Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Vados_chan]

SSJ2 Trunks is not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks stop this stupid shit at once. He struggled against Dabura for crying out loud.

Plus you actually think Goku was even trying? That was nothing but a casual spar for him.

[Cabba]

Quoting myself from the DBS ep 49 thread
This is my theory on the matter repeating my earlier post
tl;dr dismissive version
It was interesting fun to watch fan service
Long Version:
Goku was surprised to see Trunks SS2, so most likely he expected Black to be a Majin Tier villain i.e no in the realm of the gods, not able to hold a battle with someone who has achieved god power.

Since goku did not use his stronger base form or Super Saiyan (yellow) form with god powers. My theory on this is that Goku wanted to measure Blacks power the old way i.e SS, SS2, SS3 After trunks told him he might be as strong as SS3 or greater and knowing Trunks power level. Goku came to the conclusion that Black is above SS3 and if he he is on the gods realm of power, trunks would no be able to judge/gauge where Black sits on gods real of power level. i.e Goku needs to fight black to see where he sits

Following what we saw in the Battle of Gods movie and arc, it makes not sense for SS3 to be stronger than Goku SS yellow with gods power. So my conclusion is goku intentionally suppressed his god powers

Tell me what do you think of this theory, I'm open to anyone's take on this

Well Goku could never have Trunks gauge him based on God Ki or SSB because Trunks can't even sense that Ki. So it makes perfect sense Goku didn't use any transformation with his God Ki.

Yeah on top of that, if SS3 was already too much for him, there is no point in using the god powers (Stronger base and SSYellow with god powers) would have produce the same 1 hit defeat
Goku was only able to tell Beerus power was absolutely out of his league after he beat Ss3 with 2 light strokes, but even then he could not grasp the extent of his power

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

SSJ2 Trunks is not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks stop this stupid shit at once. He struggled against Dabura for crying out loud.

Plus you actually think Goku was even trying? That was nothing but a casual spar for him.

Super Saiyan Trunks obliterated Dabra, not Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. I also see no reason why he wouldn't continue to grow stronger after that battle.

[Muffin Man]

SSJ2 Trunks is not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks stop this stupid shit at once. He struggled against Dabura for crying out loud.

Plus you actually think Goku was even trying? That was nothing but a casual spar for him.

Super Saiyan Trunks obliterated Dabra, not Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. I also see no reason why he wouldn't continue to grow stronger after that battle.

But strong enough to the point that SSj3 Gotenks could pummel base form Trunks's face with full powered punches and he wouldn't even budge?

After Beerus established that Goku's pre-god base form, after all those sagas of DBZ and all those years of training, was still behind Frieza?

It makes no sense. None of this stuff is making any sense.

[Hugo Boss]

Based on Future Trunks' storytelling, Black is, at the very least, stronger than Majin Boo, so in order to gauge his strength via sparring Goku and Trunks should start at a level which is already above Boo's and they choose SS2. Then, Future Trunks proceeds by saying their level wasn't enough and Goku powers-up to SS3. Even after his most powerful attack was easily blocked, Future Trunks believes Black is still stronger than Goku. All of this seems to follow the logic that Black's strength is being little by little revealed. If Future Trunks' strength wasn't impressive from the beginning, there should be no point in resorting to stronger transformations, right? I think he is probably more close to Goku and Vegeta now than Cabba was in the tournament.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

But strong enough to the point that SSj3 Gotenks could pummel base form Trunks's face with full powered punches and he wouldn't even budge?

Probably. It might not make sense, but a lot of stuff is left open to interpretation.

After Beerus established that Goku's pre-god base form, after all those sagas of DBZ and all those years of training, was still behind Frieza?

Well, that was Goku. Gohan later was said to be the most dangerous on the Earth team and this is after he lost his Ultimate form. Base Gohan was also sparring with Piccolo a bit after the ROF saga.

So yeah, a lot of things in Super make no sense.

[Neon Z]

Well, that was Goku. Gohan later was said to be the most dangerous on the Earth team and this is after he lost his Ultimate form. Base Gohan was also sparring with Piccolo a bit after the ROF saga.

"Base" Gohan was looking like ultimate Gohan when he appeared in the Pan episode (with the fully outlined eyes), and, in RoF, he didn't attempt to turn into Ultimate and failed. He noticed that his power had dropped and he couldn't raise it right in the middle of fighting. Only after that he went SSJ. The way Super has handled him, it makes me think they consider "Ultimate" to be just his new base after it was activated for the first time, rather than a transformation. We'll see what they'll do with him next time he pops up, I guess.

[singsing]

Sooo, haven't really had time to keep up with what's happening, did we ever reach a consensus on where Goku and Vegeta stand in base form?

[RandomGuy96]

Quick question: in what interview does Toriyama state that he edits, supervises, and occasionally even redraws parts of the manga?

