Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

I actually just forgot about the Original Saiyan God for this list

Since neither the Super manga or anime mention it, I just assume it doesn't exist it either. Toyotaro makes it a point to explain certain details the anime doesn't so I think he'd have worked the backstory of SSGod into narration or something if he intended on keeping it. I do agree with you that God is probably more dependant on ones battle power instead of a fixed increase but for the sake of a PL list I made one up for convenience.

Piccolo is between CG SS Gohan and CG Perfect Cell for me. The reason why I don't have them closer to him in power is because Frosts transformations, except his final one which is mastered unlike Freeza's, only gives him incremental increases. Freeza, between multiple transformations, only goes from 530 000 to roughly 3-4 million. Since Goku can trounce Frost in his first form and shrugs off his attacks even in Assault, I just assume he doesn't get much more powerful until his final form comes into play. Even then, Goku doesn't exert any significant amount of effort to beat Frost up and only loses because of the poison.

Piccolo's kind of weird. Everyone treats him as being really outclassed but then he fights Frost fairly evenly during their battle. He's getting tired more than Frost is but it isn't like the anime where he needs to raise his power through a strong attack, he's just taking on Frost in straight up combat. Frost even tells Piccolo he wants to end the battle quickly but he can't lay a single hit on him.

Another thing that leads some credence to them being inferior to Piccolo still is the fact Goku uses Gohan's previous Cell Games peak as a measuring stick against Trunks, the same way Vegeta did for Goku in the Boo Saga. Trunks is a bit stronger than Goku when they fight in Super Saiyan 2 so unless Gohan already bypassed Piccolo in base back in the Cell Games, I don't think they're stronger than him still without Super Saiyan.

It's logical for Goku to comment on Trunks growth, compared to the strongest person Trunks supposedly saw. The line doesn't quantify anything, Trunks might be vastly superior to SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan or barely.
This perspective makes me challenge how SSJ2 works, instead of bringing down the Saiyans base.

There's no way of knowing if Frost forms work the same way as Freeza's. I believe they don't. The Assault Form should be a significant boost, simply because Goku said it caught his attention.
I don't see Goku saying that towards such a low level. Instead I think Frost went above a SSJ level, which made Goku excited to fight him in his Final Form, that's why he stopped playing around and scared Frost into transforming.

Piccolo inferiority compared to Frost can't be disregarded, the manga insists on this point with Goku saying it, Piccolo saying and Frost also. Piccolo good showing against Frost doesn't contradict this.
He literally keeps Frost at arms length and never engages him head on, he still gets tired quicker and admits that he'll lose, he just won't go down without a struggle. Piccolo whole fight is softening up Frost, we can't call it an even fight.
Now this together with Base Goku toying with Assault Form, forces me to buff the Base Saiyans likely above Piccolo.
I think Assault Frost vs Piccolo would be a close fight, based on Frost saying he won't power down to get this over fast and Piccolo own request for Frost to go down a form.

The new material is adding to the abandonment of fixed multipliers of SSJ forms. That idea kinda goes against what the manga went for, post-Namek. Numbers become absent, characters type comments of Kaioken and Oozaru multipliers disappeared, mastery was brought up.

I think fans and guides, fell for the Kaioken trap. It was easy and comfortable, it removes any intangibles. Even in an out of universe perspective it's kinda silly, do people think Mr.Toriyama had a calculator in hand while drawing the manga? He said so himself, the numbers started getting too big. He might have done it, when they levels were at 1000 and so, after that it just gets ridiculous.
I don't see him having the dedication to be so perfectionist, to the point were it gives headaches, besides his forgetfulness and failing to write things down.

The moment Goku talked about mastery, I saw the word flexibility plastered in my manga. It's almost an explanation for children: Goku and Vegeta are both SSJ, Goku is stronger because he trained more and better at it aka mastery, easy peasy.
Hey, but that's just me.

[ekrolo2]

It's logical for Goku to comment on Trunks growth, compared to the strongest person Trunks supposedly saw. The line doesn't quantify anything, Trunks might be vastly superior to SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan or barely.
This perspective makes me challenge how SSJ2 works, instead of bringing down the Saiyans base.

I still think it's a good indicator of what Goku & Vegeta's base power is in relation to Trunks and in relation to past fighters.

