren't exactly quantified, but we still know that they're far above the base saiyans and far below the Super Saiyans, and can tell from various implications that they're probably not stronger than Freeza. Based on what Kami says about Piccolo.

This isn't unique to the Android arc. In the Saiyan arc, things are even more clear. Goku and Piccolo are about 1/3 to 1/4 the power of Raditz, the Saibamen are close in power to Raditz, post-training Yamcha is about as strong as Raditz, post-training Chaozu and calm Gohan are probably weaker than Raditz, post-training Tenshinhan and Krillin are a good deal stronger than Raditz but weaker than post-training Piccolo, Piccolo and "angry" Gohan are stronger than the others but a good deal weaker than Nappa (though not so much weaker that they can't hurt him), Nappa is weaker than post-training base Goku who is 1/2 as strong as KK x2 Goku, KK x2 Goku is x2 base Goku and moderately weaker than base Vegeta, and KK x3 Goku much stronger than Vegeta, just not by enough to one-shot him or anything. Everything's clearly laid out.

In the Freeza arc, there's explicitly given battle powers for almost every character until after Freeza transforms. For example, Cui and Vegeta were both 18,000, post-zenkai Vegeta is 24,000, and Zarbon and Dodoria lie somewhere between them. Even after that we get the Kaio-Ken and Freeza's percentages.

In the Buu arc, Dabra is compared to some version of Perfect Cell, while SS2 Vegeta and Goku are said to be a little bit stronger than SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games. Again, clear comparisons to past powers. It would be like if Goku, at the tournament, said that Frost was as strong as some form of Majin Buu after he went to his final form. Actually, that would be much vaguer than any of the above examples, but still a lot more solid than anything we've been given.

The anime, lacks a reference point. But you can still say, SSJ Goku is much stronger than Final Form Frost, Cabba is equal to Vegeta.

Vegeta sat still and let Cabba rain dozens of attacks on him to no effect, indicating he was screwing around for the whole fight. So Cabba's level is as vague as ever, besides "weaker than Vegeta". MAYBE you could extend that to "weaker than first form Frost", since he seemed as shocked as anyone when Frost transformed, and Frost is generally considered to be the top dog who is widely known of in his universe, but that doesn't help much. We don't know strong first form Frost is either, other than that he's presumably noticeably weaker than second form Frost, who would be noticeably weaker than Assault Form Frost.

We just don't know if they're SSJ1 level or Gods, how they compare among themselves is discernible.
Regarding the contradictions, the Super anime makes a lot of them. That's why the manga is my tool of choice to make power distinctions.

In the manga and previous arcs, we did get comparisons to previous powers. Hence why Super is breaking the precedent with its vagueness and contradictory nature.

Again lack of a reference point. The fight's are still there for us to see. I'm pretty sure Base Cabba was said by Vegeta to be equal to his base form. In their SSJ state, like you described they imply the difference. The tournament in a bubble is easy to figure out, relatively. Of we go beyond that, the problems begin.

Now the manga. By using Piccolo as a reference - no change/insignificant change in power -, we can start painting a picture. The 10% Blue information, provides us the scale.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It'd have to follow the continuity of the movie because it's the only version of that story (at the time anyway) that readers are familiar with.

You can go by whichever version you like, but Toyotaro & Toriyama are going by the BoG arc adaptation & the FnF arc description of the Super manga. In this continuity, Goku (and later Vegeta) doesn't absorb the power of Super Saiyan God in his base & SS forms. Both Goku & Vegeta are in their regular levels, since Piccolo is still weaker than SS Goku, SS Vegeta, and Majin Boo, but weaker than base Goku & Vegeta, and SSG Goku is many times stronger than SS Goku, while in the movies base & SS Goku is barely weaker than SSG Goku.

If you want to ignore the BoG arc of the manga & want to follow the movies without any retcons, the only reasonable explanation (that I can think of) is that after they trained inside the RoSaT, Goku & Vegeta learned how to transform into Super Saiyan God at will, which allows them to control & turn off the SSG power of in their base forms. So, since they now know how to turn into SSG on their own, they have now abandoned the SSG-powered base state.

In the anime aswell Goku said Buu before Piccolo and nobody commented on Piccolo being any stronger during the Tournament. Pretty much the same exact dialogue was used for when he was about to fight Frost.

