How does Golden Frieza fare off against fighters in GT

[TheMikado]

No, what I'm saying is no one who actually has a respectable conversation about this uses feats. You're alone in this. I'm merely humoring you by showing you why no one gives feats any serious consideration. Period.

If you insist on using feats then yes you will come to that conclusion. But no one does so you are basically talking to yourself in a corner and I'm trying to be polite and make you feel less lonely in your way of thinking. I don't believe for a second feats in Dragonball trump explicit statements of power as exposition because that's literally what they are there for. Using a scene that's primarily for dramatic emphasis to scale the entirety of the rest of the series is a practice that no one subscribes to since the original Dragonball series.

Again you are alone in your thinking of using feats as the primary source for character power comparisons.

[Saiyan007]

The OP was clearly referring to the movie version of Golden Freeza, given that neither the anime nor the manga version of Dragon Ball Super was yet to be released when this thread was created, so i don't know why people here are talking about Super's Freeza. I don't understand why this thread (which was inactive for more than a year) was revived, not only that bumping an old topic is not allowed, but you can also just create a new topic or you can just ask the question in the Versus Thread.

Movie Golden Freeza ? Depends on one's made-up power levels, all we know about GT characters compared to Z characters are guys like Super #17, Baby, etc are stronger than Super Vegetto, but even then Beerus and Super Saiyan God Goku was implied to be leagues above Vegetto as well, so it's up to one's opinion on how well can Freeza fare against GT fighters. If you're taking things like video games and some other things into account, then Freeza might be inferior to guys like Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta.

My two cents about Super's Freeza. In both anime and manga version, it was shown that the fight between Super Saiyan God Goku and Beerus was wrecking the entire Universe, which is something GT characters haven't able to do even remotely close. Golden Freeza is stronger than both of them, so it's obvious that he can do the same and can kill any GT characters with ease if he want.

You were saying.....

[TheMikado]

I apologize, I'll get two chairs so you two can have the discussion together while the rest of us move on with the conversation.

[Saiyan007]

I apologize, I'll get two chairs so you two can have the discussion together while the rest of us move on with the conversation.

I can literally bring up hundreds of people using feats in favor of Super over GT all over the Internet.People using feats to determine who would win is a very common thing.

But I do accept your concession.

[TheMikado]

This thread alone has more then enough people to nullify that. Also finding 100s of people on the internet comment made me think of this.

[Saiyan007]

This thread alone has more then enough people to nullify that. Also finding 100s of people on the internet comment made me think of this.

Most of this thread was even before Super

[TheMikado]

I'm not sure why that matters, we've only completed one additional arc since then. The question still applies.

Look I'll make this quick and easy. Are you trying say that feats always Trump exposition and because the GT characters do not exhibit that feat, that they do not have the ability to produce that feat? Is that the logic you are using for power scaling? Based solely on not seeing the feat that they do not have the ability?

[Saiyan007]

Are you trying say that feats always Trump exposition

If the exposition is coming from an author they could retcon the feat

and because the GT characters do not exhibit that feat, that they do not have the ability to produce that feat?

Yeah why would I say Dragon Ball characters can bench the weight of an omniverse when they've never shown the ability or hinted they could do something like that?

Is that the logic you are using for power scaling? Based solely on not seeing the feat that they do not have the ability?

It's the lack of feats and statements that show they don't compare the burden of proof is on you to say they can do the things they've never shown the ability to do.

[TheMikado]

Great, so that clearly means all Super characters after BOG are not SSG tier as it's never stated or shown they are and they have no feats proving it. Only SSG Goku and Beerus have the feat to prove they are at that level.

[Saiyan007]

Great, so that clearly means all Super characters after BOG are not SSG tier as it's never stated or shown they are and they have no feats proving it. Only SSG Goku and Beerus have the feat to prove they are at that level.

Except you ignored the other part of my post where I point out statements factor in as well

It's stated that SSGSS Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku by the narrator

It's feats and statements lol

[TheMikado]

Great, so that clearly means all Super characters after BOG are not SSG tier as it's never stated or shown they are and they have no feats proving it. Only SSG Goku and Beerus have the feat to prove they are at that level.

Except you ignored the other part of post where I point out statements factor in as well

It's stated that SSGSS Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku by the narrator

It's feats and statements lol

And you're forgetting that both GT base Goku and post BoG base Goku are supposedly comparable in strength based on their exposition of strength comparisons. Hence the same methods you use to qualify the rest of Supers cast (associative comparison) would also apply to GTs cast making them also capable but not displaying the feat like Future Trunks or the entire cast of Universe 7.

Basically by your own logic which you apply to Super, GT cast is capable but does not display the universe feat.

[Saiyan007]

And you're forgetting that both GT base Goku and post BoG base Goku are supposedly comparable in strength based on their exposition of strength comparisons.

Says who?

