Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[TonyTheTiger]

While the more competent someone is the more money they can command when seeking enmployment, things like tight plotting, compelling dialogue, and high quality art don't inherently cost more to actually produce than their shitty counterparts. They just require the writers and artists be good at their craft. A good artist could bust out the Mona Lisa for free if they were so compelled. Meanwhile I wouldn't be able to draw a banana even if you paid me a million bucks to try.

[rereboy]

While the more competent someone is the more money they can command when seeking enmployment, things like tight plotting, compelling dialogue, and high quality art don't inherently cost more to actually produce than their shitty counterparts. They just require the writers and artists be good at their craft. A good artist could bust out the Mona Lisa for free if they were so compelled. Meanwhile I wouldn't be able to draw a banana even if you paid me a million bucks to try.

A professional mangaka works practically everyday, more than eight hours a day, with a team of assistants, a studio and a salary linked to his work for motivation.

An amateur fan artist has his actual job taking those 8+ hours a day, and then gets to work on his fan work on his free time, which is shortened by everything else that takes up his free time (family, friends and so on), with no salary coming from it or the same kind of logistical support.

There's simply no comparison. Like every other activity, there's a lot of actual work in this, which requires a lot of time, effort and dedication to improve and build. Just because someone is talented, it doesn't mean that that person just requires 30 minutes to do an entire manga chapter and that he doesn't require a lot of work, focus and effort to improve.

The difference is immediately noticeable in DBM's release schedule, with a mangaka putting out an entire manga chapter of 18 pages per week, while DBM puts out 3 pages and then goes on months-long breaks with filler chapters made by others. And even that release schedule is outstanding compared to most fan mangas out there.

[TonyTheTiger]

The work timetable is 100% the result of having deadlines to meet. If you set your own deadlines then you aren't under the gun. Hell, that alone means that "fan work" has the advantage because they can take as much time as they need to polish their work.

Part of the reason professionals can make a career out of this stuff is not just because they're good at the craft but because they can be consistently good in spite of having to bust shit out at lightning speed. If someone's work is dodgy when working at their own pace what do you think telling them "you have two weeks" is going to do to their work product? Even if you dropped a sack of money in front of them, do you really think that will improve their work's quality?

[rereboy]

The work timetable is 100% the result of having deadlines to meet. If you set your own deadlines then you aren't under the gun. Hell, that alone means that "fan work" has the advantage because they can take as much time as they need to polish their work.

There are plenty of mangakas that don't have weekly mangas, but have monthly mangas or even bi-monthly. There's even mangakas that basically publish when they want to publish and are able to publish like Miura and Togashi regarding Berserk and Hunter x Hunter.

Mangakas that publish weekly don't do it simply because they "have to". It's because they actually can do that. And they can do that, and do good work, because it's their job, not just something they do on the side. Completely different realities from fan-created work.

We might as well be comparing a professional soccer player who trains everyday and plays professional games many times per season to someone who goes out some Saturdays to play some soccer with his friends.

[TonyTheTiger]

The work timetable is 100% the result of having deadlines to meet. If you set your own deadlines then you aren't under the gun. Hell, that alone means that "fan work" has the advantage because they can take as much time as they need to polish their work.

There are plenty of mangakas that don't have weekly mangas, but have monthly mangas or even bi-monthly. There's even mangakas that basically publish when they want to publish and are able to publish like Miura and Togashi regarding Berserk and Hunter x Hunter.

Mangakas that publish weekly don't do it simply because they "have to". It's because they actually can do that.

No, see, you're deflecting. We're talking about judging DBM by basic writing conventions here. You're trying to argue that it can't be judged by regular standards because it's not paid work. But I just pointed out that being paid doesn't change the nature of the job and, if anything, makes it harder, not easier. You can't just weasel out of that by going on a tangent that some professional writers take longer than others to produce something. Let's stick to Salagir's writing specifically without making excuses for him. Again, the writers who take longer are at an advantage, not a disadvantage.

We might as well be comparing a professional soccer player who trains everyday and plays professional games many times per season to someone who goes out some Saturdays to play some soccer with his friends.

First of all, the standard that Toriyama set for Dragon Ball is not "professional soccer player." Let's get that out of the way first. It can be a profoundly stupid story at times. Second, an error is an error. Nobody is comparing Salagir to Akira Toriyama. They're just calling out Salagir's mistakes. If that guy who only plays on Saturdays fucks up a play then he fucked up a play. Calling out the fuck up isn't "comparing" him to a professional soccer player. Hell, even if you were to ask me to directly compare Salagir to Toriyama I'd say Salagir is sometimes better. But a narrative fuck up is a narrative fuck up.

[HeroR]

As someone who do work on both a deadline and self-impose deadline, they both take discipline.