We didn't get a statement for Piccolo in the anime, but we saw him fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan, and causing trouble against Final Form Frost, who is at least close in power with base Goku & Vegeta, if not stronger, and base Goku & Vegeta are now stronger than BoG SS3 Goku, SS3 Gotenks, U. Gohan, and base Vegetto. In the manga, Frost hasn't been portrayed to be so strong, and he is even implied to be much weaker than the revived Freeza since Goku tells him to go & train like Freeza did. We also never saw Piccolo doing any training with Gohan, or anyone.

Well to my knowledge the chapter hasn't been scanlated yet so I can only go by the images but that could still fit. It could still go SSJG > SSJ > Base just with 1/10th SSJB being somewhere in between SSJG and SSJB.

TheDevilsCorpse's fiance speaks Korean, so we know that SSB Vegeta, who rivals SSB Goku at full power, was only using 1/10th of his power against Hit, and it is stated that SSG Goku was stronger than 1/10th SSB Vegeta.

[Chiki]

I find it pretty hard to believe that in the anime, the U6 contestants and Piccolo are gods, while in the manga they are not. That's just silly.

[Bullza]

You can go by whichever version you like, but Toyotaro & Toriyama are going by the BoG arc adaptation & the FnF arc description of the Super manga.

Why would Toriyama go by a rushed adaptation by Toyotaro instead of his own version that he wrote? The description for Resurrection F in the manga is perfectly true for the movie and the anime aswell.

The same events that happened in the movie or anime, makes no difference, would have almost certainly have happened in the manga.

Both Goku & Vegeta are in their regular levels, since Piccolo is still weaker than SS Goku, SS Vegeta, and Majin Boo, but weaker than base Goku & Vegeta

You mean stronger than base? Either way the exact same thing was said repeatedly for the anime which is why the two base theory came about. However it turned out that people were reading into it wrong and he wasn't.

So Piccolo isn't stronger than the Base Saiyans meaning they are above regular levels.

SSG Goku is many times stronger than SS Goku, while in the movies base & SS Goku is barely weaker than SSG Goku.

Well we don't know that do we? You said he's stronger than 10% SSJB but maybe that is only slightly above SSJ. Unless there was something to suggest that 10% SSJB was far above Super Saiyan.

If you want to ignore the BoG arc of the manga & want to follow the movies without any retcons, the only reasonable explanation....

The simplest explanation is that he did absorb it and there was just no place for it to be said at that time. He fought only as Super Saiyan God, the fight ended, he reverted to base, they had a little chat and then they left.

If he didn't fight Beerus in any other form how could they know he'd absorbed it? So Beerus would have left, Goku would soon after realise he'd absorbed it and then the events of Resurrection F would have played out as normal rather than their unnecessarily being a completely different version of events.

Thus the three versions match up just fine.

We didn't get a statement for Piccolo in the anime, but we saw him fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan.

But Piccolo isn't going to be levels above what he is in the manga just because there was a couple minute expanded scene in the anime. It's still the same Piccolo who was mentioned after Buu, who stood no chance against Frost, didn't want to fight Frost in his final form and fought on the defensive and used strategy to do better than he should have.

It most likely wasn't Ultimate Gohan anyway. If he'd reclaimed his former peak power then you'd think it would have been have mentioned. It was just ordinary Base Gohan.

It's overcomplicating matters to assume that even though events are similiar that they're at two completely different levels of power over a couple of trivialities.

TheDevilsCorpse's fiance speaks Korean, so we know that SSB Vegeta, who rivals SSB Goku at full power, was only using 1/10th of his power against Hit, and it is stated that SSG Goku was stronger than 1/10th SSB Vegeta.

But if it went like this

SSJG - 100
SSJB - 95
SSJ - 90
Base - 80

It'd technically still work out. After all the same Hit who knocked SSJB Vegeta out fought Base Goku and he was able to withstand an attack and even make Hit bleed.

[Saturnine]

I don't see a problem with Cabba being equal to Vegeta in Base, but inferior in SSj.

Cabba is a fresh SSj, while Vegeta is a FPSSj.

