Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

[TheUltimateNinja]

However, the SEG Guidebooks, which were released a decade later, say Super Saiyan 3 is a 4x boost.
Also, GT Perfect Files word on GT is equivalent to Toriyama's word on Z, whereas the Daizenshuu guidebooks, even though somewhat reliable, don't hold such regard.

My point is the whole "Draws hidden power out to its limits" thing is just meaningless fluff and should be disregarded in favor of hard numbers.

Baseless assumption. Your opinion is not higher than what GT Perfect Files tells us.

If Super Saiyan 4 is truly simply drawing out hidden power, then it would be weak as hell since Goku's so called "potential" isn't much higher than his SSJ3 so SSJ4 would be basically useless and he would still easily get thrashed by Baby Vegeta.

[TheMikado]

However, the SEG Guidebooks, which were released a decade later, say Super Saiyan 3 is a 4x boost.
Also, GT Perfect Files word on GT is equivalent to Toriyama's word on Z, whereas the Daizenshuu guidebooks, even though somewhat reliable, don't hold such regard.

My point is the whole "Draws hidden power out to its limits" thing is just meaningless fluff and should be disregarded in favor of hard numbers.

Baseless assumption. Your opinion is not higher than what GT Perfect Files tells us.

It's not baseless. We've literally had the same thing said of every transformation. As far as the 10x not meaning anything it means a lot. It confirms the already suspected multiplier. I'm not sure why you want to ignore a hard, established number to use the vaguest estimate possible of a forms power. It shows consistency and I'm not sure how much clear it could be spelt out?

The 10x is literally on top of whatever power level the Saiyan is at as it stacks. It always has.

[TheUltimateNinja]

My point is the whole "Draws hidden power out to its limits" thing is just meaningless fluff and should be disregarded in favor of hard numbers.

Baseless assumption. Your opinion is not higher than what GT Perfect Files tells us.

It's not baseless. We've literally had the same thing said of every transformation. As far as the 10x not meaning anything it means a lot. It confirms the already suspected multiplier. I'm not sure why you want to ignore a hard, established number to use the vaguest estimate possible of a forms power. It shows consistency and I'm not sure how much clear it could be spelt out?

The 10x is literally on top of whatever power level the Saiyan is at as it stacks. It always has.

To add to your argument, every form before SSJ4 has been a multiplier. SSJ is 50x base, SSJ2 is 2x that, and SSJ3 is 4x.
So it would be really inconsistent if at SSJ4 it suddenly stopped being a multiplier and became a vague abstract of power.

[Anime Kitten]

To add to your argument, every form before SSJ4 has been a multiplier. SSJ is 50x base, SSJ2 is 2x that, and SSJ3 is 4x.
So it would be really inconsistent if at SSJ4 it suddenly stopped being a multiplier and became a vague abstract of power.

I thought most people believed that SSJ4 is a different line from the normal SSJ one.

[TheUltimateNinja]

To add to your argument, every form before SSJ4 has been a multiplier. SSJ is 50x base, SSJ2 is 2x that, and SSJ3 is 4x.
So it would be really inconsistent if at SSJ4 it suddenly stopped being a multiplier and became a vague abstract of power.

I thought most people believed that SSJ4 is a different line from the normal SSJ one.

It's clearly still in the SSJ line of progression, though. It's achieved by mastering SSJ in the Oozaru state, so logically one would assume it would be the same power or higher than an SSJ Oozaru.

[TheMikado]

To add to your argument, every form before SSJ4 has been a multiplier. SSJ is 50x base, SSJ2 is 2x that, and SSJ3 is 4x.
So it would be really inconsistent if at SSJ4 it suddenly stopped being a multiplier and became a vague abstract of power.

I thought most people believed that SSJ4 is a different line from the normal SSJ one.

It's clearly still in the SSJ line of progression, though. It's achieved by mastering SSJ in the Oozaru state, so logically one would assume it would be the same power or higher than an SSJ Oozaru.