Working on a deadline, you need to be able to give top work by a certain time-period, or else you don't get paid and it can ruined you reputation. It's hard and can be stressful. A self-imposed deadline, you don't have to give your top work and you don't have to even release on time. However, you're doing a disservice to your fans and yourself when you half-ass it. Which is why I put an equal amount of work into my fan work that I do for my actual paid job. So trying to say that Multiverse can't be judged professional is just insulting to everyone who work on it.

So Multiverse can and should be judged as professional work since that is the way Multiverse presents itself and I won't insult the people who work on it as anything less than professional. And so far, this fight is one of the worst in the series for me.

[Anime Kitten]

I didn't want to join in yet as I haven't caught up on the manga yet, but I must say, this is ridiculous. I think you are taking this fanmanga much too seriously. I fail to see how it presents itself as something that tries to be canon. It may fall in line with the original manga, but that doesn't mean we have to judge it as if it makes just as much or more sense as the original manga. I encourage you to just treat it as a fanmanga and nothing much more. It doesn't have to be complex if all that occurs are arguments.

[TonyTheTiger]

I didn't want to join in yet as I haven't caught up on the manga yet, but I must say, this is ridiculous. I think you are taking this fanmanga much too seriously. I fail to see how it presents itself as something that tries to be canon. It may fall in line with the original manga, but that doesn't mean we have to judge it as if it makes just as much or more sense as the original manga. I encourage you to just treat it as a fanmanga and nothing much more. It doesn't have to be complex if all that occurs are arguments.

I'm curious why this only happens when there's criticism. I've praised DBM on multiple occasions and nobody ever says to ease up because it's just a fan manga. HM...

[Zephyr]

I see no reason why this can't be compared to and measured against official products. Officially licensed content creators aren't untouchable, they're people just like fanwork creators. They're just as capable of producing quality material as official rights holders. Particularly when none of the major official content producers seem especially concerned with the quality of their work at the moment.

I mean, several fanwork creators are now creating their own official content. Their skill as creators is evidently potentially comparable as far as the higher-ups are concerned.

[The Monkey King]

Holy shit what a bullshit asspull move, how are people actually defending this?

And no you can't compare this to Gotenks' SGKA, that attack had a build up towards it (hell a chapter ended when Gotenks created his 1st ghost) not to mention it had a comedic payoff and was shown multiple times to be a powerful but flawed move (ghosts high fiveing each other, Vegito destroying Buu's ghosts with ki blasts). As random as Gotenks' ghosts were at least they were entertaining.

This whatever-the-fuck-Bra-did had no build up and was not even explained I mean seriously Bra substitutes herself with a goo version of herself and this goo has enough weight to it to pin King Cold?! And this all happened in the space of 4 panels?

In terms of basic story telling in a shonen Gotenks' attack was done leagues better than Bra's attack.

Honestly what was the point of that? She just could've made an after image then knocked Cold to the ground.

Bra is a Mary Sue

[Duo]

I didn't want to join in yet as I haven't caught up on the manga yet, but I must say, this is ridiculous. I think you are taking this fanmanga much too seriously. I fail to see how it presents itself as something that tries to be canon. It may fall in line with the original manga, but that doesn't mean we have to judge it as if it makes just as much or more sense as the original manga. I encourage you to just treat it as a fanmanga and nothing much more. It doesn't have to be complex if all that occurs are arguments.

I agree.

I'm not sure why so many people read this manga if they are going to bitch so excessively about it without holding out for an explanation as to what happened here. Might turn out to be something cool, or it might turn out to be stupid. Either way, the majority of the story has been really enjoyable so far. DB proper had some sloppier points as well (not quite like this, I suppose, but whatever).

Considering the way Son Bra has been presented as a character overall, I'm not sure I get the Mary Sue comparisons. Being OP does not a Mary Sue make.

[Skar]

The author's feelings are irrelevant. A fan-created work doesn't cease to be a fan-created work just because the work has great quality or because the author is giving it his best effort. It is what it is. Only professional works are professional works. This is not a professional work. Their realities and nature are different.

I understand where you're coming from. I wouldn't hold a fan comic to the same standards as a professional work when it comes to pacing or a release schedule because a fan comic lacks the resources that a professional work would have. DBM is only fan comic I'm aware of that even has a release schedule so they're doing the best they can.

Story-wise I don't think there's anything wrong with holding fan fiction and professional work to the same standard. I enjoy DBM more than any fanfic and GT and DBS despite them being official products. It's not because I have lower expectations for DBM but because so far it has appealed to me more overall than any of them. What attracted me to DBM was that it was different than the usual DBZ sequel and tried to avoid all the common tropes. I wasn't a fan of this new attack for Bra but I can give the author the benefit of the doubt and wait to see if he explains how it works. I think she's basing it on Gotenks' Kamikaze ghosts. She criticizes her brothers but part of that might be because they don't train or try to expand their techniques. I don't know but I hope there's an explanation given since this is an usual technique and only Gotenks has ever done anything similar to it.

