How much of Super do you think is influenced by fan fervor?

DBZAOTA482 · Post by **DBZAOTA482** » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:29 pm

Toriyama has a history of writing at the seat of his pants and I (and several others) have compared the writing in Super to fanfiction. Super is essentially the Goku and Vegeta show where only the omnipotent characters are relevant with Bulma being the only one to escape this trap to some extent.
An Evil Goku was something that fans have been asking for a long time and now in Super, we got Black Goku who's essentially fulfilling that wish. People also wanted Freeza and guess what...? Resurrection F happened but fans complained of the errors in Freeza's revival and his gains.
Goku was always depicted as a simple-minded person who puts training and fighting above everything else but he clearly valued the people around him. In Super he's shown as a complete manchild despite being well into his 30's and at times a full-fledged dumbass who can't put two and two together. He's also shown as rather uncaring towards his family... the episode with Pan flying was the only time he wasn't being a total dickhead to his family. Chi-Chi is more evident case... at least with the anime. Toei always put her over the top but the old anime at least seemed like it was trying to develop her as a character. In Super, she's almost never shown on screen other than to nag. In contrast with Bulma, the writers actually seem interested in developing her as a character and gives her all these great moments. Also, Super gives so much attention to Bulma and Vegeta's relationship while Goku and Chi-Chi is basically thrown under the bus... which is different from the Z anime where it had a lot of moments for them. Vegeta is shown as loving to his family but very disgruntled and Bulma is this wonderful waifu while Goku tries to shark responsibility at every chance and Chi-Chi is the b*** monster trying to warp Goku into her ideal man... they seem to only tolerate each other at best.
Lastly, there's Gohan. While I still find the constant bitching of his fandom very annoying, they have a legit reason to complain about Gohan getting the shaft. He is (potentially) the strongest fighter but Toriyama keeps shoving him to the background. In fact, he not even an interesting anymore... his scholar career thing is not even touched upon at all. While the anime does give him some episodes (like Ep. 17) where they don't show him as a nerdy loser but those moments don't last for very long and he soon gets embarrassed in combat.
There's other things like Yamcha getting shat on at every chance and Krillin being the plucky comic relief but there's not enough material to write about.

fadeddreams5 · Post by **fadeddreams5** » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:49 pm

I would say the writing is on par with a lot of fan fiction, in the sense that it's terribad and uninspired.

However, the ideas in Super are fairly unique--specifically, in BoG. I absolutely detest how Goku attains SSJG, but the concept, as well as new characters and multiverse expansion, were a breath of fresh air. I rarely see a fanfiction think outside the box; they usually play around with pre-established ideas, like the saiyan tail, kaioshin, regular ssj levels, and movie villains. The original characters tend to be based on characters already introduced (either in DB or another shonen anime), lacking any personality of their own. Lastly, the tones are usually either very "DB" or very dark; there is never a middle ground. This is, of course, based on my selective experience.

Also note, I hate Resurrection F with a burning passion, but when it was announced, I was extremely excited. The idea of a villain returning is NOT fanfictiony; I hate that this has become a thing when American comics do it all the time. It really depends on how the story is executed, which could have been incredibly well in the case of a villain like Frieza, but they failed miserably. The same applies for Goku Black, but the arc still has time to wow me.

Saikyo no Senshi · Post by **Saikyo no Senshi** » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:00 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: An Evil Goku was something that fans have been asking for a long time and now in Super, we got Black Goku who's essentially fulfilling that wish.

This turned out to be a positive for me. Black is not just an evil generic Gokuu clone he is much more than that atleast as of now he is. I despised the idea when it was announced and even complained but Black Gokuu proved me wrong he looks like an interesting character infact it is the only thing that has kept me interested in the arc. So even if it was borrowed from fanfiction it didn't turn out bad Toriyama and the writers involved have handled Black well so far.

