Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I don't think I can find any fault in that list. Excellent work as always man.

P.S. It's a nice change of pace that you have Piccolo that high.

[Darkron2151]

@RandomGuy96 I like the list, however, I'm just confused about something. I can understand Gotenks' power increase from transforming from Base to Super Saiyan, but when he turns Super Saiyan 3, why does he get a different boost as apposed to Goku's boost for Super Saiyan 3? Is it because he skips Super Saiyan 2 (in a sense)? Is it because of Fusion?

[RandomGuy96]

I don't think I can find any fault in that list. Excellent work as always man.

P.S. It's a nice change of pace that you have Piccolo that high.

Thanks.

Yeah, as I said it's mostly because of his performance at the Cell Games. He had a noticeable advantage on the Cell Juniors, and he was even able to help the others with their Cell Juniors. A stark contrast to the manga, where he's pretty clearly doing worse than Vegeta and Trunks.

@RandomGuy96 I like the list, however, I'm just confused about something. I can understand Gotenks' power increase from transforming from Base to Super Saiyan, but when he turns Super Saiyan 3, why does he get a different boost as apposed to Goku's boost for Super Saiyan 3? Is it because he skips Super Saiyan 2 (in a sense)? Is it because of Fusion?

It's a fusion thing, yeah.

[ekrolo2]

With all the hubbub about the Super manga, I decided to take a crack at its power levels for the Battle of Gods arc:

Pre-Goku vs Beerus:

Goku - 100 million (Base Form)
- 5 billion (Super Saiyan)
- 10 billion (Super Saiyan 2)
- 40 billion (Super Saiyan 3)

Every version of the arc has Beerus say Base Goku can't beat Freeza, except this one. In-fact, Beerus only comments on Goku being able to defeat Freeza when he launches a barrage at him as a Super Saiyan 2! However, given how well Piccolo fares against Frost, an opponent against Vegeta required Super Saiyan in order to defeat, I'm going to go out on a limp and assume that Base Saiyan's aren't stronger than him still.

Vegeta - 95 million (Base Form)
- 4.75 billion (Super Saiyan)
- 9.5 billion (Super Saiyan 2)
- 19 billion (Rageta!)

Unlike the film where Vegeta's touted as superior to Goku or the TV show where he's strong enough to make Beerus use 10%, the only comment about Vegeta's power is Krillin saying "When did Vegeta get this strong?! You may choose to interpret this as him being better than Gotenks and Gohan who get their asses kicked but I choose to think this is Krillin merely commenting on how strong Vegeta's gotten in-comparison to his usual power. Why a x2 boost? I see his mutated SSJ2 as him somewhat forcing himself into SS3 but due to him not being dead or a hybrid, he can't properly get there.

Gohan - 650 billion (Ultimate), Irrelevant (real power)

Gotenks - 400 billion (Super Saiyan 3)

Piccolo - 2.5 billion (or roughly on par with Cell Games Goku)

Everyone else (except Satan) - honestly, who gives a flying fuck?

Goku vs Beerus:

Super Saiyan God Goku - 10 trillion (or a 1 on the God scale, stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Vegetto, but inferior to his Super Saiyan 3. God is a x100 000 Base increase)
- 100 million (Base Form)

Beerus - 15 trillion (or a 1.5 on the God scale)
- 100 trillion (maximum power)

Whis - 150 trillion

Why put Goku so low? Well, firstly, there is no fusion comment of any kind from Goku, so him still being weaker than a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto shouldn't be an issue really. Secondly, Toyotaro is clearly playing up Goku and Vegeta as still having a ways to go with the God power given how Blue functions later on in the tournament arc. Goku himself says he's merely scratching the surface so making him a 1 to Beerus' 10 feels like a good way to showcase this. Why not put Goku's base form as stronger now? Well, as I said earlier, Piccolo isn't shown to train or have any big increase in strength yet nearly defeats Frost, a an opponent Goku and Vegeta needed Super Saiyan to defeat. This can only make sense if Goku and Vegeta don't really have a vast increase in their base forms. Further, in what little we know of Toyotaro's version of the F arc, the narrator mentions that Goku and Vegeta absolutely needed to work together to beat Golden Freeza, signaling that Toyotaro is clearly making manga Goku & Vegeta much weaker than their animated counter parts.

