The new SSJ forms in context with the old ones (DBS Ep. 49)

[miguelnuva1]

At this point in the story, Goku and Vegeta can only be beaten by two people in their own universe. They have to look to other universes to EVEN have any competition.

No one is even close to a match for them now, so the game plan is to go really easy on everyone and don't try at all -- you'll get a good fight this way. All they have ever wanted to do is fight and train. The 'Why' is a very easy question to answer.

Everyone here in this thread is thinking all too logically and not understanding the emotion behind Goku and Vegeta's choices. They are not logical fighters. They're self-centered and choose to fight anyone and everyone who they can get their hands on. They don't plan out fights ... they don't calculate the boost one form can give minus the strain it causes -- we here at Kanzenshuu do that. They don't -- they just follow their emotions and fight. My best friend is a professional MMA fighter and this is how he thinks too.

EDIT: I hope this didn't come across as snarky to anyone. I am trying to present a view beyond the semantics of God Ki and the Two-Base Theory that allows us to look through the eyes of the characters.

Goku and Vegeta in the Toei verse have always fight like that. Those two weather alone or fused never go all out from the start of a fight and in the off chance they do start off at full power it's a rare accusation. Goku and Vegeta always fight feel out rounds before going all the way. As for your power vs strain comment that is wrong.

Their are two times in the series where Goku discuss the strain a form gives and it is implied Vegeta knew about a form as well. In Super if Goku and Vegeta don't start all out its because they are feeling their opponent out or their training. In Goku and Trunks's battle SSJ3 was more than enough to beat Trunks thus one could use it despite the strain and the fact its weaker than SSJB for example.

As for your friend I doubt he is a professional and doesn't think out his fights as my brother is a MMA fighter and he he has several gameplans he goes over before getting into the cage. Same for my cousin who is a boxer.

[Hero]

At this point in the story, Goku and Vegeta can only be beaten by two people in their own universe. They have to look to other universes to EVEN have any competition.

No one is even close to a match for them now, so the game plan is to go really easy on everyone and don't try at all -- you'll get a good fight this way. All they have ever wanted to do is fight and train. The 'Why' is a very easy question to answer.

Everyone here in this thread is thinking all too logically and not understanding the emotion behind Goku and Vegeta's choices. They are not logical fighters. They're self-centered and choose to fight anyone and everyone who they can get their hands on. They don't plan out fights ... they don't calculate the boost one form can give minus the strain it causes -- we here at Kanzenshuu do that. They don't -- they just follow their emotions and fight. My best friend is a professional MMA fighter and this is how he thinks too.

EDIT: I hope this didn't come across as snarky to anyone. I am trying to present a view beyond the semantics of God Ki and the Two-Base Theory that allows us to look through the eyes of the characters.

I actually like your post since I box myself, but the problem everyone has with Goku's behavior and with using SSJ2 and the like is that his transformations work like:

Normal ki base < SSJ < SSJ2 < SSJ3 < Godly base < SSJB < SSJB with kaioken.

So then, if his Godly base can get him up to way above SSJ3, why ever transform to any golden form when you can just keep on using your base and increasing its power the more your enemy powers up? It makes it confusing for the viewers and makes Goku look dumb as a fighter because he's wasting energy and time with useless transformations.

[miguelnuva1]

At this point in the story, Goku and Vegeta can only be beaten by two people in their own universe. They have to look to other universes to EVEN have any competition.

No one is even close to a match for them now, so the game plan is to go really easy on everyone and don't try at all -- you'll get a good fight this way. All they have ever wanted to do is fight and train. The 'Why' is a very easy question to answer.

Everyone here in this thread is thinking all too logically and not understanding the emotion behind Goku and Vegeta's choices. They are not logical fighters. They're self-centered and choose to fight anyone and everyone who they can get their hands on. They don't plan out fights ... they don't calculate the boost one form can give minus the strain it causes -- we here at Kanzenshuu do that. They don't -- they just follow their emotions and fight. My best friend is a professional MMA fighter and this is how he thinks too.

EDIT: I hope this didn't come across as snarky to anyone. I am trying to present a view beyond the semantics of God Ki and the Two-Base Theory that allows us to look through the eyes of the characters.

I actually like your post since I box myself, but the problem everyone has with Goku's behavior and with using SSJ2 and the like is that his transformations work like:

Normal ki base < SSJ < SSJ2 < SSJ3 < Godly base < SSJB < SSJB with kaioken.

So then, if his Godly base can get him up to way above SSJ3, why ever transform to any golden form when you can just keep on using your base and increasing its power the more your enemy powers up? It makes it confusing for the viewers and makes Goku look dumb as a fighter because he's wasting energy and time with useless transformations.