There's no way of knowing if Frost forms work the same way as Freeza's. I believe they don't. The Assault Form should be a significant boost, simply because Goku said it caught his attention.
I don't see Goku saying that towards such a low level. Instead I think Frost went above a SSJ level, which made Goku excited to fight him in his Final Form, that's why he stopped playing around and scared Frost into transforming.

Frost could've tripled his power and gotten a significant boost to catch Goku's attention, it doesn't mean he's Super Saiyan level. If he was, his assault for blows would've damaged Goku but they don't, all they do is get Goku out of his "slow period" instead of damaging him.

This is all conjecture and speculation, but Freeza's boosts worked like this: 530 000 (form 1), slightly above a million (form 2), probably 2 million (form 3) and 3 million (form 4). If Frosts forms work in a similar leve, and I don't see why they couldn't, he can easily increase his power to get close to Base Goku, make good strength gains but still be inferior to Goku's maximum base strength.

Piccolo inferiority compared to Frost can't be disregarded, the manga insists on this point with Goku saying it, Piccolo saying and Frost also. Piccolo good showing against Frost doesn't contradict this.
He literally keeps Frost at arms length and never engages him head on, he still gets tired quicker and admits that he'll lose, he just won't go down without a struggle. Piccolo whole fight is softening up Frost, we can't call it an even fight.
Now this together with Base Goku toying with Assault Form, forces me to buff the Base Saiyans likely above Piccolo.
I think Assault Frost vs Piccolo would be a close fight, based on Frost saying he won't power down to get this over fast and Piccolo own request for Frost to go down a form.

I explained why I think Frosts forms, minus the fourth one, work closer to Freeza's than being significant strength increases. Of course, this same logic can get applied to a hypothetical Goku & Vegeta are above Piccolo type list as well. I never said Piccolo's inferiority can't be disregarded, I simply think it's exaggerated. If Piccolo was truly such worthless fodder, he'd have gotten taken out immediately. Especially since Frost says he wants to end the fight quickly, clearly showing us he's serious about trying to take Piccolo out but can't. To give an idea of what I mean, the fight is close to what happened with Goku vs Cell where one guy is clearly inferior to the other guy but is holding out with various tricks and manoeuvres to save himself. Like how Goku uses IT to escape a few close calls and get a good hit in.

Vegeta also feels the need to use Super Saiyan to take Frost out who's just gotten a beating from Goku and quite severely worn out by Piccolo, if Vegeta was more powerful than Piccolo, he wouldn't need SS to win this fight. His superior to Piccolo base form should've been more than enough to get the job done wih such a weakened opponent. You might say Vegeta wanted to waste this Freeza look-alike as a Super Saiyan for irony sake but I think a bigger fuck you is telling the Freeza look-alike he's not even worth using SS on.

The new material is adding to the abandonment of fixed multipliers of SSJ forms. That idea kinda goes against what the manga went for, post-Namek. Numbers become absent, characters type comments of Kaioken and Oozaru multipliers disappeared, mastery was brought up.

I think fans and guides, fell for the Kaioken trap. It was easy and comfortable, it removes any intangibles. Even in an out of universe perspective it's kinda silly, do people think Mr.Toriyama had a calculator in hand while drawing the manga? He said so himself, the numbers started getting too big. He might have done it, when they levels were at 1000 and so, after that it just gets ridiculous.
I don't see him having the dedication to be so perfectionist, to the point were it gives headaches, besides his forgetfulness and failing to write things down.

The moment Goku talked about mastery, I saw the word flexibility plastered in my manga. It's almost an explanation for children: Goku and Vegeta are both SSJ, Goku is stronger because he trained more and better at it aka mastery, easy peasy.
Hey, but that's just me.

I feel the same way after Namek but like with giving multipliers for SSRed and SSBlue, its a lot easier to break down things for lists like this as they're the only halfway concrete ways you can calculate strength anymore. All these other variables such as dexterity, durability,.... are big unknowns that have been shown to change from fight to fight and have no concrete foundation like multipliers do.

Toriyama definitely does not care about this minutea though. The fact he's okay with letting Toyotaro and the animators of the anime do the fights however they want is proof of this. I do wish he setup a concrete hierarchy so we could get a solid idea of where anyone stands in relation to one another. That changes at the drop of a hat in Supers anime constantly and its kind of annyoing.

[apex_pretador]

For the anime:

If Vegeta [Champa arc] is a 100. Where do this characters fit in?