[LightBing]

I disagree with a few things, although some would imply discussions previous to Super. I'll leave that out.

Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta is the closest to a fight Beerus gets, even better than SSJ3. To me that puts him above SSJ3 Goku. Your placement is as correct as mine, it could be anything really.

The other point is, Goku says that God is a World he couldn't even imagine. That's pretty much confirmation that it's above a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, since that World is very well within his range of imagination.

[ekrolo2]

I disagree with a few things, although some would imply discussions previous to Super. I'll leave that out.

Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta is the closest to a fight Beerus gets, even better than SSJ3. To me that puts him above SSJ3 Goku. Your placement is as correct as mine, it could be anything really.

The other point is, Goku says that God is a World he couldn't even imagine. That's pretty much confirmation that it's above a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, since that World is very well within his range of imagination.

I can see the Vegeta thing but if we took that to its most logical conclusion, he'd probably end up stronger than Gohan and I'm not having that. I simply think Beerus underestimated Vegeta's endurance and that let him get in a few hits.

As for Goku, I think you can let the Vegetto thing slide as Goku's pretty much tapped out by the Boo Saga. Him getting God would still bring him to a level of power he couldn't ever attain just for himself without fusion.

[LightBing]

I disagree with a few things, although some would imply discussions previous to Super. I'll leave that out.

Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta is the closest to a fight Beerus gets, even better than SSJ3. To me that puts him above SSJ3 Goku. Your placement is as correct as mine, it could be anything really.

The other point is, Goku says that God is a World he couldn't even imagine. That's pretty much confirmation that it's above a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, since that World is very well within his range of imagination.

I can see the Vegeta thing but if we took that to its most logical conclusion, he'd probably end up stronger than Gohan and I'm not having that. I simply think Beerus underestimated Vegeta's endurance and that let him get in a few hits.

As for Goku, I think you can let the Vegetto thing slide as Goku's pretty much tapped out by the Boo Saga. Him getting God would still bring him to a level of power he couldn't ever attain just for himself without fusion.

I won't ever dare to say Goku is tapped out. The point is Goku would always strive for more, so the line has weight behind it and is not just a common hype, Vegetto would be top until more is discovered. I'm pretty sure the same line is also in the BoG movie, with it's point being the exact same as the "not even me fusing with Vegeta would work", which was to excluded fusion.
I'm sure Mr.Toriyama realized the problems such a technique poses, it appears to me he choose to make Beerus insanely powerful and force the ritual.
Should be interesting to see if a stronger opponent appears, if fusion is back in play.

One way to exclude a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto is simply by not acknowledging his possible existence. I have a theory, which originated from the Base/SSJ as the new norm tidbit from Mr.Toriyama and Gotenks going past SSJ2, directly to SSJ3.
Basically, the fusions allowed the Saiyans to reach their current points, by the very nature of them. Which excludes SSJ2 and SSJ3. Vegetto, although stronger, already had in play the not use SSJ2 and SSJ3, SSJ being it's final and better form. Gotenks, wasn't ahead enough to make SSJ more viable than SSJ3, although it was already past the SSJ2 point.

[ekrolo2]

I disagree with a few things, although some would imply discussions previous to Super. I'll leave that out.

Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta is the closest to a fight Beerus gets, even better than SSJ3. To me that puts him above SSJ3 Goku. Your placement is as correct as mine, it could be anything really.

The other point is, Goku says that God is a World he couldn't even imagine. That's pretty much confirmation that it's above a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, since that World is very well within his range of imagination.

I can see the Vegeta thing but if we took that to its most logical conclusion, he'd probably end up stronger than Gohan and I'm not having that. I simply think Beerus underestimated Vegeta's endurance and that let him get in a few hits.

As for Goku, I think you can let the Vegetto thing slide as Goku's pretty much tapped out by the Boo Saga. Him getting God would still bring him to a level of power he couldn't ever attain just for himself without fusion.

I won't ever dare to say Goku is tapped out. The point is Goku would always strive for more, so the line has weight behind it and is not just a common hype, Vegetto would be top until more is discovered. I'm pretty sure the same line is also in the BoG movie, with it's point being the exact same as the "not even me fusing with Vegeta would work", which was to excluded fusion.
I'm sure Mr.Toriyama realized the problems such a technique poses, it appears to me he choose to make Beerus insanely powerful and force the ritual.
Should be interesting to see if a stronger opponent appears, if fusion is back in play.

