The Things GT Got Right

[Cetra]

I'd probably dislike Goku being turned into a kid if he wasn't actually written more mature than any basically anything else. In GT, he's actually shown giving a damn about the Earth and his closest companions and when Baby beats him, he's not "Man! This guys so strong!". Instead, he feels sad and disappointed this guys going to take over his world and he can't do a damn thing about it.

Well, not completely. Goku actually says that he is happy someone this strong exists while lying on the ground, defeated. At least in the original.

[ekrolo2]

I'd probably dislike Goku being turned into a kid if he wasn't actually written more mature than any basically anything else. In GT, he's actually shown giving a damn about the Earth and his closest companions and when Baby beats him, he's not "Man! This guys so strong!". Instead, he feels sad and disappointed this guys going to take over his world and he can't do a damn thing about it.

Well, not completely. Goku actually says that he is happy someone this strong exists while lying on the ground, defeated. At least in the original.

He doesn't actually, not in a way where he sounds glad anyway but in more of a sad and frustrated one. Although, I might be watching bad subs for it.

[Cetra]

I'd probably dislike Goku being turned into a kid if he wasn't actually written more mature than any basically anything else. In GT, he's actually shown giving a damn about the Earth and his closest companions and when Baby beats him, he's not "Man! This guys so strong!". Instead, he feels sad and disappointed this guys going to take over his world and he can't do a damn thing about it.

Well, not completely. Goku actually says that he is happy someone this strong exists while lying on the ground, defeated. At least in the original.

He doesn't actually, not in a way where he sounds glad anyway but in more of a sad and frustrated one. Although, I might be watching bad subs for it.

I need to rewatch it but I am sure. Even if there is some sadness he did say he likes that someone that strong exists. But I'll be back once I have rewatched it. That is the good thing about the German boxes. Germany got such a censored and cut version that a lot of episodes are just the Japanese ones.

[Zephyr]

Obligatory things:
- Every single fucking thing about Vegeta
- Goku vs. Ledgic
- Adding new depth to the Saiyan-Tsufruian conflict
- Uub and Buu fusing
- Super Saiyan 4's design and means of attainment
- Minus Energy and Evil Dragons (conceptually, at least)
- That last episode

---

I guess I'm in the minority that finds the Super 17 arc to be the best chunk of GT, overall. The two arcs surrounding it are filled with far too many sub plots that take up 2 or 3 episodes, that should have only taken up 1 episode (Imegga, Zunama, Lood, Goku in Sugoroku Space, the first 3 Evil Dragons, and the 4th Evil Dragon all spring immediately to mind), whereas this arc didn't really drag at any point in the same way.

While there are plenty of missed opportunities (it wouldn't be an arc of GT if there weren't), there's just so much to love about the arc:
Seeing Mu and Gero team up was awesome. Goku being a smug prick is one of my favorite parts of him when he's little, and they put that to great use here when he fights Freeza and Cell. Videl, Chichi, and Bra get amped up and ready to take part in the battle against the revived villains (Bra in particular showing, in her personality, small hints of that Saiyan blood she has). Piccolo having to trash Heaven in order to be sent to Hell. Piccolo and Dende got to do some weird Namekian/Kami dimensional rift-opening stuff. 18 finally got some actual characterization going on. The final battle of the arc had a sense of scale rarely seen past the Namek arc (Super 17 being punched across the planet, and then firing blasts back across it at Goku).

It's also short to the point that it never overstays its welcome, and it leads directly into the Evil Dragons arc.

---

Other little things that I enjoyed:
- Using the Taiyoken at various moments where you'd expect them to remember that the move exists
- Uub creating a tornado of ki out of his candy beam, and using it in a beam struggle against Baby
- The good dragon being born out of Goku's grandpa's Dragon Ball

[ABED]

I guess I'm in the minority that finds the Super 17 arc to be the best chunk of GT, overall. The two arcs surrounding it are filled with far too many sub plots that take up 2 or 3 episodes, that should have only taken up 1 episode (Imegga, Zunama, Lood, Goku in Sugoroku Space, the first 3 Evil Dragons, and the 4th Evil Dragon all spring immediately to mind), whereas this arc didn't really drag at any point in the same way.

Super 17 may have been short but it still dragged. The fight was just not interesting enough even in the short space it occupied. While I agree that there are certain things that could've been condensed. I don't know if I'd call the things you mentioned subplots, certainly not the Evil Dragons. I like that each got an episode. And while I think the Luud and Imegga episodes could've been condensed, I don't think they could've been done well in single episodes.

[sintzu]

In what way ?

