Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssbgoku]

I guess more like at least 6% but less then 10% if we include kaioken as real stuff, not just for entertainment one time thing to be forgotten.
If we don't inlclude kaioken then I guess 6-10-15 scale still work as long as you don't have current ss >= ssg, which i myself dont. Now it is mystery for me why goku didnt revert to ss3 after ssg time limit run out. I mean sure at that time it made sense but currently unless you you see it as only one time thing or ssb prototype then it doesnt make sense. Also if they wanted to keep cuurent ss goku as ssg level then then could make goku turn in ss against freeza and show golden freeza supperior forcing goku to turn ssb to stand even chance

I simply view it as, that ssj1-3 is below ssg and kkx10 was a one time thing. Since they had to make Goku 10x stronger than Vegeta. Toyotaru took the route of simply weakening ssj blue Vegeta's power and gave a reason why that happened. While Toei, just pumped Goku to be 10x stronger.

Basically i consider kkx10 filler. Some say copy Vegeta arc is filler, but we had flash backs to that arc in the Black arc, so it is connected. So unless someone mentions kkx10 or has a flash back. I consider it as like it never happened.

Edit; Also, Toei are being annoying for not thinking through with the stuff they make.

Yeah I can sign in under this with my arms and legs lol. I guess Toryiama put in the outline that Vegeta will loose and maybe something about being 10 weaker, while goku brings out great transformation back with red crimson aura.

Toei: "Sure that must be kaioken !"*am I not brilliant ?*
Toyataru: "Hmm... well super Saiyan god was last thing in super which would fit description, sure Toryiama meant to bring great transformation back "

Toryiama: "Great, you both have done well, but wait about Kaioken I am not sure if it fit with my 6-10-15 scale... oh well *writes to Toei to not bring out kaioken at all or bring some excusse about kaioken being only able to use with god ki for one time in life bullshit"

Toei: "Damn... ok so be it".

Honestly I like manga way of approaching much more, however I am not convinced with stamina issue with ssb as it was shown otherwise in rof... so there could be better excusee as maybe Hit simply hiting vital point disrupted focus of divine ki or forced it to leak out weakining it... I could buy it as hit surely could bypass god defence if he attacked before vegeta could react. IN goku example it was simple as hit was playing/testing him as goku approached him lightly not hardly like vegeta.

[buutenks]

Yeah I can sign in under this with my arms and legs lol. I guess Toryiama put in the outline that Vegeta will loose and maybe something about being 10 weaker, while goku brings out great transformation back with red crimson aura.

Toei: "Sure that must be kaioken !"*am I not brilliant ?*
Toyataru: "Hmm... well super Saiyan god was last thing in super which would fit description, sure Toryiama meant to bring great transformation back "

Toryiama: "Great, you both have done well, but wait about Kaioken I am not sure if it fit with my 6-10-15 scale... oh well *writes to Toei to not bring out kaioken at all or bring some excusse about kaioken being only able to use with god ki for one time in life bullshit"

Toei: "Damn... ok so be it".

Honestly I like manga way of approaching much more, however I am not convinced with stamina issue with ssb as it was shown otherwise in rof... so there could be better excusee as maybe Hit simply hiting vital point disrupted focus of divine ki or forced it to leak out weakining it... I could buy it as hit surely could bypass god defence if he attacked before vegeta could react. IN goku example it was simple as hit was playing/testing him as goku approached him lightly not hardly like vegeta.

I bet you its more along the lines of; Vegeta loses, because he got 10 times weaker than Goku. Rest u all fill the gaps.

So Toei, went with Kaioken, and Toyotaru depowered Vegeta.

Well, its no issues if u only transform once. Goku only transformed once vs Freeza. So it would be no issues there. Seems repeated transformations in a short period of time, according to Toyotaru really makes u super weak.

[Bullza]

I said it before but it got lost in the middle of everything else. Do you think Future Zamasu can be stronger than SSJR Black?

Goku said he had the potential to possibly become as strong as Beerus one day. Was that possible foreshadowing? He wouldn't have to be as strong as Beerus but he could have surpassed Goku and Black.

If he's in charge of Black and ordering him around you'd think he'd be stronger and he's the real villain behind everything from the looks of it so you'd think he'd be the main threat in the end.

[TheMikado]

^ This. The idea this is why I keep saying that outline called for Goku to be 10x stronger with no explanation at all and both went in different directions. Further it's unlikely Toriyama gave approval one way or another for the anime, he simply didn't put enough detail and likely wasn't deeply invested in whatever outcome the anime came up with. That's far more likely than him approving both wildly different scenarios that cause conflicting views later in the story.

[Bullza]

I think it's pretty safe to say that Toriyama let's other people decide how the choreography of the fights plays out. Obviously he writes the story, he'll set up the fights and decide who wins and the important things but the actual fight part is on other people.

Even for the movies he wrote the scripts for I'd say when it came down to things like SSJG Goku vs Beerus or the Z Fighters vs the Army then that would be all Toei.

[TheMikado]

I think it's pretty safe to say that Toriyama let's other people decide how the choreography of the fights plays out. Obviously he writes the story, he'll set up the fights and decide who wins and the important things but the actual fight part is on other people.

Even for the movies he wrote the scripts for I'd say when it came down to things like SSJG Goku vs Beerus or the Z Fighters vs the Army then that would be all Toei.

So you think both just independently came up with the idea to make Goku 10x stronger or are you saying they given the freedom to decide story wise the mechanics of how SSB worked?

[Bullza]

You mean with how in both version SSJB Goku ended up fighting Hit at a level 10x greater than SSJB Vegeta?

I'd say that was a coincidence if anything. I'd say they have a lot of leeway with how fights play out. They have probably have some leeway on the mechanics of things.