Exactly, both the Oozaru and the SSJ transformations convey multiplier bonuses the Golden Oozaru which is the prerequisite for the state, is merely the uncompressed/controlled form of SSJ4.

[theherodjl]

Here's my take on SSJ4's multiplier.
SSJ3 Goku was at the disadvantage against Baby Vegeta during their brief fight, two power-ups later thanks to the Saiyans and populace of Earth under his control Baby Vegeta then became even stronger enough to be a little over twice Goku's strength. Factoring in the Oozaru multiplier of 10x makes Super Baby Vegeta over x20 that of SSJ3 Goku.
While the guide-approved multiplier for SSJ3 is x4 of SSJ2 I have a different take on it, SSJ3 in my book is x2 of SSJ2 for this situation.
Here are my example numbers.
Goku(Base): 1
SSJ Goku: 50
SSJ2 Goku: 100
SSJ3 Goku 200
Super Baby Vegeta: 480
Oozaru Baby Vegeta: 4800

At this point it looks like Goku multiplying his strength by x10 of his SSJ3 will produce a good result against Super Baby Vegeta but not Oozaru Baby Vegeta, however consider that Goku then goes SSJ + Oozaru to make a 500x increase from his base which is enough to put him above SBV sitting at 480. Now imagine that Goku's power condensing from his Oozaru form to his SSJ4 form increases another tenfold to enable him to stand toe-to-toe with Oozaru Baby Vegeta so it would look like this.
Goku(Base):1
Goku(Oozaru):10
SSJ Oozaru Goku: 500, greater than Super Baby Vegeta now especially with the raw, uncontrolled power of Oozaru taking effect like how SSJG3 might bring.
SSJ4 Goku: 5000

This variant multiplier of SSJ3 and SSJ4 seems to add up a little in my book for this matter and doesn't seem unreasonable even for DBZ...though I guess it's all up to however you want to interpret it.

[Bullza]

Why do people always bring up Baby's comment about having the greatest Saiyan power to discredit Super Vegito being stronger than Super Saiyan 4?

Since when did Baby ever see or even know about Vegito in the first place? He'd defeated Goten, Gohan and Goku and became part of Vegeta so surely that would be what he was referring to.

Also Super Saiyan 4 being 10c doesn't make too much sense. If anyone got 10x stronger itd be Baby when he turned into the Golden Ape. Goku went from being much weaker than Baby to slightly stronger than the Golden Ape which would suggest a over 10x multiplier.

[buutenks]

Considering ssj3 kid goku got owned by Baby, and then ssj4 Goku owned him easily and then even equaled golden oozarua baby. Id say ssj4 is atleast 30x ssj3. Which would mean he would be above Buuhan and Ultimate Gohan in turn.

[MaxZ]

It depends entirely on what you believe the multiplier for SSJ4 is, and also how strong you think Buu Saga characters are.
If you go with 500x, he gets somewhat close to Super Buu in terms of power but still gets thrashed.
If you use 4,000x he stomps every character in the series except for Super Vegetto.

You do realize that a 10x power boost is a pretty big deal right?

The single biggest power boost form wise is SS1 which grants 50x the users base power, SS2 merely doubles that power (x2) and SS3 quadruples it (X4). SS4 having a 10x power boost is a gigantic improvement over SS3 especial when you consider the fact that the form doesn't seem to have 3's flaws.

Get over the fact that the red monkey form isn't some uber powerful, curb stomping, beat all transformation.

Wait, the last part of your post seems to contradict the first. You start out saying it's crazy strong and then say it's not that great?

4000x doesn't even 'stomp' Gotenks

4000x would be about on par with SSJ3 Gotenks, totally outclassed by Ultimate Gohan, Buutenks, or Buuhan.

[HybridSaiyan]

SSJ4 is stronger than SSB.