The character designs, the writing, the main plots & the overall production.

GT did the same thing but unlike Super it did a better job at hiding it cause more effort went into making a story rather then a merchandise commercial.

The Buu arc lead into the Black star search arc which lead into the Baby arc. the Super 17 arc lead into the shadow dragons arc.

Its stories were more connected with each other and the manga then Super's are and the characters were developed more then they're being in Super.

Super's arcs on the other hand aren't telling one connected story, each one is a standalone that has very little to do with what came before it and the decisions they've made are focused on selling toys rather then telling a story and developing characters.

Could that change ? yes, I think the Black arc has the potential to lead into another arc by ending with the heroes getting stuck in another timeline or universe which will kick off a new arc.

[Zephyr]

Super 17 may have been short but it still dragged. The fight was just not interesting enough even in the short space it occupied. While I agree that there are certain things that could've been condensed. I don't know if I'd call the things you mentioned subplots, certainly not the Evil Dragons. I like that each got an episode. And while I think the Luud and Imegga episodes could've been condensed, I don't think they could've been done well in single episodes.

I don't really see how it dragged. During the watch-through I just did with my gf of DB, Z, and GT (excluding the Wedding Dress, Garlic jr., and Afterlife Tournament arcs), the only parts that dragged for us were 5 minutes on Namek, Cell on the islands, everyone vs. Super Buu, and the aforementioned parts of GT. As in, they were legitimately boring, to the extent that it took us out of it, and we had to struggle to continue onward. Not once did we get that sensation during the Super 17 arc. There was consistently something enjoyable going on, it seemed. I can see how everyone just being beat down would drag on, but unlike all of the examples I listed, that wasn't the only real thing going on. While everyone's having a boring fight with Super 17, we have Piccolo, Dende, Goku, Cell, and Freeza giving some enjoyable stuff to watch.

Imegga definitely would have been fine as a single episode. All they needed to do was meet Giru, learn that Don Kia is a dick, beat Ledgic, and get their ship back. Trying to be sneaky was really unnecessary. With Luud, I guess 2 episodes would be best (forgot that it was a 6 episode whatever-you-want-to-call-it, rather than a 3 episode one): one to tangle with he Para Para brothers and Muchi, and one to tangle with Doltaki and Luud.

[Danfun64]

Germany got such a censored and cut version that a lot of episodes are just the Japanese ones.

You say that like its a good thing. The main reason that Japanese episodes were included in the German box was because they weren't dubbed period. The episodes that were dubbed were left as is on the DVD set, cuts and all.

Good grief. At least when AB Groupe dubbed DB and DBZ (I heard the French GT dub was almost uncut and had a very different production than its predecessors. Didn't it premere as direct-to-vhs because DB wasn't allowed to air on TV at the time or something? Same thing (to a far lesser extent) for Boo arc.) it aired every episode, and when Funi/Ocean/Saban edited out almost entire episodes of content, most of what was removed didn't really affect the plot. I find it amusing that as the French dub starts to loosen up its edits, the German dub goes the opposite direction .

[ABED]

Super 17 may have been short but it still dragged. The fight was just not interesting enough even in the short space it occupied. While I agree that there are certain things that could've been condensed. I don't know if I'd call the things you mentioned subplots, certainly not the Evil Dragons. I like that each got an episode. And while I think the Luud and Imegga episodes could've been condensed, I don't think they could've been done well in single episodes.

I don't really see how it dragged. During the watch-through I just did with my gf of DB, Z, and GT (excluding the Wedding Dress, Garlic jr., and Afterlife Tournament arcs), the only parts that dragged for us were 5 minutes on Namek, Cell on the islands, everyone vs. Super Buu, and the aforementioned parts of GT. As in, they were legitimately boring, to the extent that it took us out of it, and we had to struggle to continue onward. Not once did we get that sensation during the Super 17 arc. There was consistently something enjoyable going on, it seemed. I can see how everyone just being beat down would drag on, but unlike all of the examples I listed, that wasn't the only real thing going on. While everyone's having a boring fight with Super 17, we have Piccolo, Dende, Goku, Cell, and Freeza giving some enjoyable stuff to watch.

Imegga definitely would have been fine as a single episode. All they needed to do was meet Giru, learn that Don Kia is a dick, beat Ledgic, and get their ship back. Trying to be sneaky was really unnecessary. With Luud, I guess 2 episodes would be best (forgot that it was a 6 episode whatever-you-want-to-call-it, rather than a 3 episode one): one to tangle with he Para Para brothers and Muchi, and one to tangle with Doltaki and Luud.