One way to exclude a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto is simply by not acknowledging his possible existence. I have a theory, which originated from the Base/SSJ as the new norm tidbit from Mr.Toriyama and Gotenks going past SSJ2, directly to SSJ3.
Basically, the fusions allowed the Saiyans to reach their current points, by the very nature of them. Which excludes SSJ2 and SSJ3. Vegetto, although stronger, already had in play the not use SSJ2 and SSJ3, SSJ being it's final and better form. Gotenks, wasn't ahead enough to make SSJ more viable than SSJ3, although it was already past the SSJ2 point.

The line isn't in the manga though which is subject of the discussion. On the topic of Goku being tapped out, I think the Boo Saga pretty clearly implies this when he and Vegeta had to train their absolute asses of to achieve the great height of kind of sorta stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Even Toriyama, in a tidbit, said that everyone's as strong as they can get in BoG and after that they decline for old age. This might seem weird but once you consider the fact that Goku & Vegeta have exhausted all training forms available to them, it's either a decline, stagnation or go to Whis to go to the next level. Goku even acknowledges the fact the afterlife has become ineffective when he says no one there could begin to compare to him in power.

With that in mind, Goku being essentially tapped out by the Boo Saga seems plausible and makes the idea of Super Saiyan God bringing him to a level he can't ever achieve on his own without fusion and even that wouldn't let him beat Beerus.

I do find the fusion theory interesting but honestly, I doubt Vegetto can't use Super Saiyan 2 or 3. For one, a component of him can use it both already and he's a freshly created being who probably had a ridiculous amount of new potential to attain higher power. I can understand the dance fusion potentially having a ceiling like that but the Potara essentially creates a new, permanent being who, while holding the memories of his fusees, is his own, real person.

[LightBing]

The "World he couldn't imagine" line is in the manga.

What you're describing is situational. We could also consider Goku tapped out by the end of the 23rd TB, after the Namek arc, after the Cell Games. It's all the same, the difference its that the Boo Arc was the last arc. That Mr.Toriyama tidbit, if it's the same I'm thinking, it's in reference to the general cast. Humans do get old, Saiyans don't until their eighty's(maybe seventy's).
You're talking as if getting to SSJ2 Gohan level isn't impressive, don't forget Gohan is the ridiculous prodigy. The fact that, Vegeta at least, got there without any new training methods, tell us that he's in constant improvement, Goku likewise. I don't remember Goku saying such thing about the afterlife. Only that nobody was comparable to him, that being the reason he never tried fusion.

Regarding the theory, I'm not saying Vegetto can't go SSJ2 or SSJ3. He just wouldn't, the same way Goku and Vegeta currently don't. Vegetto is evolved to the point that current Goku and Vegeta are, that's what I'm trying to say.
Gotenks is halfway there, his SSJ is better than SSJ2, although it still can't trump SSJ3.

[ekrolo2]

The "World he couldn't imagine" line is in the manga.

What you're describing is situational. We could also consider Goku tapped out by the end of the 23rd TB, after the Namek arc, after the Cell Games. It's all the same, the difference its that the Boo Arc was the last arc. That Mr.Toriyama tidbit, if it's the same I'm thinking, it's in reference to the general cast. Humans do get old, Saiyans don't until their eighty's(maybe seventy's).
You're talking as if getting to SSJ2 Gohan level isn't impressive, don't forget Gohan is the ridiculous prodigy. The fact that, Vegeta at least, got there without any new training methods, tell us that he's in constant improvement, Goku likewise. I don't remember Goku saying such thing about the afterlife. Only that nobody was comparable to him, that being the reason he never tried fusion.

Regarding the theory, I'm not saying Vegetto can't go SSJ2 or SSJ3. He just wouldn't, the same way Goku and Vegeta currently don't. Vegetto is evolved to the point that current Goku and Vegeta are, that's what I'm trying to say.
Gotenks is halfway there, his SSJ is better than SSJ2, although it still can't trump SSJ3.