A true fighter knows how to fight with just enough strength to win. Its why Vegito didn't go SSJ2 or SSJ3 and completely destroy Buu or anger him further.

[kaioken12]

A true fighter knows how to fight with just enough strength to win. Its why Vegito didn't go SSJ2 or SSJ3 and completely destroy Buu or anger him further.

I think, the point was merely that SSJ1 was plenty to dominate Buu. Also, he planned to be absorbed.

See, my problem isn't that they use forms that suffice for victory and a good fight. It is the discrepancy between power and energy consumption.

Take Vegetto. SSJ1 consumes less energy than SSJ2 or 3. Still, it is powerful enough to dominate Buu. So that's all good.

Now, in DBS, they explained that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are upgraded variants of SSJ1, which waste a big amount of energy and put a strain on the user's body. Ok, this fits to the manga. Still, all good.

Power-wise I would totally agree with:

Normal ki base < SSJ < SSJ2 < SSJ3 < Godly base < SSJB < SSJB with kaioken

But if you look at energy cost or stamina it would roughly (!) / give or take look like that:

Normal ki base < SSJ < Godly Base < SSJ2 < SSJB < SSJ3 < SSJB with kaioken.

This assumption is not a fixed order. But based on the fact that the higher golden SSJ levels were stated to be obsolete now, we can assume that SSJ1 is the only remaining feasible golden form because it is the only cost-efficient one. The higher golden SSJ levels consume a lot of stamina and even SSJB puts less strain on the body than SSJ1 (hence, Kaioken-compatible).

So, if Goku goes SSJ3 he actually burns away more stamina for a weaker form. Why would he even do that? Unlike Vegetto only going SSJ1, it makes literally no sense in this context.

You could argue that it is somewhat (!) comparable to Goku using 20x Kaioken first in battles, before going SSJ for a bigger challenge. Or even a hypothetical 50x Kaioken instead of SSJ.
He doesn't do that, because it would waste more energy for a lesser powerup, while also putting a greater strain on his body.
Similarly, it shouldn't make sense to go SSJ2 or SSJ3 anymore. A concept, that they weirdly chose to dump by now.

[miguelnuva1]

The thing is despite what Toriyama says the ssj2 and ssj3 forms don't burn through stamina that quick. The one time ssj3 did burn through Goku it was do to Buu having hax regen and ssj2 never really tired a person out.

[Tectorman]

My explanation for Goku still utilizing SSJ2 and SSJ3 is that being at those levels of power allowed him to gauge more accurately where his opponents stood.

He can engage with Godly Base, Godly SSJ, and SSJB and be massively above both Trunks and where Black Goku was at that time. And he could then suppress down to match while still utilizing a low-energy-drain form.

But the series (well, franchise) has shown that it's difficult to accurately gauge how much effort is necessary to do something if you're not down at that thing's level. Goku & co. were all suppressed as hell during the Buu Saga Tournament and they were still putting in punch numbers hilariously above Hercule's score. Even in the manga were Vegetto inmediately went SSJ, he knew he'd be stronger than Buuhan, but he kept surprising himself by just how much. And Frieza is arguably the biggest argument for this idea. Even in his final form, he's shown to have the ability to control how much of his power he uses. And even so, Frieza still uses suppression forms because they're necessary for him to not accidentally wreck his local environment.

So if Goku had used a more powerful, more energy-efficient form against Trunks instead of SSJ2 or SSJ3, I imagine it would go something like this:

Trunks goes to SSJ2. Goku gauges that to be about 1% of his Godly Base, and so uses that amount. After a brief exchange, it turns out that even 1% is still five times stronger than Trunks's SSJ2. Goku, of course, has enough control not to seriously injure Trunks even with a 5x power gap, but even a brief exchange with a fighter five times as strong as he is wears Trunks out completely. And Goku simply hasn't had enough time to learn how strong Trunks is now. Using SSJ2 would have been more informative.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Normal ki base < SSJ < SSJ2 < SSJ3 < Godly base < SSJB < SSJB with kaioken.

So then, if his Godly base can get him up to way above SSJ3, why ever transform to any golden form when you can just keep on using your base and increasing its power the more your enemy powers up? It makes it confusing for the viewers and makes Goku look dumb as a fighter because he's wasting energy and time with useless transformations.

Ahhh, okay, I see where you are coming from now. I think I misunderstood what was being said by a couple of people. Yeah, right, right, he shouldn't bother transforming into any golden-haired form because of the strain ... it does make him look like an unintelligent fighter. Hmmmm, the only thing I can think of is that ... his Saiyan beyond God/Godly Base is stagnant at the same power Final Form Frieza (RoF) was at?