And all Goku needs to do is get into Hell, get out, and stop 17, you don't need 6 episodes to do that. I do however think you need at least 2 episodes to tell the Imegga story and give it any sort of weight. 20 minutes just isn't enough time to properly develop it, you would brush past all of those big plot points. The Super 17 arc might have had enjoyable B and C stories, but you can find enjoyable stuff in nearly every episode, even fake Namek.

The island episodes in Kai move pretty well.

[Lord Beerus]

In what way ?

The character designs, the writing, the main plots & the overall production.

GT did the same thing but unlike Super it did a better job at hiding it cause more effort went into making a story rather then a merchandise commercial.

The Buu arc lead into the Black star search arc which lead into the Baby arc. the Super 17 arc lead into the shadow dragons arc.

Its stories were more connected with each other and the manga then Super's are and the characters were developed more then they're being in Super.

Super's arcs on the other hand aren't telling one connected story, each one is a standalone that has very little to do with what came before it and the decisions they've made are focused on selling toys rather then telling a story and developing characters.

Could that change ? yes, I think the Black arc has the potential to lead into another arc by ending with the heroes getting stuck in another timeline or universe which will kick off a new arc.

The Majin Boo arc in no way lead into the Black Star Dragon Ball arc. The Black Star Dragon Balls themselves came absolutely out of nowhere, and the Pilaf Gang, the Pilaf Gang, out of everyone in the cast, were able to find them first. And it doesn't help that there is never an explanation of where the Black Star Dragon Balls came from in the first place. So in reality, GT's plot got started on a huge contrivance. Hell, Dragon Ball as a whole doesn't really have a cohesive arc-to-arc narrative structure. Most are the arcs pretty unconnected to each other and most of then new villains introduced come out of nowhere, with zero foreshadowing and no substantial connection to the previous arc. The Red Ribbon Army, King Piccolo, the Saiyans, Freeza, Cell, Majin Boo etc. You know what, for all the crap I give GT, I'll give it one thing, most of the arcs weave into each other quite well. With the exception of the Super 17 arc which was literally feels like it was tacked on at the last second keep GT on the air. There was absolutely zero connection between the Baby arc and Super 17 arc. Hell, with the way the show went after Baby bit the dust, (Piccolo deciding the stay dead, Earth being restored back to normal, a lighthearted WMAT, Mr Satan retiring from fighting, teasing another Goku/Vegeta battle) you would have thought that GT was ending.

[ABED]

There is an explanation of where the Black star DB's came from, it's just a nonsensical one - they were born when Kami and Piccolo split.

Dragon Ball as a whole doesn't really have a cohesive arc-to-arc narrative structure. Most are the arcs pretty unconnected to each other and most of then new villains introduced come out of nowhere, with zero foreshadowing and no substantial connection to the previous arc. The Red Ribbon Army, King Piccolo, the Saiyans, Freeza, Cell, Majin Boo etc

I don't agree fully as the antagonists may not have lead directly into each other, but the stories usually did. And the Saiyan arc flowed directly into the Freeza arc.

[ekrolo2]

There is an explanation of where the Black star DB's came from, it's just a nonsensical one - they were born when Kami and Piccolo split

Weren't they made by the Nameless Namekian before Kami and Piccolo split?

[Lord Beerus]

I don't agree fully as the antagonists may not have lead directly into each other, but the stories usually did. And the Saiyan arc flowed directly into the Freeza arc.

Eh, not really. I will admit that there certainly was narrative cohesion from the King Piccolo arc to the Freeza arc, but after and prior to the arcs really felt self contained.

[ABED]

I don't agree fully as the antagonists may not have lead directly into each other, but the stories usually did. And the Saiyan arc flowed directly into the Freeza arc.

Eh, not really. I will admit that there certainly was narrative cohesion from the King Piccolo arc to the Freeza arc, but after and prior to the arcs really felt self contained.

Goku goes to train with Muten Roshi after finishing hunting for the DB's which was what he said he would do. Then after training and competing in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, he went out to look for the 4 star ball in part because Roshi told him to go out into the world and continue his training. From there he encounted the RRA who were obstacles in obtaining his goal. During that time, he met Upa and Bora. Bora was killed which was the impetus for him finding the remaining DBs which he needed Baba for. After that story was resolved, Roshi once again told him to go out into the world and train for the next tournament, which he did. Piccolo might have come "out of nowhere" but 1 - Pilaf released him, and 2 - the reason Goku fought him was because Piccolo killed Kuririn because he was a martial artist. Then Goku fought Piccolo's son. There's a much cleaner narrative break as there's a 5 year period of peace which is then spoiled by Raditz and after Goku's friends are killed, the team goes to Namek to resurrect them, thus bringing them into conflict with Freeza who was the former boss of Vegeta. The next villain doesn't have to be teed up or even foreshadowed, even though Freeza was, for there to be narrative cohesion.