[TheMikado]

It depends entirely on what you believe the multiplier for SSJ4 is, and also how strong you think Buu Saga characters are.
If you go with 500x, he gets somewhat close to Super Buu in terms of power but still gets thrashed.
If you use 4,000x he stomps every character in the series except for Super Vegetto.

You do realize that a 10x power boost is a pretty big deal right?

The single biggest power boost form wise is SS1 which grants 50x the users base power, SS2 merely doubles that power (x2) and SS3 quadruples it (X4). SS4 having a 10x power boost is a gigantic improvement over SS3 especial when you consider the fact that the form doesn't seem to have 3's flaws.

Get over the fact that the red monkey form isn't some uber powerful, curb stomping, beat all transformation.

Wait, the last part of your post seems to contradict the first. You start out saying it's crazy strong and then say it's not that great?

4000x doesn't even 'stomp' Gotenks

4000x would be about on par with SSJ3 Gotenks, totally outclassed by Ultimate Gohan, Buutenks, or Buuhan.

Whoa.. what makes you think SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan are 1000% stronger than SSJ3 Goku???

Anyway, as far as Baby is concerned I've always made his possession technique addictive to whatever level the user is. For instance Vegeta SSJ2 should only be a x100 to SSJ3 x400. But because he had already absorbs Gohan and Gotenks power, plus his own levels he was stronger than SSJ3. I would also say he wasn't much stronger because of you watched Baby had to block his hits and didn't tank him at all. Plus Goku had his stamina issue so he stood no chance.

Anyway I have no idea why every says Baby gets 10x stronger as an Ape. That's NOT True.
Baby says it himself
"Vegeta turned into an Ape, not me"
The multiplier would only apply to Vegetas body and not baby's power. The additional power Baby had would be added to Vegetas making the Golden Ape stronger than Goku which is what we see.

Goku wouldn't surpass Baby as a Golden Ape until achieving SSJ4 full power or what I think of as SSJ4-2

[ekrolo2]

According to my numbers, the x5000 multiplier along with whatever potential unlock he got would put him above Gohan and regular Super Boo. He wouldn't touch Super Vegetto though.

[TheMikado]

According to my numbers, the x5000 multiplier along with whatever potential unlock he got would put him above Gohan and regular Super Boo. He wouldn't touch Super Vegetto though.

What are people's multipliers for these guys? Even in GT Gotenks and Trunks suggest fusing as adult/teens and Goku says they still couldn't beat Baby even if they all attacked at once. We know Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan are strong but not sure why people have them 10x stronger than Goku SSJ3. How strong do people think Gokus x400 SSJ3 is compared to those guys?

[ekrolo2]

According to my numbers, the x5000 multiplier along with whatever potential unlock he got would put him above Gohan and regular Super Boo. He wouldn't touch Super Vegetto though.

What are people's multipliers for these guys? Even in GT Gotenks and Trunks suggest fusing as adult/teens and Goku says they still couldn't beat Baby even if they all attacked at once. We know Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan are strong but not sure why people have them 10x stronger than Goku SSJ3. How strong do people think Gokus x400 SSJ3 is compared to those guys?

I have Gotenks as an SS somewhat above SS3 Goju making him roughly 9-10 stronger than him with SS3. Ultimate Gohan is even stronger than that but not by much so I have him about 11-13 timws stronger than SS3 Goku.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It depends entirely on what you believe the multiplier for SSJ4 is, and also how strong you think Buu Saga characters are.
If you go with 500x, he gets somewhat close to Super Buu in terms of power but still gets thrashed.
If you use 4,000x he stomps every character in the series except for Super Vegetto.

You do realize that a 10x power boost is a pretty big deal right?

The single biggest power boost form wise is SS1 which grants 50x the users base power, SS2 merely doubles that power (x2) and SS3 quadruples it (X4). SS4 having a 10x power boost is a gigantic improvement over SS3 especial when you consider the fact that the form doesn't seem to have 3's flaws.

