Zamasu's logic is bullshit

[Fionordequester]

In the old Testament God wipes out humanity for not obeying him...

Ehhhh...there was a little more to it than that:

5 The Lord observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil. 6 So the Lord was sorry he had ever made them and put them on the earth. It broke his heart. 7 And the Lord said, “I will wipe this human race I have created from the face of the earth. Yes, and I will destroy every living thing—all the people, the large animals, the small animals that scurry along the ground, and even the birds of the sky. I am sorry I ever made them.” 8 But Noah found favor with the Lord.

--New Living Translation, Genesis 6:5-8

11 Now God saw that the earth had become corrupt and was filled with violence. 12 God observed all this corruption in the world, for everyone on earth was corrupt. 13 So God said to Noah, “I have decided to destroy all living creatures, for they have filled the earth with violence. Yes, I will wipe them all out along with the earth!

--New Living Translation, Genesis 6:11-13

So it wasn't just that the people "disobeyed" him, it was that they had all become totally depraved. Now, it sounds a lot like Zamasu at first glance...but, here's the key difference in their decisions; God would rather NOT have done what he did, as reflected in Ezekiel:

23 “Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign Lord. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live. 24 However, if righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things and act like other sinners, should they be allowed to live? No, of course not! All their righteous acts will be forgotten, and they will die for their sins.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right!’ Listen to me, O people of Israel. Am I the one not doing what’s right, or is it you? 26 When righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things, they will die for it. Yes, they will die because of their sinful deeds. 27 And if wicked people turn from their wickedness, obey the law, and do what is just and right, they will save their lives. 28 They will live because they thought it over and decided to turn from their sins. Such people will not die. 29 And yet the people of Israel keep saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right!’ O people of Israel, it is you who are not doing what’s right, not I.

30 “Therefore, I will judge each of you, O people of Israel, according to your actions, says the Sovereign Lord. Repent, and turn from your sins. Don’t let them destroy you! 31 Put all your rebellion behind you, and find yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O people of Israel? 32 I don’t want you to die, says the Sovereign Lord. Turn back and live!

--New Living Translation, Ezekiel 18:23-30

10 “Son of man, give the people of Israel this message: You are saying, ‘Our sins are heavy upon us; we are wasting away! How can we survive?’ 11 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?

12 “Son of man, give your people this message: The righteous behavior of righteous people will not save them if they turn to sin, nor will the wicked behavior of wicked people destroy them if they repent and turn from their sins. 13 When I tell righteous people that they will live, but then they sin, expecting their past righteousness to save them, then none of their righteous acts will be remembered. I will destroy them for their sins. 14 And suppose I tell some wicked people that they will surely die, but then they turn from their sins and do what is just and right. 15 For instance, they might give back a debtor’s security, return what they have stolen, and obey my life-giving laws, no longer doing what is evil. If they do this, then they will surely live and not die. 16 None of their past sins will be brought up again, for they have done what is just and right, and they will surely live.

17 “Your people are saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right,’ but it is they who are not doing what’s right. 18 For again I say, when righteous people turn away from their righteous behavior and turn to evil, they will die. 19 But if wicked people turn from their wickedness and do what is just and right, they will live. 20 O people of Israel, you are saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right.’ But I judge each of you according to your deeds.”

--New Living Translation, Ezekiel 18:10-20

And if you're wondering what it was that MADE Israel so evil in God's eyes? Well...here's a small sampling...

4 “‘For Israel has forsaken me and turned this valley into a place of wickedness. The people burn incense to foreign gods—idols never before acknowledged by this generation, by their ancestors, or by the kings of Judah. And they have filled this place with the blood of innocent children. 5 They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing! 6 So beware, for the time is coming, says the Lord, when this garbage dump will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

--New Living Translation, Jeremiah 18:4-8

God may be violent at times, but he doesn't delight in it the way Zamasu does; that's the crucial difference. That's why he sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins. Now, if you want to say that he's still being far too extreme in his methods...that's fair. I mean, I trust him, but, I can see why he'd make other people nervous.