How much a person is tapped out I think has to do with their training methods available to them. After the 23rd TB, Goku doesn't even get twice as strong as he was against King Piccolo when Raditz arrives. It's implied he doesn't become massively better for the Androids until he uses the ROSAT then gets better still in the afterlife. By the Boo Saga, Goku has no one on his level, which is kind of necessary for getting stronger since sparring partners of comparable level are shown to help out greatly. The fact no one in the afterlife is apparently good enough to match Goku's base form should tell us something about how effective it is.

I'm not saying Goku & Vegeta couldn't have kept making some decent strength gains using out-dated methods, but given the fact Vegeta had to train like a madman during the 7 years to potentially not still reach Gohan's strength at the Cell Games does indicate that powering on through ineffective methods only gets you so far. We don't see Goku or Vegeta train much in the manga (at all in Vegeta's case) but I seriously doubt its anywhere near as rigorous as during the 7 years. Probably more out of force of habit than striving to massively improve.

I could see that idea work for Vegetto even though I don't really like Super Saiyan giving you that high a boost when there are still forms above it but I wouldn't use Gotenks skipping it to mean anything really. Goku skips 2 when he transforms to fight Kid Boo.

[apex_pretador]

Where do you feel SP Cell falls under? I keep thinking in the neighborhood of 10 Billion (With Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku at 40 Billion for perspective).

slightly below 2 billion.

This forum just got less nice.

To whom may care for a debate. There's no x10 vs x50 debate. I'll try to explain my interpretation to the best of my ability. The quote for reference: Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

The first part is clear, he feels like 50-fold like some have determined(I assume Shueisha is the only source for that), was an exaggeration. The second part he breaks it down. "While drawing it", I assume he's thinking back and telling us his thoughts while he was drawing Super Saiyan.
"I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point". If he just wanted to say it was 10 fold, the last words are redundant. But I think they mean something, which connects with the "while drawing it" part.
While doing the SSJ, he remembered about the Kaioken. He had to, unless his forgetfulness was so severe he forgot chapters he wrote months/weeks back. So while current Mr.Toriyama doesn't remember about the Kaioken x20, he remembers about his thought process at the time, while drawing it; a 10-fold change. Which I interpret as being x30.

Even if people disagree, is my interpretation at least logical?

I like your interpretation.

[ekrolo2]

Now that the scanlation for chapter 13 is out, I figured I'd take a crack at doing a PL list for the U6 tournament.

I want to stress that I didn't use the F manga here because that was made to promote the film and the one detail we know from it is that Goku & Vegeta apparently HAD to work together to beat Freeza when he came back. Implying a different take from either the show or movie where Freeza's arrival was a glorified practice match.

Spoiler:

Pre-Tournament:

Goku - 180 mill (Base)
- 90 bill (Super Saiyan, x500 Base)
- 18 trill (Super Saiyan God, x100 000 Base, 1.8 on the God Scale)
- 36 trill (Super Saiyan Blue, x200 000 Base, 3.6 on the God Scale)

Vegeta - 175 mill (Base)
- 87.5 bill (Super Saiyan, x500 Base)
- 35 trill (Super Saiyan Blue, x200 000 Base, 3.5 on the God Scale)

Beerus - 100 trill

Whis - 150 trill

Champa - 100 trill

Vados - 170 trill

A few things to get out of the way! The reason for the extremely high increase of regular Super Saiyan is due to Goku & Vegeta increasing their skill with the form to such a degree, it gives them more power than either 2 or 3 while sapping less strength! Their base forms being that low is due to the fact Piccolo, a fighter who isn't shown or mentioned training can take on Frost who Goku and Vegeta needed Super Saiyan in order to defeat, even after two long fights and being quite a bit tired. Thus indicating that Piccolo is still above Goku & Vegeta in their base forms.

The Tournament:

Universe 7 Team

Goku - 280 mil (Base)
- 140 bill (Super Saiyan)
- 10 bill (Super Saiyan vs Frost)
-28 trill (Super Saiyan God, 2.8 on the God Scale)
- 56 trill (Super Saiyan Blue, 5.6 on the God Scale)

Vegeta - 275 mill (Base)
- 137.5 bill (Super Saiyan)
- 5 bill (Super Saiyan vs Frost)
- 55 trill (Super Saiyan Blue)
- 5.5 trillion (Super Saiyan Blue vs Hit)

Piccolo - 2 bill (with weights)
- 2.75 bill (without weights)

