What is the exact multiplier of Super Saiyan 4?

[TheMikado]

Ok, I see the problem with the logic. It presumes the baby boost multiples with the SSJ increase. My theory only applies to the Saiyan body and thus the SSJ multipliers only apply to the Saiyans body with the parasite power being additive to that rather than multiplying as well.

An unproven theory can't really be said to have a "problem" if the only thing that disproves it is another unproven theory.

That's fine but the theory I've given makes more consistent sense through all of baby's encounters

[ekrolo2]

There was more, but this was years ago, and I can't be bothered searching through dozens of pages of the power levels thread

Random should be tagged by this, so he can go over all of it if he wants to later.

Wow, that makes a lot sense actually. Well, sense for GT anyway

[dbgtFO]

Oh cool, @Kamiccolo9, I didn't know he had it tie into the Vegetto x Goku equation, as well
Props for that!

[ekrolo2]

His numbers also work very well with the idea of Post-ROSAT Base Gotenks being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Goku. This severely bloats the power levels of the Boo Saga to a degree I don't particularly like but it actually makes... sense.... for GT.... huh....

[Kamiccolo9]

His numbers also work very well with the idea of Post-ROSAT Base Gotenks being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Goku. This severely bloats the power levels of the Boo Saga to a degree I don't particularly like but it actually makes... sense.... for GT.... huh....

The Buu Arc powers are already crazy bloated in the anime, what with Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks (based on him beating up the copy inside Buu, and with said copy being stated to be as strong as the original,) all the statements putting Pure Buu as the strongest form of Buu (some of which were said when Goku was fighting him as a SSJ2), and with Goku's performance inside Buu's body. And GT obviously follows the anime, so....

[ekrolo2]

His numbers also work very well with the idea of Post-ROSAT Base Gotenks being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Goku. This severely bloats the power levels of the Boo Saga to a degree I don't particularly like but it actually makes... sense.... for GT.... huh....

The Buu Arc powers are already crazy bloated in the anime, what with Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks (based on him beating up the copy inside Buu, and with said copy being stated to be as strong as the original,) all the statements putting Pure Buu as the strongest form of Buu (some of which were said when Goku was fighting him as a SSJ2), and with Goku's performance inside Buu's body. And GT obviously follows the anime, so....

It definitely works with the anime on that front but even with the manga if you think Piccolo's amazement at Base Gotenks' power in the ROSAT is any indication. I personally don't put him anywhere in the spitting distance of even Piccolo's max power in Base alone but there are some who do think he's THAT much stronger just from the ROSAT.

[Kamiccolo9]

His numbers also work very well with the idea of Post-ROSAT Base Gotenks being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 Goku. This severely bloats the power levels of the Boo Saga to a degree I don't particularly like but it actually makes... sense.... for GT.... huh....

The Buu Arc powers are already crazy bloated in the anime, what with Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks (based on him beating up the copy inside Buu, and with said copy being stated to be as strong as the original,) all the statements putting Pure Buu as the strongest form of Buu (some of which were said when Goku was fighting him as a SSJ2), and with Goku's performance inside Buu's body. And GT obviously follows the anime, so....

It definitely works with the anime on that front but even with the manga if you think Piccolo's amazement at Base Gotenks' power in the ROSAT is any indication. I personally don't put him anywhere in the spitting distance of even Piccolo's max power in Base alone but there are some who do think he's THAT much stronger just from the ROSAT.

Sure, I guess. I kinda like the idea of Gotenks being that strong just because it makes people hyperventilate over it in rage

God, this conversation is making me feel dirty lol. I've reached my quota for the use of the word "multiplier" for the month.

[ekrolo2]

Sure, I guess. I kinda like the idea of Gotenks being that strong just because it makes people hyperventilate over it in rage God, this conversation is making me feel dirty lol. I've reached my quota for the use of the word "multiplier" for the month.

Not as much as saying Gohan & Gotenks are stronger than Goku at the end does

[dbgtFO]

I am one of those in the "base Gotenks is Super strong" camp. However it is one of the great annoyances, that he doesn't get to definitely prove his power, so people couldn't use the "gag statements" logic etc.
That also goes for the general Majin Buu debate.

[Kamiccolo9]

Sure, I guess. I kinda like the idea of Gotenks being that strong just because it makes people hyperventilate over it in rage God, this conversation is making me feel dirty lol. I've reached my quota for the use of the word "multiplier" for the month.

