Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cabba]

So why would Goku even use them if they don't have any power boost? Like if SSJ1 gives an x50 boost and SSB only x10 why even use SSB at all? It seems like a really worthless transformation power wise especially if Goku has the God power in his base by default. It's just as irrelevant as the Oozaru multiplier.

He doesnt use them anymore thats the point actually, i even saw this on the manga today vs hit
Trunks was the one to go SS2, so perhaps Goku felt that Trunks was in the SS2 majin tier realm of power and decided to test his limits the old more inefficient way

So SS2 is weaker than.. normal SS Goku now? That is impossible. Godhood doesn't magically turn off for SS2.
Just accept the two base theory and you have a clean solution.

Why not though? is not as if its unheard of, Gohan post elders ritual was stronger in base than SS
Goodhood doesnt turn off for SS2, SS2 is not compatible with godhood, this falls in place nicely with that comment Akira made about SS2 and above being irrelevant from now own, that goku realized increasing his base power while boosting as a SS would yield greater results. This was a comment before the Frieza movie so SSB was not a concept implying base and SS are above the previous used forms at the time the comment took place

That would explain why Goku did not turn SS3 against beerus on the movie after SSG was gone, or why in the manga Goku does not fight Hit as SS3

Why would the godhood boost work for SS and then stop working for SS2? That makes no sense.

What about akiras word about Base and SS being the way to go from now on?
Maybe the fact that SS2/3 are the boost of a boost have something to do with it, or the way they burn energy is incompatible with the new way to handle ki goku learned while fighting beerus and whis taught vegeta

I would not get mad if the two base theory was a thing, i just intend to provide another perspective

[Bullza]

A single base would mean that SSB would have to have a multiplier of like x500 on base to even be worth it or relevant vs SSJ3s x400 multiplier.

Well things have been changed and retconned, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 wasn't going to be used but it has, Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken still isnt stronger than Beerus.

Are the multipliers still the same as they were? Super Saiyan wasn't 50x as strong as Base in the Battle of Gods movie or arc but you'd think it should be the same going by Vegeta's fight with Cabba.

All we really know is that it goes like this

SSJB > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ1 > Base

The gaps between them are not really clear or seemingly that consistent as they just showed again when SSJ2 Goku was equal with someone stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

It's implied that SSJB would make easy work of Black so it's definitely stronger but you can't put any numbers on it.

[TheMikado]

A single base would mean that SSB would have to have a multiplier of like x500 on base to even be worth it or relevant vs SSJ3s x400 multiplier.

Well things have been changed and retconned, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 wasn't going to be used but it has, Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken still isnt stronger than Beerus.

Are the multipliers still the same as they were? Super Saiyan wasn't 50x as strong as Base in the Battle of Gods movie or arc but you'd think it should be the same going by Vegeta's fight with Cabba.

All we really know is that it goes like this

SSJB > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ1 > Base

The gaps between them are not really clear or seemingly that consistent as they just showed again when SSJ2 Goku was equal with someone stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

It's implied that SSJB would make easy work of Black so it's definitely stronger but you can't put any numbers on it.

What though? What makes you say SSJ wasn't an x50 multiplier in BoG?

[Bullza]

What though? What makes you say SSJ wasn't an x50 multiplier in BoG?

The movie or the anime? It was pretty apparent it wasn't in the movie so you must mean the anime.

There was that scene where Super Saiyan Goku was struggling to hold back Beerus' attack and then he suddenly reverts back to Base form where he then punches it and destroys it. If Base form was merely 1/50th of Super Saiyan then that never should have happened.

So there shouldn't really be much difference between the two just like it wasn't in the movie either.

[TheMikado]

What though? What makes you say SSJ wasn't an x50 multiplier in BoG?

The movie or the anime? It was pretty apparent it wasn't in the movie so you must mean the anime.

There was that scene where Super Saiyan Goku was struggling to hold back Beerus' attack and then he suddenly reverts back to Base form where he then punches it and destroys it. If Base form was merely 1/50th of Super Saiyan then that never should have happened.