[DragonBallFoodie]

Hypocrisy is fine, but it only works when the person becomes aware of it, either through self evaluation or because someone else makes them face it. How they react to it once they realize is important too, and I also think it only works in one more way, when it is intentionally the point of their character. I don't see hypocrisy as the point of Zamasu's character, I see extremism as it, like Sensui from Yu Yu Hakusho or Akainu from One Piece. The main problem with hypocrisy in regards to Zamasu (at least how it appears to me) is that how he's contradicting himself is pretty plain as day and he doesn't get it. I don't think anyone who hated mortals would become one, its just too obvious (for better lack of term) a contradiction, it makes Zamasu look like an idiot rather than making the writing look good (all in my opinion at least).

Well, nobody has managed to call him out on his hypocrisy yet. I hope someone manages to do so.

I don't think DB has had any really hypocritical villains, or at least any villains who look beyond hurting people and destroying worlds. Zamasu is a pretty unique standout for having villainous development (which includes extremism and hypocrisy).

[SaiyanZ]

Hypocrisy is fine, but it only works when the person becomes aware of it, either through self evaluation or because someone else makes them face it. How they react to it once they realize is important too, and I also think it only works in one more way, when it is intentionally the point of their character. I don't see hypocrisy as the point of Zamasu's character, I see extremism as it, like Sensui from Yu Yu Hakusho or Akainu from One Piece. The main problem with hypocrisy in regards to Zamasu (at least how it appears to me) is that how he's contradicting himself is pretty plain as day and he doesn't get it. I don't think anyone who hated mortals would become one, its just too obvious (for better lack of term) a contradiction, it makes Zamasu look like an idiot rather than making the writing look good (all in my opinion at least).

Well, nobody has managed to call him out on his hypocrisy yet. I hope someone manages to do so.

I don't think DB has had any really hypocritical villains, or at least any villains who look beyond hurting people and destroying worlds. Zamasu is a pretty unique standout for having villainous development (which includes extremism and hypocrisy).

Yeah, I appreciate that too, he's the first guy we've seen who "grows" into a villain which is fresh for the series. I see Cell as hypocritical in a sense, since he uses the bulky form that Trunks used against him on Gohan.

[Freeza9000]

If anything, the future of Trunks's world is literally the epitome of what's wrong with mortals. There's an evil mad scientist out there trying to build androids to try to kill Goku and turns out that the androids have destroyed a great amount of the Earth's people. Now I know that there's been no threat since Trunks killed the androids, but who knows if there's going to be another threat out there just as bad as that.

One evil mad scientist doesn't mean that every other mortal is the same. Nor does Zamasu even know about Gero.

Zamasu still knew what has happened to the Earth though. I mean, when he was talking to Trunks about his "crime", there were several flashbacks to the events of the Androids arc and how the androids were killed.

I never said that all mortals were like that. However, a plethora of them are such as races such as the Saiyans, Barbarians, Boo, and Androids. Although there are beings that are peaceful, they are often contaminated with the amount of assholes that would destroy that peace.

[Lord Frieza]

Its really not bullshit, it just the way he see's it.

First of Zamasu is not a human, none of the kais are and you cannot attribute our ways of thinking to them. They are born with powers and abilities most mortals will never have and are also effectively born to rule, they are gods.

And Zamasu is not the only one of acting all high and mighty. Looking back through the Buu saga and Super most Kaioshin seem to look down their noses at mortal races in one way or another. Zamasu's way of thinking is really just the end result of that kind of superiority complex. Why should he guard and protect those who are clearly inferior and do nothing but cause destruction and pain among themselfs and even threaten the gods?

[Fionordequester]

Why should he guard and protect those who are clearly inferior and do nothing but cause destruction and pain among themselfs and even threaten the gods?

Let's argue for the sake of argument that he really superior; THAT'S EXACTLY WHY HE SHOULD GUARD AND PROTECT THEM!! The whole point of taking the moral high ground is that you don't neglect anyone who needs your help. You're not supposed to use violence unless there really is just no other way.

Zamasu's "godhood" should hold him to a higher standard, not a lower one. He should be punished much more harshly than a mortal for doing the same crime.

[Marlowe89]

I'm pretty sure Zamasu is fully aware of the hypocrisy in using a mortal's body to accomplish his goals - he just simply doesn't care. After all, any hypocrisy he might have is irrelevant to his actual criticism of mortals and as a god, such human labels probably mean nothing to him.