[RandomGuy96]

SSJ2 Trunks is not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks stop this stupid shit at once. He struggled against Dabura for crying out loud.

Plus you actually think Goku was even trying? That was nothing but a casual spar for him.

Super Saiyan Trunks obliterated Dabra, not Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.

He didn't. We saw them fight, and Dabra could still hurt Trunks by punching him. Trunks even says it was a very hard battle, which would point to their actual battle being much longer than what we saw.

[Saturnine]

Well, that was Goku. Gohan later was said to be the most dangerous on the Earth team and this is after he lost his Ultimate form. Base Gohan was also sparring with Piccolo a bit after the ROF saga.

"Base" Gohan was looking like ultimate Gohan when he appeared in the Pan episode (with the fully outlined eyes), and, in RoF, he didn't attempt to turn into Ultimate and failed. He noticed that his power had dropped and he couldn't raise it right in the middle of fighting. Only after that he went SSJ. The way Super has handled him, it makes me think they consider "Ultimate" to be just his new base after it was activated for the first time, rather than a transformation. We'll see what they'll do with him next time he pops up, I guess.

Which is closer to the truth. Ultimate being a transformation is a theatrical movie thing.

[Hero]

See this is why I had no choice but to adopt the two base theory for Goku and Vegeta. Because otherwise you get a chain where it is:

SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Goku = SSJ2 Future Trunks >> Base Goku = base Trunks = Base Vegeta >> SSJ3 Gotenks

Yeah yeah, Goku wasn't probably using his full power on Trunks, but Trunks is implied to be in the same league as a SSJ2 with SSJ2 Goku, otherwise the show would show a stomp.

This rubs me the wrong way, because:

1. This would make Base Trunks at the same league as the Super Buus, and he did without any sparring partner (maybe a gravity chamber if Future Bulma remembers to build one) and he did this alone, while Goku needed the SSJG ritual to get to that level and Vegeta needed to swallow his pride and train with Whis.

I know the half-Saiyans improve faster, but not like this.

A two-base theory makes everything fit more with what makes sense.

So Future Trunks = Goku and Vegeta's non-God-ki bases. So his SSJ2 is the level of a normal SSJ2. Can be below or above Majin Vegeta, doesn't really matter. SSJ3 Goku is a normal SSJ3.

Goku and Vegeta, though, can upgrade their bases to God level to stomp SSJ3 Gotenks, and then go SSJB to get even stronger.

Watch this theory implode next episode, though, when Black beats SSJ2 Goku and Goku considers that a threat.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

SSJ2 Trunks is not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks stop this stupid shit at once. He struggled against Dabura for crying out loud.

Plus you actually think Goku was even trying? That was nothing but a casual spar for him.

Super Saiyan Trunks obliterated Dabra, not Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.

He didn't. We saw them fight, and Dabra could still hurt Trunks by punching him. Trunks even says it was a very hard battle, which would point to their actual battle being much longer than what we saw.

I said Super Saiyan Trunks obliterated Dabra as in he completely destroyed him. I didn't say it was an easy fight.

[supercat]

Super Saiyan Trunks obliterated Dabra, not Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. I also see no reason why he wouldn't continue to grow stronger after that battle.

Exactly. Trunks doesn't come off as the type to sit around and do nothing; he probably continued his training after taking into consideration that there may be other threats out there.

As for the two base nonsense, it hasn't once been proven to be a thing, so I have no reason to subscribe to it. This is Dragon Ball; characters grow stronger at varying rates as the plot necessitates. I don't recall any rules stating that character a has to be stronger than character b, or character c could only obtain x amount of power in x amount of time. I mean, if there really was truth behind such rigid concepts, can you imagine how uneventful the entire series would be?

Feeling a bit lazy, so I'll just repost a segment from an earlier post pertaining to this discussion.

The whole "if Goku and Vegeta weren't able to do it, then so-and-so has no chance whatsoever" argument is easily refutable when you look at the show's track record of strength progression.

Training with King Kai yielded far better results for Piccolo, and even nobodies like Tien and Yamcha, despite the group undergoing the same type of training for a much shorter duration. Piccolo went from 3,000 - 4,000 to a caliber that Nail deemed worthy in a week's worth of time, whereas Goku barely reached 8,000 (without Kaioken) in little less than a year.

Relatively speaking, Piccolo saw a far greater leap in power than Goku did during their three years of training together; the former presumably went from Third Form Frieza tier to some unspecified level that was able to effortlessly trump Gero (someone who tired SSJ Vegeta refrained from fighting).

Bottom line is, if the story requires a particular character to reach a certain level, it will happen with little to no explanation. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with Trunks being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or any of the top contenders from the Buu arc.

[Chiki]

SSJ2 Trunks is not stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks stop this stupid shit at once. He struggled against Dabura for crying out loud.

Plus you actually think Goku was even trying? That was nothing but a casual spar for him.