So there shouldn't really be much difference between the two just like it wasn't in the movie either.

I don't agree with that, just watched the clip you're taking about and he was SSJ while struggling but in base he basically purposely exploded it like someone jumping on a grenade. That's a big leap to assume his base and SSJ are similar in power. Everything I've seen of that was Goku losing SSG power, doing just ok but on defense in base and then going SSJ and a clear huge power boost in the movie. This is a sequence of all three forms in the movie. I'm not basing it off this but even in the movie base was clearly not at the level of SSJ expecially when he powers up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TlZ6mmjnvFw

Just watched the above clip 3 times in succession. Forget what I said SSJ Goku after SSG is obviously on a whole other God level compared to his base. I'm not sure how you can even dispute this. Also it's just plan awesome.

[Bullza]

But the same blast that had enough force behind it to push Super Saiyan Goku back was the same one that blew up in Base Goku's face and while it hurt him it didn't kill him or knock him out.

If Super Saiyan is about 60% of Beerus then Base would be 1.2%. That would likely make him weaker than an angry SSJ2 Vegeta and it didn't seem that way.

I do think Super Saiyan is stronger but not by that extent. If Base was 1/50th of that then he shouldn't be keeping up with Beerus at all, he should not be hurting Beerus at all and Goku should have known he'd fall off drastically but he didn't even know that he'd fell out of God power the whole time.

He went from SSJG to Base to SSJ all without noticing his power had dropped.

[TheMikado]

But the same blast that had enough force behind it to push Super Saiyan Goku back was the same one that blew up in Base Goku's face and while it hurt him it didn't kill him or knock him out.

If Super Saiyan is about 60% of Beerus then Base would be 1.2%. That would likely make him weaker than an angry SSJ2 Vegeta and it didn't seem that way.

I do think Super Saiyan is stronger but not by that extent. If Base was 1/50th of that then he shouldn't be keeping up with Beerus at all, he should not be hurting Beerus at all and Goku should have known he'd fall off drastically but he didn't even know that he'd fell out of God power the whole time.

He went from SSJG to Base to SSJ all without noticing his power had dropped.

Are you talking about the movie or the anime? Because he was was base for a second and only to detonate the blast. If you want to mix the movies in then the %s would be fair game to use as well.

If you want to take it to them movie (I don't). We've have many many many examples of characters way lower in power surviving, you could even argue that Beerus went easy on base Goku after he lost SSG evident by not even having his aura. Anyway there is NOTHING in Super to suggest base Goku and SSJ Goku are similar in power. That's literally the weirdest thing I've ever heard anyone say about the Dragonball series ever. I would even like to take a poll to see how many people on this forum agree with that statement. As a matter of fact let's ask the forum now.

Who here believes that Goku's base and his SSJ form in Super that "there isn't much difference between the two forms"?

[Bullza]

I was kinda talking about both I suppose. Like I said it's not very clear, Super Saiyan is definitely stronger, Whis said as much back on Beerus' planet and the Champa arc showed it too.

But because there's not a huge amount in it in the movie then I suppose people naturally assumed the same in the anime too.

There's other things too, if Base Goku was 1.2% as strong as Beerus then why did he survive an unrestrained smack from Beerus? Why did he survive an unrestrained energy blast from Beerus? He wasn't even knocked out.

Why was he putting up as good a fight against Beerus in one of the later episodes? I know he was handicapped but he wasn't that handicapped.

[HeroR]

I was kinda talking about both I suppose. Like I said it's not very clear, Super Saiyan is definitely stronger, Whis said as much back on Beerus' planet and the Champa arc showed it too.

But because there's not a huge amount in it in the movie then I suppose people naturally assumed the same in the anime too.

There's other things too, if Base Goku was 1.2% as strong as Beerus then why did he survive an unrestrained smack from Beerus? Why did he survive an unrestrained energy blast from Beerus? He wasn't even knocked out.