FPSSj lets you power up, as evidenced by the aura change in the manga, which is identical to Grade 2's aura. So a FPSSj can very likely have access to the part of power Grade 2 or even 3 give, minus the enlarged muscles and stamina drain.

I know it's not good to mix the manga and the anime at your convenience, but in the latest chapter Goku stated plainly that SSj would be enough for Vegeta to beat Cabba. The anime itself also clearly demonstrated this to be true, with Vegeta no-selling Cabba's forehead punch.

Base Cabba = Base Vegeta
SSj Cabba < SSj Vegeta

Take it as you will, I see no contradiction

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I find it pretty hard to believe that in the anime, the U6 contestants and Piccolo are gods, while in the manga they are not. That's just silly.

In GT, Redgic & some space worms are stronger than GT base Goku, who is stronger than Boo arc SS3 Goku. It's not the first time we see Toei BS.

Why would Toriyama go by a rushed adaptation by Toyotaro instead of his own version that he wrote?

I dunno. Both the manga & anime consistenly show that there is a big difference between base & SS for Goku & Vegeta, so Toriyama is apparently writing Super with base & SS having a big difference, which wasn't the case in BoG.

You mean stronger than base? Either way the exact same thing was said repeatedly for the anime which is why the two base theory came about. However it turned out that people were reading into it wrong and he wasn't.

So Piccolo isn't stronger than the Base Saiyans meaning they are above regular levels.

I meant stronger, yeah. There is no indication how they relate in the manga, other than they are at least close in power.

Well we don't know that do we?

We do know that. It was stated in the manga that SSG Goku is stronger than 1/10th SSB Vegeta, and SS Goku wasn't.

The simplest explanation is that he did absorb it and there was just no place for it to be said at that time.

Just like with the 2 base theory, we are getting into the 3rd arc (4rth if you count the skipped FnF arc), and there has been no mention of Goku absorbing the SSG power anywhere.

[Chiki]

In GT, Redgic & some space worms are stronger than GT base Goku, who is stronger than Boo arc SS3 Goku. It's not the first time we see Toei BS.

The Champa arc has outlines from Toriyama himself though, and just like in the manga, Buu is forced to not participate in the tournament (which I was right about in that it confirms Buu is >>> U6 fighters). It also means that in the anime, Piccolo is god level unlike in the manga where he didn't get a power boost.

Of course, all these problems are solved with the two base theory, which is very likely to be confirmed in the next ep.

[dbgtFO]

Of course, all these problems are solved with the two base theory, which is very likely to be confirmed in the next ep.

I wouldn't get my hopes up.
They may even gloss over the fact that Trunks apparently does well against Goku or in worst case scenario Goku will be like, "oh wow Trunks you got so much stronger!"
making people go: "Super Vegetto << Super Saiyan Trunks confirmed!!"

[Chiki]

Of course, all these problems are solved with the two base theory, which is very likely to be confirmed in the next ep.

I wouldn't get my hopes up.
They may even gloss over the fact that Trunks apparently does well against Goku or in worst case scenario Goku will be like, "oh wow Trunks you got so much stronger!"
making people go: "Super Vegetto << Super Saiyan Trunks confirmed!!"

Well, Trunks didn't even have a sparring partner so that would be even more bullshit than Piccolo becoming stronger than SSG Goku.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Champa arc has outlines from Toriyama himself though, and just like in the manga, Buu is forced to not participate in the tournament (which I was right about in that it confirms Buu is >>> U6 fighters). It also means that in the anime, Piccolo is god level unlike in the manga where he didn't get a power boost.

Toriyama is responsible for the story draft, but the final changes are made by Toei.

[MadSaiyantist]

Of course, all these problems are solved with the two base theory, which is very likely to be confirmed in the next ep.

I wouldn't get my hopes up.
They may even gloss over the fact that Trunks apparently does well against Goku or in worst case scenario Goku will be like, "oh wow Trunks you got so much stronger!"
making people go: "Super Vegetto << Super Saiyan Trunks confirmed!!"

Well, Trunks didn't even have a sparring partner so that would be even more bullshit than Piccolo becoming stronger than SSG Goku.

Trunks is most likely going to have a massive jump in strength from the Cell saga without much explanation.

