"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Goku probably left the senzu because they were all so cocky going in. Even when they get to the future and are about to go fight, you can tell they didn't think Black would be that strong. They were basically just waiting for Vegeta to finish pummeling Black so they could go home when the fight first started.

He didn't forget them because he was cocky. He forgot them because it was an accident and Krillin is usually the Senzu person. It's no different than a person forgetting their car keys.

[ekrolo2]

That's not a smile... you must be seeing things.

If you mean the very next scene where he's just standing and we see his full body, that's still not a smile and even if it was, it's too poorly drawn and small to accurately tell.

Well... there is, the fact that it only works 10% of the time, even the 2x version. They weren't that screwed that he'd risk so much.

Yeah it works only 10% of the time for an x2 increase so naturally he can power it up even more and not instantly die

[nite_jay]

Goku probably left the senzu because they were all so cocky going in. Even when they get to the future and are about to go fight, you can tell they didn't think Black would be that strong. They were basically just waiting for Vegeta to finish pummeling Black so they could go home when the fight first started.

He didn't forget them because he was cocky. He forgot them because it was an accident and Krillin is usually the Senzu person. It's no different than a person forgetting their car keys.

Him being cocky can still lead to him accidentally leaving them. When you're cocky, you're not worried about anything; so there leaves more room for you making mistakes and being forgetful.

[Doctor.]

Yeah it works only 10% of the time for an x2 increase so naturally he can power it up even more and not instantly die

Yeah but we're assuming he hasn't trained the Kaioken at all since the U6 tournament, since he spent a few days without any Ki and the following days he had Trunks come back.

[TheMikado]

That's not a smile... you must be seeing things.

If you mean the very next scene where he's just standing and we see his full body, that's still not a smile and even if it was, it's too poorly drawn and small to accurately tell.

Well... there is, the fact that it only works 10% of the time, even the 2x version. They weren't that screwed that he'd risk so much.

Yeah it works only 10% of the time for an x2 increase so naturally he can power it up even more and not instantly die

I'm confused, that's exactly what happens in the tournament, he was like whelp the single Kaioken didn't kill me, let me multiply it almost 10x more times

[Doctor.]

I'm confused, that's exactly what happens in the tournament, he was like whelp the single Kaioken didn't kill me, let me multiple it almost 10x more times

But he still has to bypass that 90% chance of dying to even activate the Kaioken in the first place... And after that he has to deal with the body pain whilst using the Kaioken and then he won't be able to move after deactivating it.

[TheMikado]

I'm confused, that's exactly what happens in the tournament, he was like whelp the single Kaioken didn't kill me, let me multiple it almost 10x more times

But he still has to bypass that 90% chance of dying to even activate the Kaioken in the first place...

This situation just seems like the more appropriate situation to pull that out, kinda like the spirit bomb. He doesn't use it unless the situation gets dire and only as a last resort.

[ekrolo2]

I'm confused, that's exactly what happens in the tournament, he was like whelp the single Kaioken didn't kill me, let me multiple it almost 10x more times

But he still has to bypass that 90% chance of dying to even activate the Kaioken in the first place... And after that he has to deal with the body pain whilst using the Kaioken and then he won't be able to move after deactivating it.

That's the part that rubs me the wrong way, bypassing that 90% is already a taxing thing so powering up even more shouldn't even be possible for him without dying or collapsing. The pain should be many, many times bigger for him to deal with every time his strength goes up.

It likes if in the Saiyan Saga King Kai told him never to use a times three increase then after he pulls it off, he can go up to times 10 without missing a beat.

[Doctor.]

I'm confused, that's exactly what happens in the tournament, he was like whelp the single Kaioken didn't kill me, let me multiple it almost 10x more times

But he still has to bypass that 90% chance of dying to even activate the Kaioken in the first place...

This situation just seems like the more appropriate situation to pull that out, kinda like the spirit bomb. He doesn't use it unless the situation gets dire and only as a last resort.

Goku would be risking his fighting ability to use the Kaioken again. Being able to fight means more to him than staying alive. It wasn't that kind of situation yet.

That's the part that rubs me the wrong way, bypassing that 90% is already a taxing thing so powering up even more shouldn't even be possible for him without dying or collapsing. The pain should be many, many times bigger for him to deal with every time his strength goes up.

It likes if in the Saiyan Saga King Kai told him never to use a times three increase then after he pulls it off, he can go up to times 10 without missing a beat.

Well, Namek arc Goku could use x10 comfortably and he still amped it up to x20 and could still move fairly well after that.

[ekrolo2]

Well, Namek arc Goku could use x10 comfortably and he still amped it up to x20 and could still move fairly well after that.

True but Goku's not stacking his KK on a transformation on Namek, though. In fact, the reason KK with Blue is as dangerous as it is for him now is precisely because he's putting it on something that's already increasing his base strength well past what it can normally do.

Honestly, they really should've just kept his KK as a two-fold increase at best to make it seem less forced. Hearing Goku scream times ten again is cool and all but with how they setup the vast chasm of difficulty he has to overcome just to double his power, it makes no sense for him not to drop dead.

[HeroR]

Him being cocky can still lead to him accidentally leaving them. When you're cocky, you're not worried about anything; so there leaves more room for you making mistakes and being forgetful.

No, that just means you forgot something. For example, Goku didn't think of getting Senzus for the androids attacking South City, yet he wasn't cocky about his chances of winning.