Get over the fact that the red monkey form isn't some uber powerful, curb stomping, beat all transformation.

Wait, the last part of your post seems to contradict the first. You start out saying it's crazy strong and then say it's not that great?

4000x doesn't even 'stomp' Gotenks

4000x would be about on par with SSJ3 Gotenks, totally outclassed by Ultimate Gohan, Buutenks, or Buuhan.

As I said it depends on how strong you think Buu Saga characters are. By my numbers even 5x SSJ3 Goku can surpass Buuhan.

[Ash57]

My point is the whole "Draws hidden power out to its limits" thing is just meaningless fluff and should be disregarded in favor of hard numbers.

Baseless assumption. Your opinion is not higher than what GT Perfect Files tells us.

If Super Saiyan 4 is truly simply drawing out hidden power, then it would be weak as hell since Goku's so called "potential" isn't much higher than his SSJ3 so SSJ4 would be basically useless and he would still easily get thrashed by Baby Vegeta.

No, it would not. You're again making completely baseless assumptions('Goku's potential isn't much higher than his SSj3) and acting like your opinion is higher than the actual facts. Disregarding what GT Perfect Files says about GT is the equivalent of disregarding what Toriyama says about Z. Goku's limits on GT are far bigger than what it was on Z, and that's why he was able to easily defeat Super Baby Vegeta after ascending to Super Saiyan 4.

Super Saiyan 4 = "Draws the person's power to its utmost limits" ✓
Super Saiyan 4 = \ = "multiplies the person's power by tenfold" ✘

These are the actual facts told by GT Perfect Files and GT regarding the Super Saiyan 4 form. EOD.

It's not baseless. We've literally had the same thing said of every transformation. As far as the 10x not meaning anything it means a lot. It confirms the already suspected multiplier. I'm not sure why you want to ignore a hard, established number to use the vaguest estimate possible of a forms power. It shows consistency and I'm not sure how much clear it could be spelt out?

I'm sorry, but this is so ridiculously ridiculous i feel compelled to laugh. A LOT.

Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!!

Your established, fan-made and completely baseless number is immediately debunked and thrown in the tin can due to the fact that GT Perfect Files disagrees with it. Super Saiyan 4 is NOT the same as the other Super Saiyan transformations, the own GT Perfect Files calls Super Saiyan 4 a 'different species from all previous Super Saiyans' which means SSJ4 Logic = \ = any other SSJ transformation logic.

To add to your argument, every form before SSJ4 has been a multiplier. SSJ is 50x base, SSJ2 is 2x that, and SSJ3 is 4x.
So it would be really inconsistent if at SSJ4 it suddenly stopped being a multiplier and became a vague abstract of power.

If it wasn't for the fact that GTPF literally states that SSJ4 is a completely different from all previous Super Saiyans, and it also literally states that SSJ4 is not a multiplier, then you would be right.

End of debate. I have literally every single reliable source regarding GT to stand on, whereas you guys only have your assumptions and "consistency"

[TheMikado]

It depends entirely on what you believe the multiplier for SSJ4 is, and also how strong you think Buu Saga characters are.
If you go with 500x, he gets somewhat close to Super Buu in terms of power but still gets thrashed.
If you use 4,000x he stomps every character in the series except for Super Vegetto.


Wait, the last part of your post seems to contradict the first. You start out saying it's crazy strong and then say it's not that great?

4000x doesn't even 'stomp' Gotenks

4000x would be about on par with SSJ3 Gotenks, totally outclassed by Ultimate Gohan, Buutenks, or Buuhan.

As I said it depends on how strong you think Buu Saga characters are. By my numbers even 5x SSJ3 Goku can surpass Buuhan.

That's more like what I was thinking, this also doesn't factor in Goku being at Buu levels in base in GT.

Further if people think that Super's Goku/Vegeta base is now far stronger than a 10x-15x SSJ3 Goku based on fighting SSJ3 Gotenks, that's unbelievably preposterous. It was bad enough at lower multipliers but !!!