Boo - 15 bill

Monaka - fodder

Universe 6 Team

Hit - 280 mill (vs Base Goku)
- 5.5 trill (vs tired Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta)
- 140 bill (vs Super Saiyan Goku)
- 28 trill (vs Super Saiyan God Goku, Max Power)

Cabba - 280 mill (Base Form)
- 14 bill (Super Saiyan, x50 Base)

Magetta - 150 bill (pre-insult)
- 0 (post-insult)

Frost - 90 mill (First Form)
- 180 mill (Second Form)
- 270 mill (Third Form)
- 7.5 bill (Final Form, vs Goku)
- 3 bill (vs Piccolo)
- 1 bill (vs Super Saiyan Vegeta)

Botamo - No clue, his durability could let him tank hits from even Blooper Saiyan's.

Why give Goku and Vegeta such small training gains? Well, I think its because the ROSAT has lost its effectiveness. Already in the Cell Saga we see how the initial time going in the one that yields the best results while further entries into aren't really worthwhile. Whether this has to do with how soon you go in again after the first time or just the fighters getting used to its environment is a debate onto itself. But personally, I'm firmly on the latter side. Like any training form, its good for a certain level of fighter then just rapidly losses effectiveness later on.

Cabba only gets an x50 increase for Super Saiyan because he just unlocked it, once he gets stronger and shows back up, he'll probably unlock its full potential like Goku and Vegeta have.

And now, Hit. Hits power varies more than any others in the whole tournament if you ask me. When he beats Vegeta, he doesn't know how to deal with his unconscious body, to throw it out or what? This along with later comments about how he's refraining from using killing blows tells me Hit is purposefully dropping his strength to match that of his opponent. This would usually result in an even battle where both contestants can equally wound one another (see Goku vs Cell for proof). However, with Time Leap, Hit can effectively avoid any attack and damage his opponent enough to beat them down, but not kill them.

This is why Base Goku is able to hurt him, he drops himself to Base Goku's level to be able to beat him up and not outright kill him which leaves him vulnerable to Goku's surprise Hit. Going back to Cell vs Goku again, if Cell fought Goku at max power, nothing Goku threw at him would've dented the bastard. However, because Cell dropped his strength to fight equally with Goku, this left him open to devastating surprise attacks like the IT Kamehameha. I believe this is a very similar situation.

Some might find it weird a 1000 year old warrior like Hit would feel the need to match his opponent, but, like in the anime, he's after Vados' cube and doesn't want to accidentally get himself disqualified. Thus, I chalk up Hits varying power as him playing things really safe for the most part.

[ahill1]

My most recent power level list:


[spoiler]Raditz saga

Kame Sen'nin : 139

Chaozu : 145

Yajirobe : 145

Yamcha : 177

Kuririn : 206

Tenshinhan : 250

Mr. Popo : 275

Kami-Sama : 310

Piccolo Junior (weighted) : 322
~W/o weights : 408
~Kakankôsappô : 1,330

Son Goku (weighted) : 334
~W/o weights : 416
~Kamehameha : 924

Raditz : 1,250

Son Gohan : 1
~afraid : 710
~enranged : 1,307

Kaio-Sama : 3,500



Vegeta saga

Yajirobe : 800

Chaozu : 1,000

Saibaiman : 1,200

Son Gohan : 1,307

Yamcha : 1,350

Kuririn : 1,625

Tenshinhan : 1,700

Piccolo Junior : 2,250

Son Gohan (enranged) : 2,500
~Masenko : 2,800

Nappa (vs Z fighters) : 3,200
~full power : 7,700

Son Goku : 8,050
~Kaioken : 16,100
~Kaioken x3 : 24,150

Vegeta : 18,000
~Oozaru : less than 180,000



Namek saga

Son Gohan : 1,500

Kuririn (weighted) : 1,500
~W/o weights : 1,700

Nameks warriors : 3,000

Cui : 18,000

Dodoria : 20,000

Zarbon : 22,000
~monster : 28,500

Vegeta : 24,000
~post Zenkai : 29,500



Ginyu saga 1

Gurd : 8,000

Kuririn : 11,000

Son Gohan : 12,000

Vegeta : 29,500

Reacoom : 40,000

Butta : 40,000

Jheese : 40,000

Nail : 42,000

Ginyu (suppressed) : 66,000
~full power : 120,000

Son Goku (suppressed) : 5,000
~vs Ginyus : 66,000
~full power : 90,000
~Kaioken : 180,000



Ginyu Saga 2

Ginyu-Goku : 23,000

Kuririn : 24,000

Son Gohan : 26,000

Jheese : 40,000

Vegeta : 50,000 - 250,000?