[Lord Frieza]

Why should he guard and protect those who are clearly inferior and do nothing but cause destruction and pain among themselfs and even threaten the gods?

Let's argue for the sake of argument that he really superior; THAT'S EXACTLY WHY HE SHOULD GUARD AND PROTECT THEM!! The whole point of taking the moral high ground is that you don't neglect anyone who needs your help. You're not supposed to use violence unless there really is just no other way.

Zamasu's "godhood" should hold him to a higher standard, not a lower one. He should be punished much more harshly than a mortal for doing the same crime.

To clarify when I say he's superior I'm speaking from the point of view of the kaioshin/gods. Most of them do view themselves in this way.

Your right, but he dosen't see it that way. Its clear that original he wanted to take a more proactive role in dealing with mortals, to actively guide and teach us. But after Goku's blatant disrespect (in Zamasu's eyes) and display of superior power his misgivings started became fear and distrust. He could not understand mortals, Goku especially and his inability to understand became fear, and with fear comes hate. It also didn't help that Goku likely bruised his godly ego.

Zamasu clearly see's the universe on a larger scale then most but lacks the true wisdom to understand it. He cannot understand that the universe needs balance, his view is black and white with no grey. Despite being a god its clear that Zamasu has a very immature view in regards to mortality, justice and reality as a whole. Some people have compared him to Death Note's Light Yagami and the thats a good comparison as both are actually very emotionally immature and lack true wisdom or understanding of how the world works despite being very intelligent.

And all this means that Zamasu truly believes that what he's doing is right, he honestly thinks that he's making the universe better by getting rid of us "lowly mortals".

[Fionordequester]

To clarify when I say he's superior I'm speaking from the point of view of the kaioshin/gods. Most of them do view themselves in this way.

Your right, but he dosen't see it that way. Its clear that original he wanted to take a more proactive role in dealing with mortals, to actively guide and teach us. But after Goku's blatant disrespect (in Zamasu's eyes) and display of superior power his misgivings started became fear and distrust. He could not understand mortals, Goku especially and his inability to understand became fear, and with fear comes hate. It also didn't help that Goku likely bruised his godly ego.

Zamasu clearly see's the universe on a larger scale then most but lacks the true wisdom to understand it. He cannot understand that the universe needs balance, his view is black and white with no grey. Despite being a god its clear that Zamasu has a very immature view in regards to mortality, justice and reality as a whole. Some people have compared him to Death Note's Light Yagami and the thats a good comparison as both are actually very emotionally immature and lack true wisdom or understanding of how the world works despite being very intelligent.

And all this means that Zamasu truly believes that what he's doing is right, he honestly thinks that he's making the universe better by getting rid of us "lowly mortals".

Ah, I see. How does Zamasu explain killing his own kind then?

[Lord Frieza]

To clarify when I say he's superior I'm speaking from the point of view of the kaioshin/gods. Most of them do view themselves in this way.

Your right, but he dosen't see it that way. Its clear that original he wanted to take a more proactive role in dealing with mortals, to actively guide and teach us. But after Goku's blatant disrespect (in Zamasu's eyes) and display of superior power his misgivings started became fear and distrust. He could not understand mortals, Goku especially and his inability to understand became fear, and with fear comes hate. It also didn't help that Goku likely bruised his godly ego.

Zamasu clearly see's the universe on a larger scale then most but lacks the true wisdom to understand it. He cannot understand that the universe needs balance, his view is black and white with no grey. Despite being a god its clear that Zamasu has a very immature view in regards to mortality, justice and reality as a whole. Some people have compared him to Death Note's Light Yagami and the thats a good comparison as both are actually very emotionally immature and lack true wisdom or understanding of how the world works despite being very intelligent.

And all this means that Zamasu truly believes that what he's doing is right, he honestly thinks that he's making the universe better by getting rid of us "lowly mortals".

Ah, I see. How does Zamasu explain killing his own kind then?

Well its clear that Zamasu's contempt has grown beyond just hating mortals, he seems to have developed contempt for the entire system that runs the DB Multiverse.