Final Form Freeza:
Gotenks [Super Saiyan 3]:
First Form Freeza:
Mister Buu:
Gohan [Super Saiyan, RoF arc]:

(Base?)

Freeza Final form (suppressed) - 80
SS3 gotenks - 48
Freeza first form - 20
Buu = 15
Gohan = 17, ki drained = 13, enraged = 40
(I don't follow strict multipliers, especially not for gotenks)

[LightBing]

Frost could've tripled his power and gotten a significant boost to catch Goku's attention, it doesn't mean he's Super Saiyan level. If he was, his assault for blows would've damaged Goku but they don't, all they do is get Goku out of his "slow period" instead of damaging him.

This is all conjecture and speculation, but Freeza's boosts worked like this: 530 000 (form 1), slightly above a million (form 2), probably 2 million (form 3) and 3 million (form 4). If Frosts forms work in a similar leve, and I don't see why they couldn't, he can easily increase his power to get close to Base Goku, make good strength gains but still be inferior to Goku's maximum base strength.

We have to agree to disagree on this. I find it very unlikely for Goku to react the way he did towards such little power. Goku has no qualms to show disappointment and appreciation towards his opponents, his standards are high. To give an example: Dabra was thought of as not much initially, besides supposedly being a Cell level opponent.

I explained why I think Frosts forms, minus the fourth one, work closer to Freeza's than being significant strength increases. Of course, this same logic can get applied to a hypothetical Goku & Vegeta are above Piccolo type list as well. I never said Piccolo's inferiority can't be disregarded, I simply think it's exaggerated. If Piccolo was truly such worthless fodder, he'd have gotten taken out immediately. Especially since Frost says he wants to end the fight quickly, clearly showing us he's serious about trying to take Piccolo out but can't. To give an idea of what I mean, the fight is close to what happened with Goku vs Cell where one guy is clearly inferior to the other guy but is holding out with various tricks and manoeuvres to save himself. Like how Goku uses IT to escape a few close calls and get a good hit in.

Vegeta also feels the need to use Super Saiyan to take Frost out who's just gotten a beating from Goku and quite severely worn out by Piccolo, if Vegeta was more powerful than Piccolo, he wouldn't need SS to win this fight. His superior to Piccolo base form should've been more than enough to get the job done wih such a weakened opponent. You might say Vegeta wanted to waste this Freeza look-alike as a Super Saiyan for irony sake but I think a bigger fuck you is telling the Freeza look-alike he's not even worth using SS on.

The example you offer doesn't apply. Cell admitted to be holding back, so that he could have a fight, be entertained. He see this later when he powers up against Gohan, he could have smashed Goku.
Run away mode is fodder material, he didn't even try to get a hit in. I think this fight is unique in Dragon Ball, in that a decently weaker opponent is able to hold on for some time, simply because I can't think of any example. Altought the fight is like two pages, maybe it all lasted for a minute and Piccolo got tired quickly by using his power to the max. Actually this makes a lot of sense.

You're misjudging Vegeta, his own view of humiliation is a reflection of what he fears. He doesn't care about irony, he cares about showing his opponent his superiority and then making him feel his superiority.
He did the same against Semi-Perfect Cell, he had to go Super Vegeta when Super Saiyan would get the job done. He just wanted to pummel Cell.
Even with all his growth Vegeta is still an asshole if in the right situation.

I feel the same way after Namek but like with giving multipliers for SSRed and SSBlue, its a lot easier to break down things for lists like this as they're the only halfway concrete ways you can calculate strength anymore. All these other variables such as dexterity, durability,.... are big unknowns that have been shown to change from fight to fight and have no concrete foundation like multipliers do.

Toriyama definitely does not care about this minutea though. The fact he's okay with letting Toyotaro and the animators of the anime do the fights however they want is proof of this. I do wish he setup a concrete hierarchy so we could get a solid idea of where anyone stands in relation to one another. That changes at the drop of a hat in Supers anime constantly and its kind of annyoing.

That seems like such a cop-out to me. If you just gave the number to SSJG and didn't put the x100.000 part, I likely wouldn't have said anything. Because I'm not even questioning the number, it's the rule you attached to it.

Yeah regarding details, he appears to only concern himself with the jokes.
He still decides the outcome of the fight's and the main aspects of them. I can't prove this but Vegeta being 10% of Goku is common in both mediums, Piccolo being weaker than Frost but still struggling and more...
Unfortunately like you said the anime is an awful source for consistency.