Freeza saga 1

Kuririn : 260,000

Son Gohan : 300,000

Piccolo Junior (weighted) : 270,000
~W/o weights : 324,000

Vegeta : 480,000

Freeza (1st form) : 530,000



Freeza saga 2

Son Gohan (enranged) : 1,000,000

Freeza 2nd form (initial) : 1,060,000
~powered up : 1,200,000
~full power : 1,400,000

Piccolo Junior (after Nail) : 1,250,000
~W/o weights : 1,500,000

Freeza (3rd form) : 1,850,000

Son Gohan (Zenkai) : 900,000
~enranged : 1,600,000
~Masenko : 1,800,000

Vegeta (Zenkai) : 2,400,000

Freeza (final form) : 2,400,000
~speed up : 3,200,000
~50% : 70,000,000
~70% : 98,000,000
~100% : 140,000,000

Son Goku : 3,000,000
~Kaioken x10 : 30,000,000
~Kaioken x20 : 60,000,000
~Super Saiyajin : 150,000,000



Trunks saga

Yamcha : 180,000

Tenshinhan : 230,000

Kuririn : 350,000

Son Gohan : 900,000

Piccolo Junior : 3,300,000

Vegeta : 3,500,000

King Cold : 100,000,000

Mecha Freeza (suppressed) : 100,000,000
~full power (unseen) : 160,000,000

Future Trunks : 4,000,000
~Super Saiyajin : 200,000,000

Son Goku : 4,400,000
~Super Saiyajin : 220,000,000



Androids saga

Yamcha : 2,750,000

Tenshinhan : 3,400,000

Kuririn : 4,100,000

Son Gohan : 4,800,000

Android #19 : 168,000,000
~post absorptions : 210,000,000

Android #20 : 189,000,000
~post absorptions : 227,500,000

Piccolo Junior : 260,000,000

Future Trunks : 6,000,000
~Super Saiyajin : 300,000,000

Son Goku : 6,600,000
~Super Saiyajin : 330,000,000

Vegeta : 6,800,000
~Super Saiyajin : 340,000,000

Android #18 : 450,000,000

Android #17 : 500,000,000



Cell saga

Imperfect Cell : 390,000,000

Piccolo Junior after Kami-sama (weighted) : 450,000,000

Android #18 : 450,000,000

Android #17 : 500,000,000

Piccolo Junior (w/o weights) : 520,000,000
~Beaten up : 350,000,000
~Gekiretsu Kodan : 800,000,000

Imperfect Cell (post humans) : 1,000,000,000

Android #16 : 1,000,000,000

Semi Perfect Cell (initial) : 2,000,000,000
~full power : 3,000,000,000

Vegeta (post Rosat) : 40,000,000
~Super Saiyajin : 2,000,000,000
~Super Saiyajin Grade 2 : 4,000,000,000

Future Trunks (post Rosat) : 38,000,000
~Super Saiyajin : 1,900,000,000
~Super Saiyajin Grade 2 : 3,800,000,000
~Super Saiyajin Grade 3 : 10,000,000,000

Perfect Cell (initial) : 3,600,000,000
~warm up : 8,000,000,000

Son Goku FPSSJ (50%) : 15,000,000,000



Cell Games

Android #16 : 1,000,000,000

Piccolo Junior (post Rosat) : 16,800,000,000

Future Trunks (post 2nd Rosat) : 384,000,000
~Super Saiyajin : 19,200,000,000

Vegeta (post 2nd Rosat) : 400,000,000
~Super Saiyajin : 20,000,000,000

Cell Junior : 20,500,000,000

Son Goku FPSSJ (warm up) : 8,000,000,000
~FPSSJ (100%) : 30,000,000,000

Perfect Cell (warm up) : 8,000,000,000
~vs Son Goku : 33,000,000,000
~Real speed : 40,000,000,000
~full power : 120,000,000,000
~Buff : 150,000,000,000
~Super Perfect : 180,000,000,000

Son Gohan FPSSJ : 40,000,000,000
~SSJ2 : 200,000,000,000[/spoiler]

[ahill1]

How strong do you guys have Base Goku (end of Z/vs Oob)? It's pretty much factual that he'd be around Kid Boo's level?