Not as much as saying Gohan & Gotenks are stronger than Goku at the end does

Bah, I'm just waiting for that stupid "They're gonna destroy the universe" thing to be revealed as Kaioshin making a joke. That'll really piss off the power level people.

[ekrolo2]

I am one of those in the "base Gotenks is Super strong" camp. However it is one of the great annoyances, that he doesn't get to definitely prove his power, so people couldn't use the "gag statements" logic etc.
That also goes for the general Majin Buu debate.

The Gotenks debate at least has the gag angle to create a debate around. The Goku being inferior to the half-breeds usually boils down to either "the anime said this so its true!" or "Goku is DUR GR3T3ZR CARACTUR 3VAR SO HEZ #1! 4 SUR!"

Bah, I'm just waiting for that stupid "They're gonna destroy the universe" thing to be revealed as Kaioshin making a joke. That'll really piss off the power level people.

What universe thing? That sounds as preposterous as SS suddenly being unmasterable and Blue being combinable with KK

[theherodjl]

Everyone uses that scene completely incorrectly.
Gohan was baby possessed which is a power boost itself and different from being a baby minion. It's the same reason baby Goten beat down Gohan or why baby SSJ2 Vegeta beats SSJ3 Goku. I swear everytime I hear someone say that I always wonder if they actually watched GT or just saw a clip out of context.

Baby didn't make any noticeable increase in power while possessing Goten, the fight between Gohan & Goten was only one-sided because Gohan chose to fight in base while Baby made use of SSJ Goten. Once Gohan became a SSJ then Baby ditched Goten's body and took over Gohan's which implies Gohan was still stronger even with this supposed power boost.
It's not until Baby possesses Vegeta that he becomes far more powerful but that might have more to do with Vegeta's much greater potential than anything, Vegeta as a SSJ4 is about equal to limit-surpassed SSJ4 Goku after all.

[TheMikado]

Everyone uses that scene completely incorrectly.
Gohan was baby possessed which is a power boost itself and different from being a baby minion. It's the same reason baby Goten beat down Gohan or why baby SSJ2 Vegeta beats SSJ3 Goku. I swear everytime I hear someone say that I always wonder if they actually watched GT or just saw a clip out of context.

Baby didn't make any noticeable increase in power while possessing Goten, the fight between Gohan & Goten was only one-sided because Gohan chose to fight in base while Baby made use of SSJ Goten. Once Gohan became a SSJ then Baby ditched Goten's body and took over Gohan's which implies Gohan was still stronger even with this supposed power boost.
It's not until Baby possesses Vegeta that he becomes far more powerful but that might have more to do with Vegeta's much greater potential than anything, Vegeta as a SSJ4 is about equal to limit-surpassed SSJ4 Goku after all.

Well no, SSJ Goten shouldn't be anywhere near Ultimate Gohan. That alone shows even Goten got a pretty large power boost.

[theherodjl]

Well no, SSJ Goten shouldn't be anywhere near Ultimate Gohan. That alone shows even Goten got a pretty large power boost.

Baby-Possessed SSJ Goten ain't anywhere close to Ultimate Gohan, much like in DB Super Gohan lost that state and reverted to using SSJ. It would be redundant if he could use SSJ on top of Ultimate if going Ultimate and SSJ is apparently the same transformation process.

[Friezacooler]

Well no, SSJ Goten shouldn't be anywhere near Ultimate Gohan. That alone shows even Goten got a pretty large power boost.

Baby-Possessed SSJ Goten ain't anywhere close to Ultimate Gohan, much like in DB Super Gohan lost that state and reverted to using SSJ. It would be redundant if he could use SSJ on top of Ultimate if going Ultimate and SSJ is apparently the same transformation process.

except Gohan didn't lose his ultimate form, it was stated he trained.

[theherodjl]

except Gohan didn't lose his ultimate form, it was stated he trained.

Here's what the Perfect Files states.

Son Gohan
He transformed when fighting with Goten after Goten had been taken over by Baby!! It seems that even in times of peace, he hasn’t neglected his training. The differences in Gohan’s facial expressions before and after transforming are the most intense out of any warrior!!

It does say that he trained...but not that he kept the Ultimate power-up.
Like I said it would be kinda redundant to go SSJ when it is the same process, Gohan may be a bit of a fighting prodigy himself but he's no Goku or Vegeta when it comes to figuring out the next level.