- Travis

TroubledPrincess · Post by **TroubledPrincess** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:19 pm

I couldn't agree more with your points. I love that they give Bulma so much development and give a lot of fan service for the Bulma/Vegeta relationship, I've noticed though that Vegeta doesn't seem as spoken as he used to; it's as if he wants to be there but also hate where is life is. They're completely killing Goku's character even though he's supposed to be the main. He has always been obsessed with increasing his power and fighting the very strongest but the lack of good ol' compassion he would show toward his friends and Chi Chi isn't quite as strong anymore. I'd love for more strong interactions between Goku and Chi Chi; not just lovey scenes but actual bonding.
Krillin is barely ever seen anymore too. He's supposed to be Goku's closest friend and it's feeling like a high school comedy, where Vegeta is replacing Krillin as best friend... Even though I wouldn't necessarily call Veg and Goku best friend's. It just feel like it.
And then Piccolo, my absolute favorite character, has been reduced to a glorified babysitter. Though many of his scenes with Pan are adorable and well liked, it's as if he's been changed from one of the front warriors to a simple background character. And what happened to him retraining Gohan? It's as if they started training again then abruptly stopped.
Thoughts?

Avok · Post by **Avok** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:35 pm

I 100% agree.

ChronoTwigger · Post by **ChronoTwigger** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:40 pm

TroubledPrincess wrote:I couldn't agree more with your points. I love that they give Bulma so much development and give a lot of fan service for the Bulma/Vegeta relationship, I've noticed though that Vegeta doesn't seem as spoken as he used to; it's as if he wants to be there but also hate where is life is. They're completely killing Goku's character even though he's supposed to be the main. He has always been obsessed with increasing his power and fighting the very strongest but the lack of good ol' compassion he would show toward his friends and Chi Chi isn't quite as strong anymore. I'd love for more strong interactions between Goku and Chi Chi; not just lovey scenes but actual bonding.
Krillin is barely ever seen anymore too. He's supposed to be Goku's closest friend and it's feeling like a high school comedy, where Vegeta is replacing Krillin as best friend... Even though I wouldn't necessarily call Veg and Goku best friend's. It just feel like it.
And then Piccolo, my absolute favorite character, has been reduced to a glorified babysitter. Though many of his scenes with Pan are adorable and well liked, it's as if he's been changed from one of the front warriors to a simple background character. And what happened to him retraining Gohan? It's as if they started training again then abruptly stopped.
Thoughts?

A: I hate ChiChi so, in fact, the less I see her the better.
B: I replied to Vegeta bromance elsewhere. Krilin get a job. Sayan doesn't work. So they end to hang around XD.
C: Piccolo role as a fighter... mumble. Since Gohan training, for some reason he developed a strong fatherly instinct (strange, he can't have a family on his own!!). But if Gohan missing, nothing much left to do for him. ALL characters are mostly background figures in Super, at least Piccolo have a given role: Uncle Piccolo.

precita · Post by **precita** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:40 pm

The moment it was announced Future Trunks was returning that immediately rang the "fanfiction" bells for me.

People have been clamoring for Future Trunks to return to the present for years, and it never happened in DBZ, the movies or GT. And now it did.

Neo-Makaiōshin · Post by **Neo-Makaiōshin** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:41 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Toriyama has a history of writing at the seat of his pants and I (and several others) have compared the writing in Super to fanfiction. Super is essentially the Goku and Vegeta show where only the omnipotent characters are relevant with Bulma being the only one to escape this trap to some extent.
An Evil Goku was something that fans have been asking for a long time and now in Super, we got Black Goku who's essentially fulfilling that wish. People also wanted Freeza and guess what...? Resurrection F happened but fans complained of the errors in Freeza's revival and his gains.
Goku was always depicted as a simple-minded person who puts training and fighting above everything else but he clearly valued the people around him. In Super he's shown as a complete manchild despite being well into his 30's and at times a full-fledged dumbass who can't put two and two together. He's also shown as rather uncaring towards his family... the episode with Pan flying was the only time he wasn't being a total dickhead to his family. Chi-Chi is more evident case... at least with the anime. Toei always put her over the top but the old anime at least seemed like it was trying to develop her as a character. In Super, she's almost never shown on screen other than to nag. In contrast with Bulma, the writers actually seem interested in developing her as a character and gives her all these great moments. Also, Super gives so much attention to Bulma and Vegeta's relationship while Goku and Chi-Chi is basically thrown under the bus... which is different from the Z anime where it had a lot of moments for them. Vegeta is shown as loving to his family but very disgruntled and Bulma is this wonderful waifu while Goku tries to shark responsibility at every chance and Chi-Chi is the b*** monster trying to warp Goku into her ideal man... they seem to only tolerate each other at best.
Lastly, there's Gohan. While I still find the constant bitching of his fandom very annoying, they have a legit reason to complain about Gohan getting the shaft. He is (potentially) the strongest fighter but Toriyama keeps shoving him to the background. In fact, he not even an interesting anymore... his scholar career thing is not even touched upon at all. While the anime does give him some episodes (like Ep. 17) where they don't show him as a nerdy loser but those moments don't last for very long and he soon gets embarrassed in combat.
There's other things like Yamcha getting shat on at every chance and Krillin being the plucky comic relief but there's not enough material to write about.