The manga came up with the form losing over 90% of its power when used twice. The anime said it had a perfect Ki control, that's probably each of their own ideas. The anime also came up with the tease about their powering up internally which really led to absolutely nothing and was never brought up again.

[TheMikado]

I'd say that was a coincidence if anything.

The same power decrease at the same point in the story??That's one Hell of a coincidence.

Do you think the Goku/Trunks Spar similarities was coincidence too?

[Bullza]

What power decrease was there in the anime?

Unlike the Goku/Trunks fight the whole Vegeta/Hit/Goku fight played out entirely differently.

[TheMikado]

What power decrease was there in the anime?

Unlike the Goku/Trunks fight the whole Vegeta/Hit/Goku fight played out entirely differently.

Power decrease is the wrong word.
I mean the Goku 10x stronger than Vegeta as SSB. Do you really think that the two scenarios that make Goku 10x stronger as a SSB happening at the exact same point in 50 episodes is a coincidence?

[Bullza]

Erm...yeah I suppose I do. In the manga there was an emphasis on how the timeskip wouldn't work against someone who was stronger so they just had to find some convenient way of nerfing Vegeta.

But that wasn't so much of a thing in the anime because in that version unlike the manga he could extend how long he could stop his time skip and even though SSJB Goku was more powerful than him he was still able to stop him even when he was using the Kaioken.

So I don't see why in the anime Goku would be required to be 10x stronger than Vegeta in order to have the fight that he had with him. Hit could have not extended his time skip and Goku could not have used his Kaioken and the fight could have still ended the same way it did in the manga.

[TheMikado]

I understand you're entitled to your opinion but everything from Vegeta going out quickly to Golu starting in base and working up are too similar to not think they came from the same source. My point is if that rest of the fight was pretty much outlined because the two media are so similar it seems likely that that Gokux10 Vegeta is also part of that same outline.

[Bullza]

The part with Vegeta losing badly and then Goku fighting Hit in Base form and being able to hit him I'm sure would all be in the outline. I just don't see why Toriyama would put in the outline that Goku had 10x the power of Vegeta when fighting Hit without explaining why, leading to Toyotaro and Toei having to come up for their own reason to explain it.

It's possible but that just seems really weird to me. It'd seem oddly specific in a fight that had so many large differences. They said Vegeta couldn't use 10%, not that he could only use 10% so Goku should be more than 10x as strong but I dunno, maybe.

[buutenks]

I said it before but it got lost in the middle of everything else. Do you think Future Zamasu can be stronger than SSJR Black?

Hard to tell. I am not so trustful of what they say in Super, since it can easily just be a toei thing to spice things up. Like the Gohan training thing. So, i think we will find out this ep, if Zamasu is the real deal or not.

[apex_pretador]

Seems like everyone is nitpicking and overblowing minor errors to call anime inconsistent. I see everything as perfectly consistent. Wait for 2 episode and I'm going to be ready for a huge PL list.

[DBZ Macky]

Seems like everyone is nitpicking and overblowing minor errors to call anime inconsistent. I see everything as perfectly consistent. Wait for 2 episode and I'm going to be ready for a huge PL list.

Beerus is 100% inconsistent though. Was he really enjoying a fight against someone less than 10% as strong as him?

[apex_pretador]

Seems like everyone is nitpicking and overblowing minor errors to call anime inconsistent. I see everything as perfectly consistent. Wait for 2 episode and I'm going to be ready for a huge PL list.

Beerus is 100% inconsistent though. Was he really enjoying a fight against someone less than 10% as strong as him?

Beerus said he hasn't used 10% in a loooooong time.
Don't see why he won't enjoy.

And even in manga beerus used around 10% power (already discussed a few pages ago why is beerus > 10x SSG goku in manga).

[TheMikado]

Seems like everyone is nitpicking and overblowing minor errors to call anime inconsistent. I see everything as perfectly consistent. Wait for 2 episode and I'm going to be ready for a huge PL list.

Beerus is 100% inconsistent though. Was he really enjoying a fight against someone less than 10% as strong as him?

Beerus said he hasn't used 10% in a loooooong time.
Don't see why he won't enjoy.

And even in manga beerus used around 10% power (already discussed a few pages ago why is beerus > 10x SSG goku in manga).

Yes, only through incredibly fan mental gymnastics can this be considered perfectly consistent. Making up fan head canon does not make something consistent.

[ssbgoku]

Seems like everyone is nitpicking and overblowing minor errors to call anime inconsistent. I see everything as perfectly consistent. Wait for 2 episode and I'm going to be ready for a huge PL list.

But it can not be... just take ssg as 6 and beerus as 100. Then ssg equal to ss so ss3 would 8x ssg, while ssb is at least 2 times as powerfull as ss3 at the bare miniumum.

Here you get ssb = 6*16=96, this is if ssb alone, now add kaioken x10 thing over it... good luck

[apex_pretador]

Seems like everyone is nitpicking and overblowing minor errors to call anime inconsistent. I see everything as perfectly consistent. Wait for 2 episode and I'm going to be ready for a huge PL list.

But it can not be... just take ssg as 6 and beerus as 100. Then ssg equal to ss so ss3 would 8x ssg, while ssb is at least 2 times as powerfull as ss3 at the bare miniumum.

Here you get ssb = 6*16=96, this is if ssb alone, now add kaioken x10 thing over it... good luck

SS (vs beerus) =/= SS (vs frost).
Fighting beerus, he was absorbing all of the god powers (ALL) but then he lost the god powers slowly, then he needed whis' training to bring out the god power, as in form of SSB. Remember how king kai said "he reached the power of god without ritual", not that "he became many times more powerful than god power" at RoF fight? Tht means that RoF blue is slightly stronger than SSG.