Regardless that's thier base I'm talking about thier God forms

You know the ones that out class GT

Hence the same methods you use to qualify the rest of Supers cast (associative comparison) would also apply to GTs cast making them also capable but not displaying the feat like Future Trunks or the entire cast of Universe 7. [

Difference is Trunks has showings fighting God tiers who have the feats and statements that say how powerful they are.


GT doesn't have the feats or statements.The best they have is Omega Shenron negative energy going to destroy the universe which is a chain reaction.

Basically by your own logic which you apply to Super, GT cast is capable but does not display the universe feat.

I have no idea how you jumped to that conclusion because that is not what I'm saying at allm

[TheMikado]

Look it's late and I really don't feel like continuing this , but I have no idea where you stand on this. Many people following the anime believe SSJ Goku is now as strong or stronger than SSG. Meaning just by turning SSJ both GT and Super Goku would meet the power threshold being at or above SSG and perform the subsequent feats. I have no idea if you believe in the two base theory or whatever so it's going to depend on that as well.

Without having more details on what you believe and follow of Super it's impossible to discuss specifics of power levels because the forms and levels are wildly different between the manga and anime. Do you think Goku has God base and a regular base, or his one base is just super strong and close to SSG levels?

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Great, so that clearly means all Super characters after BOG are not SSG tier as it's never stated or shown they are and they have no feats proving it. Only SSG Goku and Beerus have the feat to prove they are at that level.

Except you ignored the other part of my post where I point out statements factor in as well

It's stated that SSGSS Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku by the narrator

It's feats and statements lol

In the manga Beerus said SSG>ssgss

[Perfectionist-Cell]

So you use feats on a series with no feats?

Dragon Ball has plenty of feats all throughout the series....

Again blame the writers for GT for b it displaying their characters in a powerful way.

Super makes it crystal clear on numerous times on how powerful these guys are

Power scaling> Feats in this situation.

You need feats to power scale in the first place.

If you want to use that universal feat then Whis is only universal as well since he said he could not stop a universal attack.

That can easily be explained as Whis not wanting to reveal how power he is to the rest of the audience

You do realize the narrator just spouts whatever nonsense goes on in the series right?

Narrator breaks the 4th wall and knows more than any character excluding the authors.He's mainly there for exposition.

If they were truly universal why haven't they shown any feat close to that ever since? Don't give me that they can control there ki bull crap because Buutenks was gonna destroy earth and had his blast already charged. Then Goku Destructo Disc him and his blast flies off in the background and nothing was destroyed.

It's them being masters of controlling thier ki vegeta suicide explosion only made a crater in the ground but the explosion has the potency behind it to kill Cell who can survive planet explosions with ease.It's a common thing all throughout dragon Ball.

GT Goku> Majin Buu (In General) Goku has encountered every Buu except Evil Buu and he called every Buu ''Majin Buu''.

GT Goku has no universal feats so saying he's stronger than majin buu ultimately means nothing .


GT Goku can't destroy a universe had never been stated to be able to destroy one so that means he loses

So Trunks beat Frieza and the Android are stronger than Trunks this means the Androids are stronger than Frieza and Trunks. Just power scaled with no feats needed.

What is so impressive about the narrator breaking the fourth wall? All he does is talk about the previous episode. If the previous episode was full of lies and no dbz cast knew it was lies he would tell us how the last episode was full of lies and no dbz character knew it was.

So Vegeta>> Buutenks? A man who has 3 people who can control there ki plus himself still have less ability than Vegeta in controlling there ki. I seriously hope you are joking.

GT has no feat so everyone is considered the whole DBGT cast not powerful and not universal? Goku isn't universal since it took more than 1 hit to destroy the universe period.

If dbz characters could really control their ki then how come when their blast miss a target something in the background gets destroyed? Shouldn't it just fade off or something or not damage anything within the background since it was not meant for anything in the background?

Beerus is universal because he claimed the little ball of energy he nullified was universal. There is no proof it was but lets believe it is because we can.

Are we going to forget Goku's Universal spirit bomb?

Cell could survive a planet explosion? Why did his body get destroyed then?

[Khin]

In the manga Beerus said SSG>ssgss

If you're referring to the battle between Super Saiyan God Goku fought Hit in the manga, It was explained that the only reason why Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta was because the latter lost 90% of his power due to turning Blue twice.

[Lord Frieza]

Well one problem with comparing series is that of progression. GT for its part has the characters progress natural using methods seen befor in the series, transformation and training for our heroes and power stealing for villian

Super on the other hand brings in a lot of new methods for out heroes to get stronger, primarily god power which is by definitions supernatural. This is a power that don't conform to any of the pre-existing rules in the series. Hell stander SSG allowed Goku to fight someone who Vegito would not stand a chance against. That implies a ridicules power increase that dwarfs anything seen before.

Both series do struggle in the area of actual feats but their are some, the aforementioned Goku and Beerus clash statements and we also have Oozaru Baby being unable to destroy earth with a signature attack, which even if uncharged should have been easily withing his power.