[Savage68]

There is an explanation of where the Black star DB's came from, it's just a nonsensical one - they were born when Kami and Piccolo split

Weren't they made by the Nameless Namekian before Kami and Piccolo split?

Yeah, I believe it's Pilaf who mentions that the Black Star DBs are stronger because God made them prior to expelling his evil part (Piccolo).

[Lord Beerus]

I don't agree fully as the antagonists may not have lead directly into each other, but the stories usually did. And the Saiyan arc flowed directly into the Freeza arc.

Eh, not really. I will admit that there certainly was narrative cohesion from the King Piccolo arc to the Freeza arc, but after and prior to the arcs really felt self contained.

Goku goes to train with Muten Roshi after finishing hunting for the DB's which was what he said he would do. Then after training and competing in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, he went out to look for the 4 star ball in part because Roshi told him to go out into the world and continue his training. From there he encounted the RRA who were obstacles in obtaining his goal. During that time, he met Upa and Bora. Bora was killed which was the impetus for him finding the remaining DBs which he needed Baba for. After that story was resolved, Roshi once again told him to go out into the world and train for the next tournament, which he did. Piccolo might have come "out of nowhere" but 1 - Pilaf released him, and 2 - the reason Goku fought him was because Piccolo killed Kuririn because he was a martial artist. Then Goku fought Piccolo's son. There's a much cleaner narrative break as there's a 5 year period of peace which is then spoiled by Raditz and after Goku's friends are killed, the team goes to Namek to resurrect them, thus bringing them into conflict with Freeza who was the former boss of Vegeta. The next villain doesn't have to be teed up or even foreshadowed, even though Freeza was, for there to be narrative cohesion.

How Goku encounters the Red Ribbon Army has never sat well with me because it just feels so contrived. I mean, how does Goku randomly come across an army that is so large yet, for an organisation that supposedly known across the world feel, you feel as though Goku is the only person the army has every truly encountered. You just feel as though the Red Ribbon Army have no presence until they encounter Goku and battles them and then you get a real scope of how large the army truly is.

[ABED]

I mean, how does randomly come across the an army that is so large yet, for an organisation that supposedly known across the world feel, you feel as though Goku is the only person the army has every truly encountered. You just feel as though the Red Ribbon Army have no presence until they encounter Goku and battles them and then you get a real scope of how large the army truly is.

People abuse the word "random". Perhaps Toriyama should've mentioned them before or made them more clandestine, but it's not a contrivance that Goku would encounter an organization who has the same goal. Both want the Dragon Balls, naturally they will cross paths at some point.

[Soppa Saia People]

The OST was awesome, SS4 design was pretty cool, infact most of them were and the T.V special was great.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

In what way ?

The character designs, the writing, the main plots & the overall production.

GT did the same thing but unlike Super it did a better job at hiding it cause more effort went into making a story rather then a merchandise commercial.

The Buu arc lead into the Black star search arc which lead into the Baby arc. the Super 17 arc lead into the shadow dragons arc.

Its stories were more connected with each other and the manga then Super's are and the characters were developed more then they're being in Super.

Super's arcs on the other hand aren't telling one connected story, each one is a standalone that has very little to do with what came before it and the decisions they've made are focused on selling toys rather then telling a story and developing characters.

Could that change ? yes, I think the Black arc has the potential to lead into another arc by ending with the heroes getting stuck in another timeline or universe which will kick off a new arc.

1. Could you elaborate on why GT got character design right than SUPER?
2. How exactly did they hide it better? Having sloppy writing =/= making a merchandise commcercial (which let's be honest, anything that is not Dragon Bal manga falls under cash-grab merchandise commercial).
3. I don't see how Bu Arc leads to the Black DragonBalls themselves or their search, there's no narrative connection other than being "a lazy rehash" of the series first story arc involving a pair of "lazy copy paste" of the series mcguffins, just like how some labels SSGod a lazy rehash of Kaioken.
4. Having self contained stories is by no means bad, it's a total legit way of doing storytelling as much as having all stories connected to one another.

[Kunzait_83]

Eh, not really. I will admit that there certainly was narrative cohesion from the King Piccolo arc to the Freeza arc, but after and prior to the arcs really felt self contained.

That's still a pretty substantial chunk of the series though. That's... roughly almost half of it, or not too far below half.