Why was he putting up as good a fight against Beerus in one of the later episodes? I know he was handicapped but he wasn't that handicapped.

You have to keep in mind that this is Goku who have over four years worth of training since he first fought Beerus. So his overall power would be greater than it was then when he faced Beerus the first time.

[worrior_v1]

^ in that context it's even weirder because he was excited about Gokus power but indifferent to Beerus/ Whis despite knowing about them. That's so weird for him to get pumped as if Goku is super strong. Can Black detect God Ki? Also Black can't be using God Ki if Trunks can detect it. Unless Trunks mysteriously learned to do that on his own in addition to training himself to God levels...

Maybe he is pumped up because if Goku is as powerful as he appears (Even though he is multitudes higher in power), Black can fuse with Goku and multiple that a thousand-fold and be unstoppable.

We still dont know anything significant about black other than the time ring- Let us just wait until Episode 53.

[apex_pretador]

You know as I'm thinking about this, how does the no two base crowd rectify the fact that all SSJ forms are still used?

So Goku/Vegeta have only one very strong base.
Most seem to imply the multiplier for SSB isn't very high.

If they have SSJ -SSJ 3 available, why even go SSB?

A single base would mean that SSB would have to have a multiplier of like x500 on base to even be worth it or relevant vs SSJ3s x400 multiplier.

Basically what's the multiplier for SSB vs the other forms?

SSB is a level beyond multipliers.

Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< SSB

[Cabba]

A single base would mean that SSB would have to have a multiplier of like x500 on base to even be worth it or relevant vs SSJ3s x400 multiplier.

Well things have been changed and retconned, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 wasn't going to be used but it has, Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken still isnt stronger than Beerus.
All we really know is that it goes like this
SSJB > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ1 > Base

I think it goes like
SSB>>SSG>SS>Base>>>>>>>>>>SS3>SS2
The reason why SS2 and SS3 are so behind the curve is they are not complained with the different way to handle ki which Goku absorbed from SSG in BoGs and Vegeta was taught by Beerus

SSB is a level beyond multipliers.
Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< SSB

Feel the same way, I hate multipliers and felt they should not be used anymore post namek saga and its why the series dropped the bean/ki counters
Like Vegeta once said you cant calculate a Saiyans power, a multiplier is meaningless when so many other factors could be at play making a character stronger
If i was given a cent every time a supporting character said wow that power belongs to another dimension or cannot compute such a tremendous amount of power i would have at least 50 cents, this implies they cant quantify it and should not be quantified, something as big a SS2 let alone SSB should not be able to be counted it should be unquantifiable, kinda like there are different types of infinities which are bigger than other infinities

[HeroR]

A single base would mean that SSB would have to have a multiplier of like x500 on base to even be worth it or relevant vs SSJ3s x400 multiplier.

Well things have been changed and retconned, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 wasn't going to be used but it has, Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken still isnt stronger than Beerus.
All we really know is that it goes like this
SSJB > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ1 > Base

I think it goes like
SSB>>SSG>SS>Base>>>>>>>>>>SS3>SS2
The reason why SS2 and SS3 are so behind the curve is they are not complained with the different way to handle ki which Goku absorbed from SSG in BoGs and Vegeta was taught by Beerus

SSB is a level beyond multipliers.
Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< SSB

Feel the same way, I hate multipliers and felt they should not be used anymore post namek saga and its why the series dropped the bean/ki counters
Like Vegeta once said you cant calculate a Saiyans power, a multiplier is meaningless when so many other factors could be at play making a character stronger
If i was given a cent every time a supporting character said wow that power belongs to another dimension or cannot compute such a tremendous amount of power i would have at least 50 cents, this implies they cant quantify it and should not be quantified, something as big a SS2 let alone SSB should not be able to be counted it should be unquantifiable, kinda like there are different types of infinities which are bigger than other infinities

I don't think Super 2 and 3 are behind the base since those forms are just multipliers, not levels. The stronger the base, the stronger the Super Saiyan forms. Which is why Super Saiyan Goku during the Cell Saga is much stronger than Super Saiyan Goku during Namek. He powered up his base, in turn it make his Super Saiyan form stronger.