As for the Kaio-Ken, again, look how long it took for Goku to charge it. He wouldn't have the chance since Black and Zamasu wasn't going to stand around and let Goku charged up like Hit, who could have attacked and taking Goku out per Champa's order.

[nite_jay]

Him being cocky can still lead to him accidentally leaving them. When you're cocky, you're not worried about anything; so there leaves more room for you making mistakes and being forgetful.

No, that just means you forgot something. For example, Goku didn't think of getting Senzus for the androids attacking South City, yet he wasn't cocky about his chances of winning.

I never said that if you don't do something that automatically means you're cocky. I was saying that Goku and the gang's overall demeanor before and during the first parts of the fight made them come off as cocky. My impression of them acting so nonchalant then led me to say that being cocky can lead to people forgetting things/making easy mistakes; which is why my first post was basically saying that him being overconfident could have been a factor in why he left the senzu.

[fadeddreams5]

I don't get it. Black is clearly misguided, so why doesn't anyone just sit him down and have a talk?

I'm sure a Naruto-style speech and a friend would change him for the better. He's basically Shadow the Hedgehog before Amy chatted with him.

But no... too many meat heads in this series.

[ryou766]

I don't get it. Black is clearly misguided, so why doesn't anyone just sit him down and have a talk?

I'm sure a Naruto-style speech and a friend would change him for the better. He's basically Shadow the Hedgehog before Amy chatted with him.

But no... too many meat heads in this series.

If Naruto was here, I'm sure a Talk-No-Jutsu could turn Black to a new leaf.

[ekrolo2]

I don't get it. Black is clearly misguided, so why doesn't anyone just sit him down and have a talk?

I'm sure a Naruto-style speech and a friend would change him for the better. He's basically Shadow the Hedgehog before Amy chatted with him.

But no... too many meat heads in this series.

Is he misguided? We really do just use knowledge to think up new ways to kill one another and break everything we can while we're doing it. It's certainly not a healthy way to look at the world (universe?) but he's not exactly wrong about it. Especially for the DB world where you've got guys like Freeza running around proving his point and the Gods do nothing about it.

[Doctor.]

I don't get it. Black is clearly misguided, so why doesn't anyone just sit him down and have a talk?

I'm sure a Naruto-style speech and a friend would change him for the better. He's basically Shadow the Hedgehog before Amy chatted with him.

But no... too many meat heads in this series.

Is he misguided? We really do just use knowledge to think up new ways to kill one another and break everything we can while we're doing it. It's certainly not a healthy way to look at the world (universe?) but he's not exactly wrong about it. Especially for the DB world where you've got guys like Freeza running around proving his point and the Gods do nothing about it.

It's an extremist way of viewing things. The point of the arc is that extremist views are always bad.

[HeroR]

It's an extremist way of viewing things. The point of the arc is that extremist views are always bad.

Petty much. There is a reason why there are tropes called http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... dExtremist and http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ghtTemplar.

[ekrolo2]

It's an extremist way of viewing things. The point of the arc is that extremist views are always bad.

Only if you're designated as the bad guy, as long as you're the good guy, the universe will forgive you for it in DB

Lots of characters take their extremist views of the world far and cause needless destruction but the good guys are always forgiven because they don't kick puppies in-between threatening the universe.

[Doctor.]

It's an extremist way of viewing things. The point of the arc is that extremist views are always bad.

Only if you're designated as the bad guy, as long as you're the good guy, the universe will forgive you for it in DB

Lots of characters take their extremist views of the world far and cause needless destruction but the good guys are always forgiven because they don't kick puppies in-between threatening the universe.

The "extremist" way of being a good guy wouldn't be what our good guys do, though, they're very morally gray. The extremist opposite of the bad guys would be going around the universe acting like a superhero and using the dragon balls to wish for everyone in the universe to be happy or something like that.

[ekrolo2]

It's an extremist way of viewing things. The point of the arc is that extremist views are always bad.

Only if you're designated as the bad guy, as long as you're the good guy, the universe will forgive you for it in DB

Lots of characters take their extremist views of the world far and cause needless destruction but the good guys are always forgiven because they don't kick puppies in-between threatening the universe.

The "extremist" way of being a good guy wouldn't be what our good guys do, though, they're very morally gray. The extremist opposite of what the bad guys would be going around the universe acting like a superhero and using the dragon balls to wish for everyone in the universe to be happy or something like that.

The "good guys" are extremist in their own way by how they selfishly and stupidly cling to caring more about their fighting boners at the cost of everything else and they've repeatedly gotten themselves and other people killed because of it. No matter how many times its happened, its always the same story. A powerful adversary comes, the "good guys" let his plans advance farther than they should and then a whole bunch of terrible things happen. The F material even highlights this and no one learns anything from it. Yet, because say Piccolo doesn't go around kicking puppies in his off time like Freeza or Cell, that means the universe won't bite him in the ass when it really should.

Pretty much the only "good guys" who I'd call that is Future Trunks for wanting to end threats before they can happen, even if he isn't capable of doing so. A great example of this is how Goku & company handle the Majin Boo situation in comparison to Trunks. The main cast clings to their own worldview of "mah fighting boner needs something!" and everything absurdly escalates. What does Trunks do? Kill every single person in Bobidi's little group and Majin Boo never hatches.

Black's motivation at least has a grander scale to it and comes from a place you can understand. I don't understand the kind of person who can let his home planet get destroyed twice just because he wants a good fight. The fact Goku and company get away with such stuff at all and get called "good guys" at all shows the DB world is totally fucked when it comes to morality.