Zamasu think's he's some kind of visionary and seems to view his fellow gods fools. They are, like himself, superior beings but they are stuck following ideals that he cannot comprehend. Originally I bet he justifies his actions under the banner of "For the Greater Good!" but its clear that he's now slipped into megalomania. He thinks of himself as the savior god who will remake the multiverse into a better, purer place and anything he dose cannot, by definition of his own warped logic, be wrong. He views it as right and so it must be.

[Saturnine]

His logic is bullshit, but the way he functions was a good way for the writers to come up with a villain genuinely more threatening than Majin Buu. Not just in terms of power - when the two Zamasu fuse together, they'll have an immortal, instantly regenerating body, along with an ever-increasing power due to injury.

Come to think of it - the latter is basically what Brolytards profess their idol to have, and on grounds of which they think he's the most powerful possible character.

[SaiyanZ]

One evil mad scientist doesn't mean that every other mortal is the same. Nor does Zamasu even know about Gero.

Zamasu still knew what has happened to the Earth though. I mean, when he was talking to Trunks about his "crime", there were several flashbacks to the events of the Androids arc and how the androids were killed.

I never said that all mortals were like that. However, a plethora of them are such as races such as the Saiyans, Barbarians, Boo, and Androids. Although there are beings that are peaceful, they are often contaminated with the amount of assholes that would destroy that peace.

The implication that all humans/mortals do is just fight is terrible though. Using a newly developed race like the Babarians to foster that hatred is just baiting too, of course they're gonna act like that because they aren't civilized enough. Also, how Zamasu knows about Trunks's past events is beyond me, unless he has access to Goku's memories.

[Freeza9000]

Zamasu still knew what has happened to the Earth though. I mean, when he was talking to Trunks about his "crime", there were several flashbacks to the events of the Androids arc and how the androids were killed.

I never said that all mortals were like that. However, a plethora of them are such as races such as the Saiyans, Barbarians, Boo, and Androids. Although there are beings that are peaceful, they are often contaminated with the amount of assholes that would destroy that peace.

The implication that all humans/mortals do is just fight is terrible though. Using a newly developed race like the Babarians to foster that hatred is just baiting too, of course they're gonna act like that because they aren't civilized enough. Also, how Zamasu knows about Trunks's past events is beyond me, unless he has access to Goku's memories.

In a sense, Zamasu does somewhat have a point. Sure not all mortals/humans are violent, but the cycle of violence is still a harsh reality that still continues perpetually no matter how much we want it to end. It's no wonder why many people are getting shot, raped, tortured, and all these horrible events that occurs around the world. Although I find myself agreeing with Zamasu in this regard, I still can't deny the fact that his way of justice and his attempts of creating a utopia is rather twisted.

[Freeza9000]

Also, Zamasu having that mindset of how all mortals are evil just makes him an ideologically flawed villain. He's just someone that has a rather pessimistic view of humanity and simply someone that couldn't be reasoned with which was apparent when during the teachings of Gowasu, Zamasu barely learned jackshit besides having his doubts of humanity amplified further.

[SaiyanZ]

Zamasu still knew what has happened to the Earth though. I mean, when he was talking to Trunks about his "crime", there were several flashbacks to the events of the Androids arc and how the androids were killed.

I never said that all mortals were like that. However, a plethora of them are such as races such as the Saiyans, Barbarians, Boo, and Androids. Although there are beings that are peaceful, they are often contaminated with the amount of assholes that would destroy that peace.

The implication that all humans/mortals do is just fight is terrible though. Using a newly developed race like the Babarians to foster that hatred is just baiting too, of course they're gonna act like that because they aren't civilized enough. Also, how Zamasu knows about Trunks's past events is beyond me, unless he has access to Goku's memories.

In a sense, Zamasu does somewhat have a point. Sure not all mortals/humans are violent, but the cycle of violence is still a harsh reality that still continues perpetually no matter how much we want it to end. It's no wonder why many people are getting shot, raped, tortured, and all these horrible events that occurs around the world. Although I find myself agreeing with Zamasu in this regard, I still can't deny the fact that his way of justice and his attempts of creating a utopia is rather twisted.