Once Goku took godhood into his being, his base became much stronger, so the order is still:

Base < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3

We just don't know how big the increase is between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. It could be relatively small like the different between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, but since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is more energy efficient that Super Saiyan 3 (since it is just Super Saiyan with god energy), it's more practical to use base, Super Saiyan, and then Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Either way, Super Saiyan God doesn't come into play since according to Beerus, Goku new base is Super Saiyan God.

[Bullza]

It makes no sense for Base to be stronger than Super Saiyan forms, that's just confusing for the sake of being confusing.

Goku sparred with Trunks so that he could be compared to Black. Being that Trunks wouldn't be able to sense him as a Super Saiyan Blue then Super Saiyan 3 is the strongest that he can be that Trunks can sense.

Goku could not have got any stronger at that point unless he turned Super Saiyan Blue. There'd have been no point in him suppressing himself because that would defeat the entire purpose of trying to find out how strong Black was.

[HeroR]

It makes no sense for Base to be stronger than Super Saiyan forms, that's just confusing for the sake of being confusing.

Goku sparred with Trunks so that he could be compared to Black. Being that Trunks wouldn't be able to sense him as a Super Saiyan Blue then Super Saiyan 3 is the strongest that he can be that Trunks can sense.

Goku could not have got any stronger at that point unless he turned Super Saiyan Blue. There'd have been no point in him suppressing himself because that would defeat the entire purpose of trying to find out how strong Black was.

Which is what I have been saying for a week. If Goku had a base that was stronger than Super Saiyan 3, he would used that instead of transforming. And, like I posted and messed up in the previous post, all Super Saiyan forms are just multipliers. So it's literally impossible for a Super Saiyan form to be weaker than the base form of the person who is transforming.

[TheMikado]

^ right but you get the same problem without having a SSB multiplier. It it's only a x10 base why use it instead of the SSJ forms? The only way I could see this functioning with one base is if the God Ki multiplier stacked on top of the SSJ multiplier x50 X x10 =x500 which is much more than his current SSJ3 form. The problem becomes why couldn't they use their God forms in other forms as well such as base or SSJ3? That's what doesn't make any sense. In the anime your implying that they are only able to use God Ki in one form only yet somehow Goku can also mix it with KK but not apply it to his base or SSJ2/SSJ3??

Anyway to illustrate how ridiculous power levels have grown since the Buu arc I will use a X500 base for SSB which most people will claim is on the low side..

Base Goku Buu arc = 1
SSJ3 Goku Buu Arc =x400
Super Goku base = X500
SSJ3 Goku Super = x500x400 = x200,000
SSB Goku = X500x500 = x250,000
SSBxKkx10 = X2,500,000

So Gokus ultimate form is literally 2,500,000 times stronger than his base was in BoG
An increase of 250,000,000%!!!!!!!!!

You can say it's always been like this but it certainly hasn't

DBZ % increases
Beginning of Z to SSJ going from a power level of 300 to 15,000,000 was only a x 50,000 increase
Even if we look at SSJ3 and assume a power level of 100,000,000 it's still an increase of x333,333.
I mean the the series has always been crazy with super inflated power levels but never like this.

[TheMikado]

I was kinda talking about both I suppose. Like I said it's not very clear, Super Saiyan is definitely stronger, Whis said as much back on Beerus' planet and the Champa arc showed it too.

But because there's not a huge amount in it in the movie then I suppose people naturally assumed the same in the anime too.

There's other things too, if Base Goku was 1.2% as strong as Beerus then why did he survive an unrestrained smack from Beerus? Why did he survive an unrestrained energy blast from Beerus? He wasn't even knocked out.

Why was he putting up as good a fight against Beerus in one of the later episodes? I know he was handicapped but he wasn't that handicapped.