[TheMikado]

Baseless assumption. Your opinion is not higher than what GT Perfect Files tells us.

If Super Saiyan 4 is truly simply drawing out hidden power, then it would be weak as hell since Goku's so called "potential" isn't much higher than his SSJ3 so SSJ4 would be basically useless and he would still easily get thrashed by Baby Vegeta.

No, it would not. You're again making completely baseless assumptions('Goku's potential isn't much higher than his SSj3) and acting like your opinion is higher than the actual facts. Disregarding what GT Perfect Files says about GT is the equivalent of disregarding what Toriyama says about Z. Goku's limits on GT are far bigger than what it was on Z, and that's why he was able to easily defeat Super Baby Vegeta after ascending to Super Saiyan 4.

Super Saiyan 4 = "Draws the person's power to its utmost limits" ✓
Super Saiyan 4 = \ = "multiplies the person's power by tenfold" ✘

These are the actual facts told by GT Perfect Files and GT regarding the Super Saiyan 4 form. EOD.

It's not baseless. We've literally had the same thing said of every transformation. As far as the 10x not meaning anything it means a lot. It confirms the already suspected multiplier. I'm not sure why you want to ignore a hard, established number to use the vaguest estimate possible of a forms power. It shows consistency and I'm not sure how much clear it could be spelt out?

I'm sorry, but this is so ridiculously ridiculous i feel compelled to laugh. A LOT.

Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!!

Your established, fan-made and completely baseless number is immediately debunked and thrown in the tin can due to the fact that GT Perfect Files disagrees with it. Super Saiyan 4 is NOT the same as the other Super Saiyan transformations, the own GT Perfect Files calls Super Saiyan 4 a 'different species from all previous Super Saiyans' which means SSJ4 Logic = \ = any other SSJ transformation logic.

To add to your argument, every form before SSJ4 has been a multiplier. SSJ is 50x base, SSJ2 is 2x that, and SSJ3 is 4x.
So it would be really inconsistent if at SSJ4 it suddenly stopped being a multiplier and became a vague abstract of power.

If it wasn't for the fact that GTPF literally states that SSJ4 is a completely different from all previous Super Saiyans, and it also literally states that SSJ4 is not a multiplier, then you would be right.

End of debate. I have literally every single reliable source regarding GT to stand on, whereas you guys only have your assumptions and "consistency"

Sir I will state this first. Your claim to have knowledge of every GT source is invalid as you don't even quote the full passage you are referencing. Either you do not have his knowledge or I suggest rereading for comprehension. Direct from the Guide:

Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!! It’s distinguished by having a different appearance than previous Super Saiyans, with red body fur and long black hair!! It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.

Golden Oozaru is the basis of its super power!!
After succeeding in regenerating his tail, Goku transformed into the mightiest and most violent Golden Oozaru, devoid of reason, who carried out nothing but destruction!! When this Golden Oozaru gained a human heart, the result was the birth of the mightiest of warriors, Super Saiyan 4, who combines reason with tremendous power!!

It literally says the Oozaru form is the basis of its power (which has a known multiplier). You are wrong. Please do not embarrass yourself further.

[Ash57]

If Super Saiyan 4 is truly simply drawing out hidden power, then it would be weak as hell since Goku's so called "potential" isn't much higher than his SSJ3 so SSJ4 would be basically useless and he would still easily get thrashed by Baby Vegeta.

No, it would not. You're again making completely baseless assumptions('Goku's potential isn't much higher than his SSj3) and acting like your opinion is higher than the actual facts. Disregarding what GT Perfect Files says about GT is the equivalent of disregarding what Toriyama says about Z. Goku's limits on GT are far bigger than what it was on Z, and that's why he was able to easily defeat Super Baby Vegeta after ascending to Super Saiyan 4.