All this mostly western fandom but, does SUPER try to please western fans or japanese fans? and Does the japanese fandom wanted any of what you wrote? and does the staff of SUPER at japan know anything at all about western fanfiction?

Lord Beerus · Post by **Lord Beerus** » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:06 am

An Evil Goku was something that fans have been asking for a long time and now in Super, we got Black Goku who's essentially fulfilling that wish.

That;s news to me. As far as I knew, fans were more looking forward to new and never-before-seen villains. I mean, granted they way they's handled Goku Black has been quite satisfactory and they keep the mystique and mystery about the character in the air and still have fans guessing who he truly is even with episode summary leaks. But "Evil Goku" has been done before, so I find it hard to believe that fans in drove has been asking for this. At least in Japan.

People also wanted Freeza and guess what...? Resurrection F happened but fans complained of the errors in Freeza's revival and his gains.

Resurrection F did no happen because fans wanted it. It only happened because Toriyama listened to a cool metal rock song and was a fan of Maximum The Hormone. The demand from the fans, if there even was a demand, was not a catalyst in any way for that movie happening.

Goku was always depicted as a simple-minded person who puts training and fighting above everything else but he clearly valued the people around him. In Super he's shown as a complete manchild despite being well into his 30's and at times a full-fledged dumbass who can't put two and two together.

That really is no different to how he acted in the manga.

He's also shown as rather uncaring towards his family... the episode with Pan flying was the only time he wasn't being a total dickhead to his family.

When has Goku shown to be uncaring to his family in Super? Hell, Super is one of the very few instances where he took a job to support his family. Plus, he essentially gave Chi Chi 100 Million Zeni. So...

Chi-Chi is more evident case... at least with the anime. Toei always put her over the top but the old anime at least seemed like it was trying to develop her as a character. In Super, she's almost never shown on screen other than to nag. In contrast with Bulma, the writers actually seem interested in developing her as a character and gives her all these great moments. Also, Super gives so much attention to Bulma and Vegeta's relationship while Goku and Chi-Chi is basically thrown under the bus... which is different from the Z anime where it had a lot of moments for them. Vegeta is shown as loving to his family but very disgruntled and Bulma is this wonderful waifu while Goku tries to shark responsibility at every chance and Chi-Chi is the b*** monster trying to warp Goku into her ideal man... they seem to only tolerate each other at best.

Well... I'll be honest, I don't really care that much for Chi-Chi and her attitude has always flip flopped from hot to cold so much in the anime.

Lastly, there's Gohan. While I still find the constant bitching of his fandom very annoying, they have a legit reason to complain about Gohan getting the shaft. He is (potentially) the strongest fighter but Toriyama keeps shoving him to the background. In fact, he not even an interesting anymore... his scholar career thing is not even touched upon at all. While the anime does give him some episodes (like Ep. 17) where they don't show him as a nerdy loser but those moments don't last for very long and he soon gets embarrassed in combat.

I do agree that Gohan could be doing more in the show. But it's ultimately up to Toriyama whether they can find a good storyline for him instead of just throwing him into battles for no rhyme of reason other than just making up the numbers. I really wouldn't like it if Gohna was shoehorned into the plot just because the fans want to see more of him.

There's other things like Yamcha getting shat on at every chance and Krillin being the plucky comic relief but there's not enough material to write about.

This has been a thing in Dragon Ball way before Super.

Luso Saiyan · Post by **Luso Saiyan** » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:07 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Toriyama has a history of writing at the seat of his pants and I (and several others) have compared the writing in Super to fanfiction.