Thank Kami-sama for the manga!

[ekrolo2]

The example you offer doesn't apply. Cell admitted to be holding back, so that he could have a fight, be entertained. He see this later when he powers up against Gohan, he could have smashed Goku.
Run away mode is fodder material, he didn't even try to get a hit in. I think this fight is unique in Dragon Ball, in that a decently weaker opponent is able to hold on for some time, simply because I can't think of any example. Altought the fight is like two pages, maybe it all lasted for a minute and Piccolo got tired quickly by using his power to the max. Actually this makes a lot of sense.

You're misjudging Vegeta, his own view of humiliation is a reflection of what he fears. He doesn't care about irony, he cares about showing his opponent his superiority and then making him feel his superiority.
He did the same against Semi-Perfect Cell, he had to go Super Vegeta when Super Saiyan would get the job done. He just wanted to pummel Cell.
Even with all his growth Vegeta is still an asshole if in the right situation.

Fodder material usually means being completely smashed the instant your opponent stops messing around with you which isn't the case with Frost vs Piccolo. Piccolo is clearly inferior to Frost and everyone is skeptical about his odds but Piccolo is still holding his own just by virtue of not getting taken out with a single hit. Distance doesn't matter when your opponents overall stats are bigger than you as evidenced by Piccolo vs Third Form Freeza. Piccolo thought he'd have the speed advantage and could dart around Freeza to win but Freeza no sells him on that end.

Frost tries multiple times to hit Piccolo without holding back but simply can't, he had to resort to using the poison because Piccolo was managing to wear him down too. But, like with Frost's transformations, it can really go both our ways honestly. My reason for leaning on the lower end of the spectrum is because I dislike bloating power levels so I try to keep them as low as possible without seeming improbable.

With Vegeta I apply a similar logic as I do with why I think Vegetto's base form isn't anywhere close to Boohan: if they were that tough, they'd just use base to win their fights. After all, Vegeta thoroughly humiliated Pui Pui without using SS but as you said, he needlessly powered up to trounce Cell when he didn't need to so it can go both ways. Although, with Cell I'd argue that he wanted to test his new form out in live combat, hence why he opted to use it with Cell.

That seems like such a cop-out to me. If you just gave the number to SSJG and didn't put the x100.000 part, I likely wouldn't have said anything. Because I'm not even questioning the number, it's the rule you attached to it.

Yeah regarding details, he appears to only concern himself with the jokes.
He still decides the outcome of the fight's and the main aspects of them. I can't prove this but Vegeta being 10% of Goku is common in both mediums, Piccolo being weaker than Frost but still struggling and more...
Unfortunately like you said the anime is an awful source for consistency.

Thank Kami-sama for the manga!

A cop out indeed but a necessary one for the world of power levels. Honestly, I'm not too pleased I even made one as its really ridiculous lol. On the subject of Toriyama, I really hope we see what passes for scripts with the new material some day. It'll probably just spark more debates and rage outs concerning Super but I'd really like to see just how much thought he put into stuff like how Goku overwhelms Hit,....

[ZombieVito]

So anyone have an idea how much did Goku and Vegeta improved from the tournament arc to the Commeson arc?

[Darkron2151]

So anyone have an idea how much did Goku and Vegeta improved from the tournament arc to the Commeson arc?

I don't think they improved at all TBH. Vegeta said that they were almost at their limit in strength progressions, and that was before 3 years of training in the ROSAT. If they did increase, it was very minimal. From an 80 to an 81.

[DBZ Macky]

I like your numbers do you have a DB BP list?

Nope, don't plan to make one either. Like the discussion has been saying, one's amount of ki wasn't a driving force in battles for most of the pre-Raditz material, so I don't see much of a point trying to attach numbers to any of it. These numbers were just created to demonstrate a point and a possible avenue for letting the official Piccolo-arc numbers work.

I really hope you'd make a DB BP List!
Not only are your "Powar Levuls" list more accurate than most IMO (It seems you've put a LOT of time on them), but you also have an awesome sense of humor

Another idea I came up with was if you could do a "Toei logic" BP list with Goku being weaker than Super Buu but also being stronger than Gohan at the same time

Obviously, It all up to you whether you want to make them or not. Besides, you haven't even updated your old DBZ list (The one whose link is in your sig.)