Their are two times in the series where Goku discuss the strain a form gives and it is implied Vegeta knew about a form as well. In Super if Goku and Vegeta don't start all out its because they are feeling their opponent out or their training. In Goku and Trunks's battle SSJ3 was more than enough to beat Trunks thus one could use it despite the strain and the fact its weaker than SSJB for example.

As for your friend I doubt he is a professional and doesn't think out his fights as my brother is a MMA fighter and he he has several gameplans he goes over before getting into the cage. Same for my cousin who is a boxer.

I may have not explained myself well. Yeah, my friend definitely does have a gameplan of sorts, and I recall the instance where Goku and Vegeta talk about this. I meant we, here, focus so critically on the nitty-gritty details of their abilities that I think we do not see the whole picture. Goku and Vegeta consider all their options when fighting. I just don't think they were analyzing Black as closely as we are when they met him.

[Alee9977]

You can't use the water-copy Vegeta arc because that is only filler, you should use all the canon information that is given to you. They never talked about beyond god form or anything, it is just a full powered base form, not a transformation.
Right now, the strongest characters are Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, they are all on the same tier until we get to SSG which Trunks can't reach. And besides, SSJ2 Trunks was fighting with a SSJ Goku, or at least that is what they showed in the episode, I don't know if they made any mistakes drawing Goku's hair but it makes sense.
SSJ2 Trunks can't keep up with Black meanwhile SSJ2 Goku can.
For me, it isn't that confusing, I understand the power levels but we just don't have any numbers, you have to work them out with the comments the characters give about each other

[Darkprince410]

You can't use the water-copy Vegeta arc because that is only filler, you should use all the canon information that is given to you.

Given the nature of Super, we can't instantly dismiss what's "filler" or "non-canon" within the anime. There's no reason to dismiss the Comméson-Vegeta's ability to easily handle Ssj3 Gotenks, and Goku's ability to fight evenly with him in both base form and Ssj God Ssj just because it doesn't work with what you think their levels should be.

[miguelnuva1]

You can't use the water-copy Vegeta arc because that is only filler, you should use all the canon information that is given to you. They never talked about beyond god form or anything, it is just a full powered base form, not a transformation.
Right now, the strongest characters are Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, they are all on the same tier until we get to SSG which Trunks can't reach. And besides, SSJ2 Trunks was fighting with a SSJ Goku, or at least that is what they showed in the episode, I don't know if they made any mistakes drawing Goku's hair but it makes sense.
SSJ2 Trunks can't keep up with Black meanwhile SSJ2 Goku can.
For me, it isn't that confusing, I understand the power levels but we just don't have any numbers, you have to work them out with the comments the characters give about each other

There is no non canon filler in super.

[Alee9977]

You can't use the water-copy Vegeta arc because that is only filler, you should use all the canon information that is given to you. They never talked about beyond god form or anything, it is just a full powered base form, not a transformation.
Right now, the strongest characters are Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, they are all on the same tier until we get to SSG which Trunks can't reach. And besides, SSJ2 Trunks was fighting with a SSJ Goku, or at least that is what they showed in the episode, I don't know if they made any mistakes drawing Goku's hair but it makes sense.
SSJ2 Trunks can't keep up with Black meanwhile SSJ2 Goku can.
For me, it isn't that confusing, I understand the power levels but we just don't have any numbers, you have to work them out with the comments the characters give about each other

There is no non canon filler in super.

For me, everything that is written/added by Toei is filler, so even the Gohan's training scene is filler, unless Toriyama and Toyotaro decide to add it to the manga, which in that case it can be considered canon, but that is only my opinion.

[miguelnuva1]

You can't use the water-copy Vegeta arc because that is only filler, you should use all the canon information that is given to you. They never talked about beyond god form or anything, it is just a full powered base form, not a transformation.
Right now, the strongest characters are Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, they are all on the same tier until we get to SSG which Trunks can't reach. And besides, SSJ2 Trunks was fighting with a SSJ Goku, or at least that is what they showed in the episode, I don't know if they made any mistakes drawing Goku's hair but it makes sense.
SSJ2 Trunks can't keep up with Black meanwhile SSJ2 Goku can.
For me, it isn't that confusing, I understand the power levels but we just don't have any numbers, you have to work them out with the comments the characters give about each other

There is no non canon filler in super.

For me, everything that is written/added by Toei is filler, so even the Gohan's training scene is filler, unless Toriyama and Toyotaro decide to add it to the manga, which in that case it can be considered canon, but that is only my opinion.

The anime holds more weight than the manga this time around but as you said ita your opinion.