[Rubens]

Where do you feel SP Cell falls under? I keep thinking in the neighborhood of 10 Billion (With Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku at 40 Billion for perspective).

slightly below 2 billion.

This forum just got less nice.

To whom may care for a debate. There's no x10 vs x50 debate. I'll try to explain my interpretation to the best of my ability. The quote for reference: Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

The first part is clear, he feels like 50-fold like some have determined(I assume Shueisha is the only source for that), was an exaggeration. The second part he breaks it down. "While drawing it", I assume he's thinking back and telling us his thoughts while he was drawing Super Saiyan.
"I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point". If he just wanted to say it was 10 fold, the last words are redundant. But I think they mean something, which connects with the "while drawing it" part.
While doing the SSJ, he remembered about the Kaioken. He had to, unless his forgetfulness was so severe he forgot chapters he wrote months/weeks back. So while current Mr.Toriyama doesn't remember about the Kaioken x20, he remembers about his thought process at the time, while drawing it; a 10-fold change. Which I interpret as being x30.

Even if people disagree, is my interpretation at least logical?

I like your interpretation.

Sorry for joining so late to the discussion. I do like this interpretation.
I also would like to add that from my point of view, the "steady multipliers" (as I call them) don't make sense for the massive power gap between base and super saiyan; I believe the value which multiplies base power into super saiyan decreases over time with training, since they harness the energy and absorb it to their base body, thus decreasing the gap (just an example: if it starts with x50, with training it could drop down to, idk let's say, 3x). This is just a tip of my whole perspective but I would like to know what you guys think about the idea.

[DanielSSJ]

How strong do you guys have Base Goku (end of Z/vs Oob)? It's pretty much factual that he'd be around Kid Boo's level?

Not necessarily. Given how Oob doesn't have much of a handle on his power, and the overall shortness of the fight in the manga (anime extensions be damned), it is entirely possible that his power output was much less than the full 30 billion (from my list) that Pure Boo was packing.

I would personally put base Goku at around 120~150 million at base form, with his Boo arc base level being 90 million. Mind you, I'm not taking Super into account as I haven't been happy with the explanations (or lack thereof) of how strong everyone is in that show, and the writing and pacing of Super in general.

Sorry for joining so late to the discussion. I do like this interpretation.
I also would like to add that from my point of view, the "steady multipliers" (as I call them) don't make sense for the massive power gap between base and super saiyan; I believe the value which multiplies base power into super saiyan decreases over time with training, since they harness the energy and absorb it to their base body, thus decreasing the gap (just an example: if it starts with x50, with training it could drop down to, idk let's say, 3x). This is just a tip of my whole perspective but I would like to know what you guys think about the idea.

On the whole, I actually like the idea that the Super Saiyan power gradually flows into the base form as the Saiyan gets stronger, making the boost of the form get progressively weaker. The only fly in the metaphorical ointment of that theory is how, as of Battle of Gods, pre-god Goku and the others apparently are still weaker than 100% Freeza in their base form, which would leave things very cramped with a much smaller power boost. Now, if you chose to ignore that particular tidbit it could work just fine, but as things stand right now, I prefer to stick with the 50x boost when making power levels.

[Rubens]

Sorry for joining so late to the discussion. I do like this interpretation.
I also would like to add that from my point of view, the "steady multipliers" (as I call them) don't make sense for the massive power gap between base and super saiyan; I believe the value which multiplies base power into super saiyan decreases over time with training, since they harness the energy and absorb it to their base body, thus decreasing the gap (just an example: if it starts with x50, with training it could drop down to, idk let's say, 3x). This is just a tip of my whole perspective but I would like to know what you guys think about the idea.

On the whole, I actually like the idea that the Super Saiyan power gradually flows into the base form as the Saiyan gets stronger, making the boost of the form get progressively weaker. The only fly in the metaphorical ointment of that theory is how, as of Battle of Gods, pre-god Goku and the others apparently are still weaker than 100% Freeza in their base form, which would leave things very cramped with a much smaller power boost. Now, if you chose to ignore that particular tidbit it could work just fine, but as things stand right now, I prefer to stick with the 50x boost when making power levels.