If you're asking questions on how Base Goku survived Beerus you could also ask how Bulma survived a smack from Beerus that sent he flying across the room when Beerus finger flicked SSJ3 Goku into a crater...
After the blast Goku did go unconscious and fell to earth he was not in good shape afterwards. Like I said he detonated the blast. If you're making you assumption that the SSJ form and base are not far off based on the 2 seconds he actually reverted to base, got desperate and detonated the blast on himself to save the eart that's a really really really huge leap.

This is the only clip I could find and its long but stil shows that scene you're talking about.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4e6rT6qhed4

[LowRyder2005]

Add GT Base Goku surviving blasts from Omega Shenron to the TOEI mix.

[HeroR]

^ right but you get the same problem without having a SSB multiplier. It it's only a x10 base why use it instead of the SSJ forms? The only way I could see this functioning with one base is if the God Ki multiplier stacked on top of the SSJ multiplier x50 X x10 =x500 which is much more than his current SSJ3 form. The problem becomes why couldn't they use their God forms in other forms as well such as base or SSJ3? That's what doesn't make any sense. In the anime your implying that they are only able to use God Ki in one form only yet somehow Goku can also mix it with KK but not apply it to his base or SSJ2/SSJ3??

Anyway to illustrate how ridiculous power levels have grown since the Buu arc I will use a X500 base for SSB which most people will claim is on the low side..

Base Goku Buu arc = 1
SSJ3 Goku Buu Arc =x400
Super Goku base = X500
SSJ3 Goku Super = x500x400 = x200,000
SSB Goku = X500x500 = x250,000
SSBxKkx10 = X2,500,000

So Gokus ultimate form is literally 2,500,000 times stronger than his base was in BoG
An increase of 250,000,000%!!!!!!!!!

You can say it's always been like this but it certainly hasn't

DBZ % increases
Beginning of Z to SSJ going from a power level of 300 to 15,000,000 was only a x 50,000 increase
Even if we look at SSJ3 and assume a power level of 100,000,000 it's still an increase of x333,333.
I mean the the series has always been crazy with super inflated power levels but never like this.

I am not implying, the anime outright says that the only forms with god ki is Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. No other forms have god ki because they can be felt by normal people. When Goku lost his godform, everyone felt his power despite Goku's strength not really dropping and Beerus confirmed that Goku kept the power even without being a god. In Resurrection 'F', all of Goku's friends note that they couldn't feel Goku's ki anymore when he became a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and were confused since they thought he was a Super Saiyan God, but the color was wrong.

If you're asking why can't Goku merged Super Saiyan 3 with god ki and make Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 3 or something, Toriyama answered that in his interview. Super Saiyan 3 is an energy drain and in the end, just an extension of regular Super Saiyan anyway. With training, Goku can make his normal Super Saiyan form more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 and it's more energy efficient. It's the same reason why Goku never used Ultra Super Saiyan outside of showing it off to Gohan.

As for the multiplier, Super Saiyan was already out there with it to begin with a 50X multiplier when before, the highest multiplier was Kaio-Ken X20 and that was a short energy burst that couldn't be maintained for long. For transformations, the Great Ape was a 10X and no other transformation comes close to that except Super Saiyan. We also don't know what the multiplier of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is. It could be double of Super Saiyan 3, it could be ten times Super Saiyan 3, we have no clue. However, given that Super Saiyan God took Goku from being two shot by Beerus to given Beerus a decent battle and surpassing the power Goku had as Vegetto, Super Saiyan God already had a huge multiplier.

[TheMikado]

Again none of this makes sense in the context of what we were told about Ki leaking, God Ki, SSB being more efficient, etc. like the anime proposes a whole lot of points about the forms and which is better where and what Ki is in use and when it can be sense. The point is most of it contradicts itself when you start randomly combining things like SSB xKK or having he base now be go level.

Let's say SSJ1 is now equal to his God form, what would be the advantage of going SSJ3 vs SSB? We don't even know if SSB is that much more powerful than SSJ3 at this point? Honestly for all we know SSJ3 could be more powerful for all we know but less efficient. The problem is none of this is explained or shown.