So anyone have an idea how much did Goku and Vegeta improved from the tournament arc to the Commeson arc?

I don't think they improved at all TBH. Vegeta said that they were almost at their limit in strength progressions, and that was before 3 years of training in the ROSAT. If they did increase, it was very minimal. From an 80 to an 81.

Well, Goku seems to be always one step ahead of Vegeta (Even without the Kaioken) so I'd say it goes like this:
Commeson Vegeta > Commeson Vegeta = Tournament Goku > Tournament Vegeta

Basically, not a game changing difference, but still a noticeable amount.

[apex_pretador]

He did the same against Semi-Perfect Cell, he had to go Super Vegeta when Super Saiyan would get the job done. He just wanted to pummel Cell.

With Vegeta I apply a similar logic as I do with why I think Vegetto's base form isn't anywhere close to Boohan: if they were that tough, they'd just use base to win their fights. After all, Vegeta thoroughly humiliated Pui Pui without using SS but as you said, he needlessly powered up to trounce Cell when he didn't need to so it can go both ways. Although, with Cell I'd argue that he wanted to test his new form out in live combat, hence why he opted to use it with Cell.

Considering the fact that Cell did not take SS vegeta as a serious threat till he powered up to Super vegeta form, I'm inclined to beileve that it isn't the case.
Also, if you want to bring out trunks's statement "He is already using that" , then remember that trunks is inexperienced and might have not comprehended the fact that cell was indeed suppressed, and it still doesn't necessarily put vegeta superior to cell, possibly around the same level as suppressed cell.

[ZombieVito]

So anyone have an idea how much did Goku and Vegeta improved from the tournament arc to the Commeson arc?

I don't think they improved at all TBH. Vegeta said that they were almost at their limit in strength progressions, and that was before 3 years of training in the ROSAT. If they did increase, it was very minimal. From an 80 to an 81.

But it was noticeable to Goku. It should be bigger than that no?

[ekrolo2]

He did the same against Semi-Perfect Cell, he had to go Super Vegeta when Super Saiyan would get the job done. He just wanted to pummel Cell.

With Vegeta I apply a similar logic as I do with why I think Vegetto's base form isn't anywhere close to Boohan: if they were that tough, they'd just use base to win their fights. After all, Vegeta thoroughly humiliated Pui Pui without using SS but as you said, he needlessly powered up to trounce Cell when he didn't need to so it can go both ways. Although, with Cell I'd argue that he wanted to test his new form out in live combat, hence why he opted to use it with Cell.

Considering the fact that Cell did not take SS vegeta as a serious threat till he powered up to Super vegeta form, I'm inclined to beileve that it isn't the case.
Also, if you want to bring out trunks's statement "He is already using that" , then remember that trunks is inexperienced and might have not comprehended the fact that cell was indeed suppressed, and it still doesn't necessarily put vegeta superior to cell, possibly around the same level as suppressed cell.

You bring up a good point about that whole scenario. We can't say Vegeta's suppressing himself because we know you can't do that with Super Saiyan until you master it.

[LightBing]

He did the same against Semi-Perfect Cell, he had to go Super Vegeta when Super Saiyan would get the job done. He just wanted to pummel Cell.

With Vegeta I apply a similar logic as I do with why I think Vegetto's base form isn't anywhere close to Boohan: if they were that tough, they'd just use base to win their fights. After all, Vegeta thoroughly humiliated Pui Pui without using SS but as you said, he needlessly powered up to trounce Cell when he didn't need to so it can go both ways. Although, with Cell I'd argue that he wanted to test his new form out in live combat, hence why he opted to use it with Cell.

Considering the fact that Cell did not take SS vegeta as a serious threat till he powered up to Super vegeta form, I'm inclined to beileve that it isn't the case.
Also, if you want to bring out trunks's statement "He is already using that" , then remember that trunks is inexperienced and might have not comprehended the fact that cell was indeed suppressed, and it still doesn't necessarily put vegeta superior to cell, possibly around the same level as suppressed cell.

The assumption that characters are inexperienced, lying, etc..., is one of the worst arguments possible. Because this type of lines exist solely for the author to provide information to the reader, or else everything would be a mess!
Imagine if you started doubting of everyone. Goku lied once about his power, does that give me an excuse to doubt every single line uttered by him?