Also unlike the GT villain, Super's villains also progress in ways that seem almost ridiculous. Baby and S17 steal other power to become so ridiculously strong while Super Frieza was able to achieve in a matter of months what has taken Goku and Vegeta years. Hit is able to improve his power and skills in seconds and Black was able to overcome our heroes in a matter of days! In many ways Supers villains almost seem to be genre savvy and decided to beat the heroes at their own game by training hard.

And this is kind of what I'm getting at, GT was made hot on the heels of Dragon Ball and while it did throw a few new things in and had some good ideas, it never really got out from under its shadow. Most of what GT dose stays within the Z era formula.

Super on the other hand has been made many years later, in a world that has long since passed Dragon Ball, were new ideas ad concepts have grown in its wake. Super is vary aware of its passed and is trying to do something different, for all the good and bad that entails. Super dose not conform to the old rules of dragon ball (which I don't find strange as DB's rules literally change from saga to saga) and you can't quantify many of Super characters and powers such as Beerus, god ki, SSG, Frieza's true potential, SSB, HIt or Goku Black with our old, out dated ideas, rules, power scaling, power levels and limitations.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

In the manga Beerus said SSG>ssgss

If you're referring to the battle between Super Saiyan God Goku fought Hit in the manga, It was explained that the only reason why Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta was because the latter lost 90% of his power due to turning Blue twice.

Still stronger.

[TheMikado]

In the manga Beerus said SSG>ssgss

If you're referring to the battle between Super Saiyan God Goku fought Hit in the manga, It was explained that the only reason why Super Saiyan God Goku was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta was because the latter lost 90% of his power due to turning Blue twice.

I think that the purpose was to show that using feats as a primary measure of strength, particularly in isolation is not an accurate gauge of power. Particularly if we consider things like both Roshi and Piccolo have blown up the moon but Gohan hasn't so so it's stating they are obviously stronger because Gohan hasn't shown any feat close to that scale is a fallacy.

Basically feats can be useful for clarity but exposition is the primary means of conveying strength comparisons.
However, as Lord Beerus says Super breaks he Z formula so it's nearly impossible to have a one to one comparison.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Well one problem with comparing series is that of progression. GT for its part has the characters progress natural using methods seen befor in the series, transformation and training for our heroes and power stealing for villian

Super on the other hand brings in a lot of new methods for out heroes to get stronger, primarily god power which is by definitions supernatural. This is a power that don't conform to any of the pre-existing rules in the series. Hell stander SSG allowed Goku to fight someone who Vegito would not stand a chance against. That implies a ridicules power increase that dwarfs anything seen before.

Both series do struggle in the area of actual feats but their are some, the aforementioned Goku and Beerus clash statements and we also have Oozaru Baby being unable to destroy earth with a signature attack, which even if uncharged should have been easily withing his power.

Also unlike the GT villain, Super's villains also progress in ways that seem almost ridiculous. Baby and S17 steal other power to become so ridiculously strong while Super Frieza was able to achieve in a matter of months what has taken Goku and Vegeta years. Hit is able to improve his power and skills in seconds and Black was able to overcome our heroes in a matter of days! In many ways Supers villains almost seem to be genre savvy and decided to beat the heroes at their own game by training hard.

And this is kind of what I'm getting at, GT was made hot on the heels of Dragon Ball and while it did throw a few new things in and had some good ideas, it never really got out from under its shadow. Most of what GT dose stays within the Z era formula.

Super on the other hand has been made many years later, in a world that has long since passed Dragon Ball, were new ideas ad concepts have grown in its wake. Super is vary aware of its passed and is trying to do something different, for all the good and bad that entails. Super dose not conform to the old rules of dragon ball (which I don't find strange as DB's rules literally change from saga to saga) and you can't quantify many of Super characters and powers such as Beerus, god ki, SSG, Frieza's true potential, SSB, HIt or Goku Black with our old, out dated ideas, rules, power scaling, power levels and limitations.

So it's ok for Black to go from ssj2 to ssjb but it's not fair for Super 17 to do the same? Black didn't train for his power. It's ok for Frieza to jump from less than ssj to beyond ssjb but it is not ok for Baby to do the same? It is ok for dragon ball super characters to due the most ridiculous things just like GT but you accept what super does and not GT?

Goku said ''I think'' he thinks Vegito could not beat Beerus. This is idea was not tested so i don't know why people say it is fact. Beerus would beat Super Vegito is a fact but Vegito could go ssj2 or 3 for the matter just like Gotenks. Baby couldn't destroy earth yet Goku's x10 kamehameha on Hit didn't destroy a thing neither. Heck Black still has not destroyed earth yet as we type to each other

You say we can't use this so called ''formula'' because it's a new idea? Rubbish. If GT was made hot on wheels then super was made from leftover junk because it is just as bad.