It's ok. But about that "fly", I find it not just inconsistent but strange considering Beerus wouldn't even need a close inspection the read Goku's power - and in Super's manga Goku jumps straight to super saiyan without Beerus comenting on his base power whatsoever, so it's possible Toyotaro prefered to ignore that detail aswell to avoid the same problem (which he did in various ocasions through the manga).

So it's not about ignoring, it's more about... interpretation and mine is that the point of the whole scene was an excuse to bring out the super saiyan that defeated Freeza.

[brett wheeler]

This forum just got less nice.

To whom may care for a debate. There's no x10 vs x50 debate. I'll try to explain my interpretation to the best of my ability. The quote for reference: Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

The first part is clear, he feels like 50-fold like some have determined(I assume Shueisha is the only source for that), was an exaggeration. The second part he breaks it down. "While drawing it", I assume he's thinking back and telling us his thoughts while he was drawing Super Saiyan.
"I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point". If he just wanted to say it was 10 fold, the last words are redundant. But I think they mean something, which connects with the "while drawing it" part.
While doing the SSJ, he remembered about the Kaioken. He had to, unless his forgetfulness was so severe he forgot chapters he wrote months/weeks back. So while current Mr.Toriyama doesn't remember about the Kaioken x20, he remembers about his thought process at the time, while drawing it; a 10-fold change. Which I interpret as being x30.

Even if people disagree, is my interpretation at least logical?

I would like to hear you out on this if it wasnt for the fact that this too is illogical. goku was having a hard time with frieza at 1% but goku was holding back 5-10 times the power he displayed or the kioken, so lets say goku base is at 2.5% of frieza full power. OK now 30* that is 60 some percent while at the least he was a match for frieza full power, so at 2.5% he would atleast need 45-50* boost to be on par to slightly above him thats the only issue I have with it, and why I say it has to be a 50* boost but youre entitled to youre opinion and yours isnt any more relevant then mine

[LightBing]

This forum just got less nice.

To whom may care for a debate. There's no x10 vs x50 debate. I'll try to explain my interpretation to the best of my ability. The quote for reference: Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

The first part is clear, he feels like 50-fold like some have determined(I assume Shueisha is the only source for that), was an exaggeration. The second part he breaks it down. "While drawing it", I assume he's thinking back and telling us his thoughts while he was drawing Super Saiyan.
"I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point". If he just wanted to say it was 10 fold, the last words are redundant. But I think they mean something, which connects with the "while drawing it" part.
While doing the SSJ, he remembered about the Kaioken. He had to, unless his forgetfulness was so severe he forgot chapters he wrote months/weeks back. So while current Mr.Toriyama doesn't remember about the Kaioken x20, he remembers about his thought process at the time, while drawing it; a 10-fold change. Which I interpret as being x30.

Even if people disagree, is my interpretation at least logical?

I would like to hear you out on this if it wasnt for the fact that this too is illogical. goku was having a hard time with frieza at 1% but goku was holding back 5-10 times the power he displayed or the kioken, so lets say goku base is at 2.5% of frieza full power. OK now 30* that is 60 some percent while at the least he was a match for frieza full power, so at 2.5% he would atleast need 45-50* boost to be on par to slightly above him thats the only issue I have with it, and why I say it has to be a 50* boost but youre entitled to youre opinion and yours isnt any more relevant then mine

I didn't do the math on this, I'm just interpreting the interview. I will do some new power levels later, if it doesn't work I'll admit this was wrong. Although I think it can work, if we don't follow the 120.000.000 number given to Freeza in a guidebook. There's no way of knowing how much percentage of his power Freeza was using against Goku initially.

The last power level numbers I did, about a year ago, x40 worked fine. If we go strictly by the information in the manga, Second Form Freeza being above 1.000.000 and 50% Freeza being stronger than x10 Kaioken Goku. Base Goku has a wide widow where he can be put, number wise, which would modify greatly his power with all the multiplications.

Anyway like I said before, I'll be starting a new power level list solely based on the manga and Mr.Toriyama interviews and tidbits. When I reach the Freeza part, I'll see if my interpretation is wrong or not.
I'll be posting it here, when I get around to it.

[SSJFutureTrunks]

How strong would you guys put Master Roshi at the Buu and ROF arcs?