I didn't want to join in yet as I haven't caught up on the manga yet, but I must say, this is ridiculous. I think you are taking this fanmanga much too seriously. I fail to see how it presents itself as something that tries to be canon. It may fall in line with the original manga, but that doesn't mean we have to judge it as if it makes just as much or more sense as the original manga. I encourage you to just treat it as a fanmanga and nothing much more. It doesn't have to be complex if all that occurs are arguments.

I agree with that when it comes to people who get zero enjoyment out of a story but visit it just to complain. There are some those who don't enjoy a story at all but take the time out of their day to complain about it any chance they get. I don't know what's the point of that to be honest. It would be like if I hated Naruto and visited a Naruto forum only to bash the story every new episode.

I think it's completely different when it's a fan offering constructive criticism. They offer it because they believe it could help the story improve. The goal isn't to insult the author but to point out that this particular scene or whatever doesn't meet the expectations they had for the story.

By the way, I made this regarding the whole Mary Sue discussion.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Edit: This new update to the forum is pretty cool!

[fexus]

Hahaha... There are literally people that defend this. I never thought I would see the day that people have some kind of an emotional investment towards a fan product that they didn't make in the first place. I mean you guys even praise a whole page about nothing besides showing Bra whole body holding a a special scythe?-blade style spirit sword. Even the mary sue argument is hilarious to read. The whole comic by Skar is actually making me laugh a lot more than any of the pages in DBM ever did. You could even say that it had a lot more entertainment than the whole DBM could ever give. Congrats.

[Skar]

Hahaha... There are literally people that defend this. I never thought I would see the day that people have some kind of an emotional investment towards a fan product that they didn't make in the first place. I mean you guys even praise a whole page about nothing besides showing Bra whole body holding a a special scythe?-blade style spirit sword. Even the mary sue argument is hilarious to read. The whole comic by Skar is actually making me laugh a lot more than any of the pages in DBM ever did. You could even say that it had a lot more entertainment than the whole DBM could ever give. Congrats.

Thanks I guess? I'm curious what you gain from reading DBM if you get literally no enjoyment out of it though. That would like hating the first episode (or first few episodes if you're willing to give it a chance) of a show and watching several seasons of it anyway. By the end of the story's run, what is there to gain from doing that honestly? The fans would feel like they invested their time in a story that they liked but you waste hours of your personal time on a story that you absolutely hated. I know some people act like they get pleasure from seeing actual fans arguing over the story but is it really worth going out of your way to check back every few days and read +1200 pages just to do that? Are you saying you wouldn't read DBM if there wasn't a thread for it on Kanzenshuu and a place to voice your disdain towards the story? Could you continue reading it and keep it to yourself or is part of the pleasure you gain from hating it also come from letting fans know you hate it?

[miguelnuva1]

I really think people are letting their hate for Bra overun their enjoyment of the comic now. I feel like at this point she could use a Final Kamehameha and people would call BS.

[Shin]

Hahaha... There are literally people that defend this. I never thought I would see the day that people have some kind of an emotional investment towards a fan product that they didn't make in the first place. I mean you guys even praise a whole page about nothing besides showing Bra whole body holding a a special scythe?-blade style spirit sword. Even the mary sue argument is hilarious to read. The whole comic by Skar is actually making me laugh a lot more than any of the pages in DBM ever did. You could even say that it had a lot more entertainment than the whole DBM could ever give. Congrats.

Thanks I guess? I'm curious what you gain from reading DBM if you get literally no enjoyment out of it though. That would like hating the first episode (or first few episodes if you're willing to give it a chance) of a show and watching several seasons of it anyway. By the end of the story's run, what is there to gain from doing that honestly? The fans would feel like they invested their time in a story that they liked but you waste hours of your personal time on a story that you absolutely hated. I know some people act like they get pleasure from seeing actual fans arguing over the story but is it really worth going out of your way to check back every few days and read +1200 pages just to do that? Are you saying you wouldn't read DBM if there wasn't a thread for it on Kanzenshuu and a place to voice your disdain towards the story? Could you continue reading it and keep it to yourself or is part of the pleasure you gain from hating it also come from letting fans know you hate it?

a good amount of people on kanzenshuu are doing this with Super and it's extremely draining to even discuss the show anymore.
in fact, I'm starting to see parallels with Super and DBM discussion.

I really think people are letting their hate for Bra overun their enjoyment of the comic now. I feel like at this point she could use a Final Kamehameha and people would call BS.