So Trunks line, since it wasn't disproved later should be taken as a fact. It's possible Semi-Perfect after powering up is stronger than SSJ Vegeta, he wasn't before. It doesn't matter for my point, which is that Vegeta went above what he needed to destroy Cell.

ekrolo2 example with Pocus is different because he's just a random guy. Vegeta doesn't care about humiliating him.
With Frost and Cell, he preludes the whoop-ass and shows his distaste towards his opponent. His beef with Cell was that he claimed superiority and had Vegeta's cells in him, Vegeta didn't enjoy that.
With Frost, he purposely asked the referee to put him back in just to destroy him.

[ekrolo2]

The assumption that characters are inexperienced, lying, etc..., is one of the worst arguments possible. Because this type of lines exist solely for the author to provide information to the reader, or else everything would be a mess!
Imagine if you started doubting of everyone. Goku lied once about his power, does that give me an excuse to doubt every single line uttered by him?

So Trunks line, since it wasn't disproved later should be taken as a fact. It's possible Semi-Perfect after powering up is stronger than SSJ Vegeta, he wasn't before. It doesn't matter for my point, which is that Vegeta went above what he needed to destroy Cell.

ekrolo2 example with Pocus is different because he's just a random guy. Vegeta doesn't care about humiliating him.
With Frost and Cell, he preludes the whoop-ass and shows his distaste towards his opponent. His beef with Cell was that he claimed superiority and had Vegeta's cells in him, Vegeta didn't enjoy that.
With Frost, he purposely asked the referee to put him back in just to destroy him.

I think keeping in mind who the person delivering the information is important. if we simply took everything at complete face value, a whole bunch of stuff well before Namek wouldn't make sense. Trunks is shown as a rank amateur hence why some doubt should exist with whatever he says. It's also why I almost always doubt Vegeta concerning powers unless there's absolutely no real reason for him to lie.

Vegeta probably cares somewhat about humiliating the guy. He purposefully toys with him just to beat on him and then gets a kick when big advantage turns out to be completely useless in the end. But like I said before, I can see why Vegeta would use an unnecessary transformation to humiliate Frost but I also think he wouldn't have bothered with it if he didn't need it at all.

[LightBing]

The assumption that characters are inexperienced, lying, etc..., is one of the worst arguments possible. Because this type of lines exist solely for the author to provide information to the reader, or else everything would be a mess!
Imagine if you started doubting of everyone. Goku lied once about his power, does that give me an excuse to doubt every single line uttered by him?

So Trunks line, since it wasn't disproved later should be taken as a fact. It's possible Semi-Perfect after powering up is stronger than SSJ Vegeta, he wasn't before. It doesn't matter for my point, which is that Vegeta went above what he needed to destroy Cell.

ekrolo2 example with Pocus is different because he's just a random guy. Vegeta doesn't care about humiliating him.
With Frost and Cell, he preludes the whoop-ass and shows his distaste towards his opponent. His beef with Cell was that he claimed superiority and had Vegeta's cells in him, Vegeta didn't enjoy that.
With Frost, he purposely asked the referee to put him back in just to destroy him.

I think keeping in mind who the person delivering the information is important. if we simply took everything at complete face value, a whole bunch of stuff well before Namek wouldn't make sense. Trunks is shown as a rank amateur hence why some doubt should exist with whatever he says. It's also why I almost always doubt Vegeta concerning powers unless there's absolutely no real reason for him to lie.

Vegeta probably cares somewhat about humiliating the guy. He purposefully toys with him just to beat on him and then gets a kick when big advantage turns out to be completely useless in the end. But like I said before, I can see why Vegeta would use an unnecessary transformation to humiliate Frost but I also think he wouldn't have bothered with it if he didn't need it at all.

Could you give some examples? These types of lines usually either are disproved or not later in the story. This Trunks line in particular is followed by him saying how he surpassed Vegeta. While technically it's true, we are given confirmation why it's also not true and why Trunks is wrong. Referring of course to SSJ Grade III.
The point is that arguing that characters are to be doubted is very thin and fails to see the purpose of the line. If Trunks is that unreliable, why even bother with the line? Is it just so that we can call Trunks a liar or a silly kid?
It ultimately destroy any possibility of logical discussion, since we remove the author from the story and are stuck having an in-universe discussion which is flawed.

I'm starting to repeat myself, I just see Vegeta as making a clear difference between passive asshole and purposely asshole. Anyway, let's just agree to disagree.