Super Saiyan 4 = "Draws the person's power to its utmost limits" ✓
Super Saiyan 4 = \ = "multiplies the person's power by tenfold" ✘

These are the actual facts told by GT Perfect Files and GT regarding the Super Saiyan 4 form. EOD.

It's not baseless. We've literally had the same thing said of every transformation. As far as the 10x not meaning anything it means a lot. It confirms the already suspected multiplier. I'm not sure why you want to ignore a hard, established number to use the vaguest estimate possible of a forms power. It shows consistency and I'm not sure how much clear it could be spelt out?

I'm sorry, but this is so ridiculously ridiculous i feel compelled to laugh. A LOT.

Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!!

Your established, fan-made and completely baseless number is immediately debunked and thrown in the tin can due to the fact that GT Perfect Files disagrees with it. Super Saiyan 4 is NOT the same as the other Super Saiyan transformations, the own GT Perfect Files calls Super Saiyan 4 a 'different species from all previous Super Saiyans' which means SSJ4 Logic = \ = any other SSJ transformation logic.

To add to your argument, every form before SSJ4 has been a multiplier. SSJ is 50x base, SSJ2 is 2x that, and SSJ3 is 4x.
So it would be really inconsistent if at SSJ4 it suddenly stopped being a multiplier and became a vague abstract of power.

If it wasn't for the fact that GTPF literally states that SSJ4 is a completely different from all previous Super Saiyans, and it also literally states that SSJ4 is not a multiplier, then you would be right.

End of debate. I have literally every single reliable source regarding GT to stand on, whereas you guys only have your assumptions and "consistency"

Sir I will state this first. Your claim to have knowledge of every GT source is invalid as you don't even quote the full passage you are. Basing your information on. Either you do not have his knowledge or I suggest rereading for comprehension. Direct from the Guide:

Super Saiyan 4
The form which draws out the battle power which Saiyans posses out to the utmost limits is this, Super Saiyan 4!! It’s distinguished by having a different appearance than previous Super Saiyans, with red body fur and long black hair!! It is called Super Saiyan 4 out of convenience, but due to it being a transformation from Golden Oozaru, it would be no exaggeration to call it a different species from all previous Super Saiyans!! Thinking of it as a different species, you could also name such points as the fact that unlike with 3 he has an adult appearance, despite being a transformation of little Goku.

Golden Oozaru is the basis of its super power!!
After succeeding in regenerating his tail, Goku transformed into the mightiest and most violent Golden Oozaru, devoid of reason, who carried out nothing but destruction!! When this Golden Oozaru gained a human heart, the result was the birth of the mightiest of warriors, Super Saiyan 4, who combines reason with tremendous power!!

It literally says the Oozaru form is the basis of its power (which has a known multiplier). You are wrong. Please do not embarrass yourself further.

Super Saiyan is also the basis of Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3, and all other Super Saiyan transformations according to Toriyama. Does that mean SSJG2 and SSJG3 provide the same boost as a normal Super Saiyan? Or that Super Saiyan 2 and 3 = Super Saiyan?The answer is a strikingly obvious 'no'. With 'basis', GTPF means that Golden Oozaru is the first step onto achieving Super Saiyan 4, just like mastering Super Saiyan is the first step to achieve Super Saiyan 2.

Not to mention you're purposedly misinterpreting the quote to suit your bias. Golden Oozaru is the basis of SSJ4, not regular Oozaru. The Golden Oozaru multiplier is unknown. Also:

When this Golden Oozaru gained a human heart, the result was the birth of the mightiest of warriors, Super Saiyan 4

According to this tidbit, Super Saiyan 4 > Golden Oozaru, which means that even if the baseless assumption of Golden Oozaru being ten times Super Saiyan was correct, it would mean nothing because Super Saiyan 4 is stronger.

You have shown that you have nothing to stand on, only your baseless assumptions, while i have GT Perfect Files and GT. I have debunked every single argument of yours.

I don't have to repeat myself when i say that SSJ4 Goku from DBZ would be fodder to Ultimate Gohan