[HeroR]

The Champa arc has outlines from Toriyama himself though, and just like in the manga, Buu is forced to not participate in the tournament (which I was right about in that it confirms Buu is >>> U6 fighters). It also means that in the anime, Piccolo is god level unlike in the manga where he didn't get a power boost.

Toriyama is responsible for the story draft, but the final changes are made by Toei.

And Toriyama reads and approves of it, just like the Super manga.

[Bullza]

I dunno. Both the manga & anime consistenly show that there is a big difference between base & SS for Goku & Vegeta, so Toriyama is apparently writing Super with base & SS having a big difference, which wasn't the case in BoG.

Well that is somewhat true, it is a little awkward but then in the BoG arc in the anime you had Base Goku stopping a blast that Super Saiyan Goku struggled with which would not suggest a big difference either just like in the movie. Toriyama did say that while he wouldn't need to go Super Saiyan God anymore, mastering their base AND Super Saiyan states would make him stronger, so there is a difference between the two.

There is no indication how they relate in the manga, other than they are at least close in power.

What indication is that?

We do know that. It was stated in the manga that SSG Goku is stronger than 1/10th SSB Vegeta, and SS Goku wasn't.

No I'm referring to you saying that SSJG is many times stronger than SSJ. Was that said? Because if all that was said was that he was stronger than SSJB 10% then couldn't he only be a little stronger than that? And SSJB 10% would only be a little stronger than SSJ? Making SSJG just a bit stronger than SSJ.

Just like with the 2 base theory, we are getting into the 3rd arc (4rth if you count the skipped FnF arc), and there has been no mention of Goku absorbing the SSG power anywhere.

Well there's been plenty of opportunities for the two base theory to be clarified, in particular somewhere during the Champa arc but it was never said. It's still something that could still be brought up now but isn't likely to. Goku absorbing SSJG wouldn't be mentioned at this point.

Like I said in the manga it wasn't said in the same place it was said in the movie or in the anime because Goku never reverted back and continued fighting for it to even be said. It would have just been something that happened after fighting Beerus and before the events of Resurrection F.

Super Saiyan Blue is supposed to be the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God. In the manga Goku can still become a Super Saiyan Blue so he must have the power of a Super Saiyan God unless in the manga unlike every other version and unlike everything else that has been said about it, SSJB works completely different altogether. That's not very likely at all.

I don't see the need to overcomplicate it. He absorbed it but it just wasn't said on panel, the Resurrection F movie played out as readers think it did and the anime and manga match up as they should being based on the same outline. That makes far more sense than in the manga he didn't absorb it, the Resurrection F story played out very differently and nobody knows how and then half the characters are several levels lower than they are in the anime even though you would never have known that if the manga had started with the Champa arc.

[RandomGuy96]

So, uh... anyone know how valid this advertisement for that new Dragon Ball attraction is? Because it puts Freeza's post-training battle power at 53 billion. At least, I think it does.

0:50 - 0:55: "After all this time, my combat power is 53 billion!!".

0:23 - 0:27: "Do you want to know the most interesting number? My battle power as of now... it's 53 billion!"

[ekrolo2]

So, uh... anyone know how valid this advertisement for that new Dragon Ball attraction is? Because it puts Freeza's post-training battle power at 53 billion. At least, I think it does.

0:50 - 0:55: "After all this time, my combat power is 53 billion!!".

0:23 - 0:27: "Do you want to know the most interesting number? My battle power as of now... it's 53 billion!"

Just watch someone use this as legit evidence.

[RandomGuy96]

By utter coincidence that fits the level I'd put him at in my battle power lists anyway. Moderately weaker than ROF-era base Goku, who is noticeably but not excessively weaker than Black Goku era base Goku, who is as strong as Piccolo, who is as strong as an Ultimate Gohan implied to be slightly below his Buu arc self.

[ekrolo2]

By utter coincidence that fits the level I'd put him at in my battle power lists anyway. Moderately weaker than ROF-era base Goku, who is noticeably but not excessively weaker than Black Goku era base Goku, who is as strong as Piccolo, who is as strong as an Ultimate Gohan implied to be slightly below his Buu arc self.

Was just about to say lol. For a level that means nothing it would surprisingly work for the TV show, not sure about the manga since Toyotaro's clearly keeping Goku & Vegeta's progress down over there.