[ekrolo2]

Could you give some examples? These types of lines usually either are disproved or not later in the story. This Trunks line in particular is followed by him saying how he surpassed Vegeta. While technically it's true, we are given confirmation why it's also not true and why Trunks is wrong. Referring of course to SSJ Grade III.
The point is that arguing that characters are to be doubted is very thin and fails to see the purpose of the line. If Trunks is that unreliable, why even bother with the line? Is it just so that we can call Trunks a liar or a silly kid?
It ultimately destroy any possibility of logical discussion, since we remove the author from the story and are stuck having an in-universe discussion which is flawed.

I'm starting to repeat myself, I just see Vegeta as making a clear difference between passive asshole and purposely asshole. Anyway, let's just agree to disagree.

I think the fact Trunks gets proven wrong is what shows you he's a silly kid who doesn't really know what he's doing yet. Or how any number of Vegeta's many boasts get proven wrong, showing in-character and thanks to the author that he's an arrogant fighter who tends to not know what he's talking about. Or rather, he would know if he wasn't up his own ass. These instances are what make Vegeta usually an unreliable source of power information whereas Goku is almost always right in his estimates.

[LightBing]

I think the fact Trunks gets proven wrong is what shows you he's a silly kid who doesn't really know what he's doing yet. Or how any number of Vegeta's many boasts get proven wrong, showing in-character and thanks to the author that he's an arrogant fighter who tends to not know what he's talking about. Or rather, he would know if he wasn't up his own ass. These instances are what make Vegeta usually an unreliable source of power information whereas Goku is almost always right in his estimates.

What you're talking about regarding Vegeta is a trait, whenever he's mad or is surprised his judgement fails. We can discern that rather easily in the story while it's happening and even those occasions fall in the category of disproved lines, since later we get the tidbit that Vegeta was just being Vegeta.
Trunks being a silly kid isn't a trait. He had this moment where he got blindsided by the power of the form and failed to see it's weakness. His possible other silly moment was when he challenged the Androids.
But he was stronger than Future Gohan and had trained for three years, he couldn't feel the Androids ki, so there was no way of knowing they had hold back so much against his master. Yeah, that's not silly.

So in this case Trunks made one mistake, now everything he says automatically makes him a noob? Who can't even read his father's ki who he spent a year in the same room and Semi-Perfect Cell who's right there?

Do you see how this has the potential to reduce a discussion to redundancy. Some lines deserve discussion, because of traits like Vegeta's but that's a few.

Take a current example, Beerus 10% line. Now that line sole objective was to inform the audience about power, the same way Trunks line did, both characters even though/talked to themselves, so there's not even any possibility to discuss the intention of their words.
What did some people suggested to make sense of the anime: "oh, Beerus likely lied". How does that make sense? See what I mean?

[apex_pretador]

The assumption that characters are inexperienced, lying, etc..., is one of the worst arguments possible. Because this type of lines exist solely for the author to provide information to the reader, or else everything would be a mess!
Imagine if you started doubting of everyone. Goku lied once about his power, does that give me an excuse to doubt every single line uttered by him?

So Trunks line, since it wasn't disproved later should be taken as a fact. It's possible Semi-Perfect after powering up is stronger than SSJ Vegeta, he wasn't before. It doesn't matter for my point, which is that Vegeta went above what he needed to destroy Cell.

ekrolo2 example with Pocus is different because he's just a random guy. Vegeta doesn't care about humiliating him.
With Frost and Cell, he preludes the whoop-ass and shows his distaste towards his opponent. His beef with Cell was that he claimed superiority and had Vegeta's cells in him, Vegeta didn't enjoy that.
With Frost, he purposely asked the referee to put him back in just to destroy him.

Even if you totally ignore my arguments about trunks saying it, that won't matter here, because it only suggests that cell is not too much for SS vegeta, not that vegeta can easily defeat him. I brought it out only because it compares Vegeta (current state) to cell (current state). However, vegeta's experience can tell him that cell is dangerous, that's why he is "transforming so soon". He can't risk dueling it out with him in his current state.


Anyways, what are you two arguing about regarding frost?


EDIT:

Take a current example, Beerus 10% line. Now that line sole objective was to inform the audience about power, the same way Trunks line did, both characters even though/talked to themselves, so there's not even any possibility to discuss the intention of their words.
What did some people suggested to make sense of the anime: "oh, Beerus likely lied". How does that make sense? See what I mean?