Bra could fall over and die from the Cell Arc heart virus and people would throw a fit about her dying the wrong way.

[Skar]

a good amount of people on kanzenshuu are doing this with Super and it's extremely draining to even discuss the show anymore.
in fact, I'm starting to see parallels with Super and DBM discussion.

I can understand that. I haven't logged-in in a few months but I've still been watching Super every week. I hated RoF and the RoF saga even more but in the end it's just a standalone fan service saga and luckily didn't represent the quality of the entire series. I enjoyed the U6 saga for the most part and so far I'm enjoying the Goku Black saga. I've had the same complaints that many others have had about the animation, transformations, development, etc but after a while I just kinda gave up. It's okay to voice your opinion but since it won't really accomplish anything unless you can get the vast majority of the fans to boycott the story or something then the only options are to either accept these faults and give it a chance or stop watching it.

[fexus]

Hahaha... There are literally people that defend this. I never thought I would see the day that people have some kind of an emotional investment towards a fan product that they didn't make in the first place. I mean you guys even praise a whole page about nothing besides showing Bra whole body holding a a special scythe?-blade style spirit sword. Even the mary sue argument is hilarious to read. The whole comic by Skar is actually making me laugh a lot more than any of the pages in DBM ever did. You could even say that it had a lot more entertainment than the whole DBM could ever give. Congrats.

Thanks I guess? I'm curious what you gain from reading DBM if you get literally no enjoyment out of it though. That would like hating the first episode (or first few episodes if you're willing to give it a chance) of a show and watching several seasons of it anyway. By the end of the story's run, what is there to gain from doing that honestly? The fans would feel like they invested their time in a story that they liked but you waste hours of your personal time on a story that you absolutely hated. I know some people act like they get pleasure from seeing actual fans arguing over the story but is it really worth going out of your way to check back every few days and read +1200 pages just to do that? Are you saying you wouldn't read DBM if there wasn't a thread for it on Kanzenshuu and a place to voice your disdain towards the story? Could you continue reading it and keep it to yourself or is part of the pleasure you gain from hating it also come from letting fans know you hate it?

Who said I got no enjoyment from reading this? The first few chapters trick me into thinking that the original cast was going to get more sceen time than the others but it looks like I was wrong. What I gain is the feeling of triumph. The feeling that I was right and the people against me was wrong. Some people like that feeling. And yes I would have never even read DBM if it is not for this specific thread. If I don't express my opinion to people and tell them that there are people that hate it, people that like it would get a big ego thinking that they actually have pretty decent taste. Hell they already have a big ego now thinking that this fan comic is immune to any and all criticism.

[Noah]

By the way, I made this regarding the whole Mary Sue discussion.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Such a freak ass big pic, but made laugh a lot lol

[Skar]

Who said I got no enjoyment from reading this? The first few chapters trick me into thinking that the original cast was going to get more sceen time than the others but it looks like I was wrong. What I gain is the feeling of triumph. The feeling that I was right and the people against me was wrong.

If you look at the tournament roster, U18 has the most contestants making it to the fourth round. They have three contestants out of the eight. Bardock's visions also imply that something may happen to Vegetto that could cause Goku and Vegeta to take the lead. That could be why other universes have been giving more spotlight since a lot of them might be out of the picture later on. Either way I wouldn't really consider making a prediction about a story and it coming true as a triumphant victory. I predicted that Monaka was just a joke character that Beerus used to motivate Goku and Vegeta and I remember that some people said that was wrong and predicted that he would end up being as strong as Beerus claimed. I didn't feel any sort of triumph when the random prediction I made about a story came true.

Some people like that feeling. And yes I would have never even read DBM if it is not for this specific thread. If I don't express my opinion to people and tell them that there are people that hate it, people that like it would get a big ego thinking that they actually have pretty decent taste. Hell they already have a big ego now thinking that this fan comic is immune to any and all criticism.

Fans of DBM give their constructive criticism all the time. If there are people who believe that it's immune to any and all criticism then they're probably really naive and young which means they'll figure out the reality of it themselves. Every story ever written has people who love it and people who hate it. Even a classic series like Lord of the Rings isn't loved 100% by all so of course a fan comic based on a shonen manga won't be. You're not really doing a public service or revealing a hidden truth by going out of your to express your hatred for DBM. You're doing it because you want to. If you do feel it's worth your time and effort and you get some form of pleasure out of it then by all means continue I guess. I just wanted to get a better understanding of your reasoning behind it.

By the way, I made this regarding the whole Mary Sue discussion.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Such a freak ass big pic, but made laugh a lot lol

Thanks . I didn't want to poke fun at anyone specifically so I just put myself in that role.