Just as much as there is a cycle of violence, there is one of peace too when you think about it. Also its him not learning enough about humanity (and being a Kaioshin) that makes him seem incompetent in comparison to a similar character like Sensui from Yu Yu Hakusho (since he defended humans and then was scarred from watching the Chapter Black tape)

[Freeza9000]

The implication that all humans/mortals do is just fight is terrible though. Using a newly developed race like the Babarians to foster that hatred is just baiting too, of course they're gonna act like that because they aren't civilized enough. Also, how Zamasu knows about Trunks's past events is beyond me, unless he has access to Goku's memories.

In a sense, Zamasu does somewhat have a point. Sure not all mortals/humans are violent, but the cycle of violence is still a harsh reality that still continues perpetually no matter how much we want it to end. It's no wonder why many people are getting shot, raped, tortured, and all these horrible events that occurs around the world. Although I find myself agreeing with Zamasu in this regard, I still can't deny the fact that his way of justice and his attempts of creating a utopia is rather twisted.

Just as much as there is a cycle of violence, there is one of peace too when you think about it. Also its him not learning enough about humanity (and being a Kaioshin) that makes him seem incompetent in comparison to a similar character like Sensui from Yu Yu Hakusho (since he defended humans and then was scarred from watching the Chapter Black tape)

Yeah, I am aware that there's peace which is why I said not all mortals are violent. Like I once said, his ideology is flawed which is what prevents him from acknowledging the light of humanity. His flawed ideology and "incompetence" is basically what makes him a true ruthless villain that can't be reasoned with as he turned out to be a genocidal maniac that thinks his genocidal actions are "justice". Not to mention, him killing his own master, numerous mortals, other Gods. What makes me like the character of Zamasu is that we actually see him gradually becoming a villain.

[Amph]

He's literally a walking contradiction. He says he hates mortals yet becomes the thing he hates by stealing Goku's body. He says he kills mortals as the duty of the gods, yet he kills those same gods. Terrible character. I have no idea why he decided on the future to execute his plan either, one would think that watching Trunks's future would allow one to see the good in people as they work together to rebuild the world.

ehm no, you didn't pay any attention, he clerarly said that he killed the gods, because they would have been an obstacle to his plan, he stealed goku body to become stronger in a short time

i find it a beautiful character, with actually a good reason, than the simply "i just want to destroy the world" bullshit thing

[SaiyanZ]

He's literally a walking contradiction. He says he hates mortals yet becomes the thing he hates by stealing Goku's body. He says he kills mortals as the duty of the gods, yet he kills those same gods. Terrible character. I have no idea why he decided on the future to execute his plan either, one would think that watching Trunks's future would allow one to see the good in people as they work together to rebuild the world.

ehm no, you didn't pay any attention, he clerarly said that he killed the gods, because they would have been an obstacle to his plan, he stealed goku body to become stronger in a short time

i find it a beautiful character, with actually a good reason, than the simply "i just want to destroy the world" bullshit thing

I did pay attention, my problem isn't that he kills the gods because of them trying to stop him, I perfectly understand that. My problem is that he treats killing mortals as the gods' divine right. He shouldn't be constantly saying that since he killed those same gods. So many times has he called it "the gods' justice" when that has no meaning since he killed them. Its contradictory of him to do that and its insensible.

[Freeza9000]

I did pay attention, my problem isn't that he kills the gods because of them trying to stop him, I perfectly understand that. My problem is that he treats killing mortals as the gods' divine right. He shouldn't be constantly saying that since he killed those same gods. So many times has he called it "the gods' justice" when that has no meaning since he killed them. Its contradictory of him to do that and its insensible.

I think that the philosophy of wiping out all evil was originally a God thing. Hence, it's referred to as the "justice of the gods". In Zamasu's own twisted mind, the evil ones are the mortals and of course, other Gods. IMO, Zamasu just takes that philosophy to an entirely different level and executes it differently.

[Fionordequester]

He's literally a walking contradiction. He says he hates mortals yet becomes the thing he hates by stealing Goku's body. He says he kills mortals as the duty of the gods, yet he kills those same gods. Terrible character. I have no idea why he decided on the future to execute his plan either, one would think that watching Trunks's future would allow one to see the good in people as they work together to rebuild the world.

That's one of my favorite things about him really. It's so...human.