Beerus said he has NOT used 10% power in a long time, which means he has not used it, simple. I dont know why people take it as "beerus used 10% against vegeta".

[Kaboom]

I really hope you'd make a DB BP List!
Not only are your "Powar Levuls" list more accurate than most IMO (It seems you've put a LOT of time on them), but you also have an awesome sense of humor

Thanks, I'm flattered. But like I said, raw amount of ki wasn't the main or even a large factor in battles until the 22nd Budokai and King Piccolo era at the very earliest, so creating numbers for prior portions would be mostly futile. It was already difficult enough to make these numbers for Goku and King Piccolo work somehow.

But having given it some thought, the most I might do is craft a section for the 22nd Budokai onward, and just add it to the beginning of my series list. I really don't see any point in struggling to come up with numbers for anything earlier than that.

Another idea I came up with was if you could do a "Toei logic" BP list with Goku being weaker than Super Buu but also being stronger than Gohan at the same time

Now THAT sounds like fun. A comedy-focused "Toei's Majin Boo Arc" list, which includes all the self-contradictory Goku wanking, nonsensical filler, and stuff like that...

Obviously, It all up to you whether you want to make them or not. Besides, you haven't even updated your old DBZ list (The one whose link is in your sig.)

Well I haven't majorly updated it because I'm all-around pretty comfortable with what I've got, and have been for a long time. I actually make changes pretty often, but only small ones that nobody'd probably notice on their own. I actually just last night bumped up Boo-arc Goku and Vegeta a little bit, for example.

[DanielSSJ]

Thanks, I'm flattered. But like I said, raw amount of ki wasn't the main or even a large factor in battles until the 22nd Budokai and King Piccolo era at the very latest, so creating numbers for prior portions would be mostly futile. It was already difficult enough to make these numbers for Goku and King Piccolo work somehow.

But having giving it some thought, the most I might do is craft a section for the 22nd Budokai onward, and just add it to the beginning of my series list. I really don't see any point in struggling to come up with numbers for anything earlier than that.

I'd definitely like to see some more pre-Raditz numbers from you as well.Your Powar Levuls are great and a huge help to crafting my own list.

To be honest, I'd say the hardest part of doing any pre-Raditz list is the 22nd Budokai and Piccolo Daimao era. After you get that section squared away, the world is your oyster, since the only official number before that is 12-year-old Goku's power level of 10, which leaves a lot of room between it and that 180 number.

On to other business, does anyone have any numbers for Chiaotzu and Yajirobe for the start of the Saiyan arc?

[LightBing]

Beerus said he has NOT used 10% power in a long time, which means he has not used it, simple. I dont know why people take it as "beerus used 10% against vegeta".

The only reason he says it is because he used it right there against Vegeta.
This is from the fact checker thread:
Episode 8
Minute: 10
Context: After Beerus defeats angry Vegeta
Beerus: "It's been a long time since I've used 10% or so of my full strength. Well, this was more fun than with that Saiyan over at North Kaio's place."
Significance: So it seems Beerus used approximately 10% of his full strength to defeat angry Vegeta, and since it's "been a long time" since he's done that, presumably he used less power when defeating Super Saiyan 3 Goku back in episode 5. The word for 10% here is １割/ichi-wari, the same pattern used in BoG when Whis talks about Beerus fighting at 70% of his power, and SSG Goku talks about fighting at 80%. In contrast, Freeza always used the English word "percent" (so he describes his 100% full power as 100パーセント/hyaku-paasento). Some people have mistranslated １割/ichi-wari as only 1%. The term Beerus uses to describe his full power here is 本気を出す/honki wo dasu, meaning to make a serious effort or go all-out (in contrast, Freeza again uses the actual English words "full power": フルパワー/furu pawaa). So a more literal translation would be something like "It's been a long time since I've gone 10% or so all-out", but I thought that sounded both weird and more ambiguous than the phrase is in Japanese.

On to other business, does anyone have any numbers for Chiaotzu and Yajirobe for the start of the Saiyan arc?

Here's my old numbers, they shouldn't diverge much from the new list I'm creating:
Chiaotzu - 1.105
(Tenshinhan said he should've stayed back, which I gathered to mean he’s weaker than Raditz, therefore useless in this battle)
Yajirobe - 920
(Lazy training equals to smaller gains. We know his motivation wasn't much and even see him lazying around in the panel of their training.)