So Super is fan fiction (even though its story comes from the original author himself) whenever you think it's pandering to fans (how one gets to that conclusion based on speculation alone I have no idea), except when it doesn't and fans are right for complaining about not getting what they want? That's a contradicting logic which doesn't make any sense at all.

Alruneia · Post by **Alruneia** » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:31 am

Luso Saiyan wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:Toriyama has a history of writing at the seat of his pants and I (and several others) have compared the writing in Super to fanfiction.
So Super is fan fiction (even though its story comes from the original author himself) whenever you think it's pandering to fans (how one gets to that conclusion based on speculation alone I have no idea), except when it doesn't and fans are right for complaining about not getting what they want? That's a contradicting logic which doesn't make any sense at all.

You're twisting words here. Comparing Super to fan fiction is not the same as saying that Super is fan fiction.

Anyway, I don't have much to add other than that I agree with pretty much everything that's been said in this thread. Bringing back old characters and pulling the Evil Protagonist is very fan fiction-esque. That doesn't mean it's bad, though! Execution is key.
Most of the fanfic vibes I get from Super come from things I've already put into my own fanfic suddenly becoming canon, honestly. Five things so far, actually. I'm keeping count.

Chuquita · Post by **Chuquita** » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:22 pm

I appreciate many of the seemingly fandom shout outs. There's so many different segments of Dragon Ball fandom out there it's nice when multiple parts get these.
I've had head-canon stuff appear in Super and it makes me happy.

BlazingFiddlesticks · Post by **BlazingFiddlesticks** » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:06 pm

Dragon Ball is so old, so popular, and so over-analyzed that you cannot move a pace in any direction without stepping on someone's toes. No one should take offense at Super doing things they don't like, because that was foregone conclusion. On the other hand, Chiquita is correct in that the reverse is also true!

The question for me is expectations; why should a show that was announced a year too early to ride the coattails of a unexpectedly successful movie do anything remotely inventive? That never seems to have been the point, so much so that we Toriyama's own implied souring to the show. Goku is going to be goofy and irresponsible 99% of the time regardless of context because its easy to write and Goku is so simple-minded that you cannot draw up a fool-proof complaint as to why he shouldn't, as this very forum routinely demonstrates.

Beerus-sama · Post by **Beerus-sama** » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:33 pm

What I think fans did take a part is the character relevance.
Characters like Goku, Vegeta, Bulma and Future Trunks seems to be the most popular following Beerus and Whis.

I feel Super (the anime) doesn't know what to do to fill gaps whether the manga just tell the story as it was told by Toriyama. In consequence the characters show almost always a caricature version of themselves and the situations feel repetitive. So Goku was innocent and made dumb mistakes? lets have him do something dumb, or make him believe things that its obvious they're lies in the meantime. Beerus and Whis love food? lets have them eating whatever the characters have at the moment whenever they are at screen....The latter is not that bad, but it tends to become boring when Beerus and Whis will always like the food that is given to them and thats all they do.

The pairing of Vegeta and Bulma I also think it has to do with fans, as for what I've seen searching for dragon ball, people loves this pairing and its the most popular. Everything in excess is bad, and thats what killed the like for me for this pairing. It was shown in almost every episode starting with episode 2. Same with the other two examples, its always the same and in the case of Goku its annoying.

This arc seems to be the change, except maybe for Beerus and Whis for the moment, so I hope Toei can put the characters in more interesting situations whenever Toriyama's description ends and they have to be creative to fill the gaps.

Luso Saiyan · Post by **Luso Saiyan** » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:22 pm

Alruneia wrote:You're twisting words here. Comparing Super to fan fiction is not the same as saying that Super is fan fiction.

Of course everybody knows Super isn't fan fiction, but his argument is that it's similar and he's equating it as such.

Mazingerdestro · Post by **Mazingerdestro** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:02 am

I don't think in general Japan cares for fan opinions. However, since Toyotaro is basically the closest thing to a fanboy becoming a mangaka for db, I can seriously imagine him giving his opinions and ideas to Toriyama.

Especially the latest arc reminds me o Xicor for some reason

Kanzenshuu

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