Super Saiyan Trunks obliterated Dabra, not Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. I also see no reason why he wouldn't continue to grow stronger after that battle.

Come on, you have to see how idiotic it is to claim that SSJ2 Trunks > SS3 Gotenks. IMO it proves that some people on this forum have an irrational hatred of the two base theory for whatever reason and want to throw all reason out the window lol.

Because the two base theory is "badly written." Trunks becoming above SS3 level in Base by training alone is MUCH WORSE writing.

Trunks training alone would be just as effective as Vegeta training alone. He's not going to go up to above SS3 Gotenks level by training alone.

[Hugo Boss]

Not really. Future Trunks and Gohan have greater potential than Goku and Vegeta, due to being Half-blood Saiyans or because the story demand it. If Beerus himself found Future Trunks impressive, it seems he is not a pushover like Gotenks.

As for the two base theory, I don't see any reason to defend it with such passion. There are people here who buy it, but the ones who disagree are in their total right to do so.

[Chiki]

Not really. Future Trunks and Gohan have greater potential than Goku and Vegeta, due to being Half-blood Saiyans or because the story demand it. If Beerus himself found Future Trunks impressive, it seems he is not a pushover like Gotenks.

As for the two base theory, I don't see any reason to defend it with such passion. There are people here who buy it, but the ones who disagree are in their total right to do so.

We've already seen him train alone. Future Trunks spent a year in the RoSaT alone during the Cell Games arc and he didn't get much stronger at all.

[LowRyder2005]

As for Olibu, I'm not sure on how you still haven't caught my drift: the entire Copy Vegeta mini-arc and therefore's Vegeta's AND Copy Vegeta's power standing may have been a TOEI product. Let's change the example, then. How about TOEI's framework of Super Saiyan Goku >= Pikkon > Super Perfect Cell in the Otherworld Tournament Arc?
I'm saying that the "Vegeta > SS3 Gotenks" axiom may have been something TOEI independently ingrained into Toriyama's framework. You can't say that SS3 Gotenks being inferior to the Base Saiyans was already established in the ROF Arc.

This won't make him less canonical for the anime, sure, but by now it could certainly be interpreted by a viewer a case of random PIS just like Super Saiyan Goku being stronger than Super Perfect Cell or Yamcha beating Olibu in two hits when the latter is stronger than Super Perfect Cell as well.

Silly LowRyder2005, Paikuhan had a fiery aura against Cell, which means he was using a super attack akin to Kaio-ken. It even featured as a technique of his in some random game, thus it's official!
Also Cell did not have his aura up, so he was obviously not at full power, I thought you'd already know this?

Thus: Olibu =< Weighted Paikuhan < Filler Yamcha < Base Goku < Super Saiyan Goku < Paikuhan < Cell < Random Kaio-ken like technique Paikuhan used < Super Perfect Cell.

And Goku obviously just has one base, it does not matter that he is clearly shown powering up with a certain aura at certain points in the series, while at other points that aura is completely omitted *coughcoughCHAMPAARCcoughcough* It clearly does not mean anything, because Toei are clearly just inconsistent or what have you, even if that one random game differentiates it from normal base. IT MEANS NOTHING!

"But you're contradicting your own logic from the Paikuhan ex-" "SHADDUPP NANANANANANA CAN'THEAR YOU!" *promptly sticks head in sand*

When debates end up like that you know you can only lose.

Ally of good, kudos to you!
[Wait... what?]

By the way, while I may be alone in this thread, I do tend to believe that the power hierarchy perception would have already shifted towards the lower-ish end of the spectrum - after the last two episodes and the latest manga chapters - if it wasn't for the Vegeta vs. Gotenks fight. All they had to do was to give Copy-Vegeta another horrendous golden hairdo (because, really, the cyan hairdo on purple already made my eyes bleed) while he was facing Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, and the most integralist fans' seppukus would stop.

Still, according to TOEI, Vegeta could already tangle with Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Piccolo with reportedly "the same strenght of the original" at the same time back in the Buu Saga, so they may even be coherently expanding their stor... *another western Dragon Ball sets himself on fire somewhere on the planet*

[LowRyder2005]

Quick question: in what interview does Toriyama state that he edits, supervises, and occasionally even redraws parts of the manga?

I have been looking for them for a long time myself. I do believe they were posted somewhere in the "Official Announcements" thread; you may be better off asking some of the more dedicated users in that thread.

[HeroR]

Not really. Future Trunks and Gohan have greater potential than Goku and Vegeta, due to being Half-blood Saiyans or because the story demand it. If Beerus himself found Future Trunks impressive, it seems he is not a pushover like Gotenks.

As for the two base theory, I don't see any reason to defend it with such passion. There are people here who buy it, but the ones who disagree are in their total right to do so.

Well, Beerus never fought Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. He only fought Super Saiyan Gotenks in the movie and base form Goten in Super.