Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

Not in the anime

Not in anything I think.

Except for Episodes 20 and 22 which both explicitly show scenes of Goku and Vegeta using God ki in base.

[Bullza]

What scene was that again? I'll take a look at the scene if I know where it was said.

[Marlowe89]

What scene was that again? I'll take a look at the scene if I know where it was said.

Scene from Episode 20: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmruUQdxaXM

Significance: Whis instructs Goku and Vegeta to heighten their ki without letting it "leak" so that no one can sense it. Goku and Vegeta attempt to do this while sparring, and eventually trigger what is clearly a display of God ki. Most importantly, they never transform during this scene.

Scene from Episode 22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNpUK5n9bHg

Significance: Vegeta remembers Whis' words from Episode 20 about raising his ki only within himself so that it can't be sensed. After doing this, he's able to sense what he calls the "immense pressure of God ki". Again, Vegeta never transforms.

(Hopefully these links aren't infringing on the forum rules since they're just short scenes and not full episodes)

[TheUltimateNinja]

It was utterly pointless especially as they didn't make a big deal of their strenght increasing because it wasn't really supposed to increase much.

Now Vegeta is gonna get a good chunk stronger by training in there alone for 6 months?

Exactly, there was literally no reason to put that scene there because their power didn't increase at all. Sure, if they made some huge gain in power in that saga like reaching the level of a Hakaishin or something I could see why they'd add in such a scene so people won't be skeptical about such a huge power increase, but there's literally no indication that their power rose to even Golden Frieza level, in fact it almost seems that their power didn't increase at all.

On its own this wouldn't bother me that much, but its implications are really bad. This has totally devalued the RoSAT and also made a mockery of rival training and sparring. Plus, now no matter how much Vegeta trains people are gonna be very skeptical if he makes any sort of major improvement because they're going to be thinking,
"If he was unable to make any real gains despite training with Kakarotto in the chamber for 3 years, how is he able to do it now?"

[TheMikado]

What scene was that again? I'll take a look at the scene if I know where it was said.

Scene from Episode 20: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmruUQdxaXM

Significance: Whis instructs Goku and Vegeta to heighten their ki without letting it "leak" so that no one can sense it. Goku and Vegeta attempt to do this while sparring, and eventually trigger what is clearly a display of God ki. Most importantly, they never transform during this scene.

Scene from Episode 22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNpUK5n9bHg

Significance: Vegeta remembers Whis' words from Episode 20 about raising his ki only within himself so that it can't be sensed. After doing this, he's able to sense what he calls the "immense pressure of God ki". Again, Vegeta never transforms.

(Hopefully these links aren't infringing on the forum rules since they're just short scenes and not full episodes)

Wow so two base theory is technically confirmed for the anime.

[Helios518]

What scene was that again? I'll take a look at the scene if I know where it was said.

Scene from Episode 20: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmruUQdxaXM

Significance: Whis instructs Goku and Vegeta to heighten their ki without letting it "leak" so that no one can sense it. Goku and Vegeta attempt to do this while sparring, and eventually trigger what is clearly a display of God ki. Most importantly, they never transform during this scene.

Scene from Episode 22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNpUK5n9bHg

Significance: Vegeta remembers Whis' words from Episode 20 about raising his ki only within himself so that it can't be sensed. After doing this, he's able to sense what he calls the "immense pressure of God ki". Again, Vegeta never transforms.

(Hopefully these links aren't infringing on the forum rules since they're just short scenes and not full episodes)

Wow so two base theory is technically confirmed for the anime.

But how would that work, SSJ Goku w/o god ki is already SSJG level so with his 2nd base would he be many times stronger than his SSJG form? That kind of nullifies the point of the two base theory.

Edit: On top of that, Base Goku's ki was still sensed in the fight with Freeza.

[ZombieVito]

What scene was that again? I'll take a look at the scene if I know where it was said.

Scene from Episode 20: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmruUQdxaXM

Significance: Whis instructs Goku and Vegeta to heighten their ki without letting it "leak" so that no one can sense it. Goku and Vegeta attempt to do this while sparring, and eventually trigger what is clearly a display of God ki. Most importantly, they never transform during this scene.

Scene from Episode 22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNpUK5n9bHg

Significance: Vegeta remembers Whis' words from Episode 20 about raising his ki only within himself so that it can't be sensed. After doing this, he's able to sense what he calls the "immense pressure of God ki". Again, Vegeta never transforms.

(Hopefully these links aren't infringing on the forum rules since they're just short scenes and not full episodes)

I just thought of something. How did Black killed Goku so easily? Zamasu is SSJ2 Goku tier so Goku should be literally 100 times stronger than Black at that moment.

Them having two bases would explain this. Shit it would explain a hell of a lot more. Like Oob vs Goku later on.

[Bullza]

I see where you're coming from but it doesn't particularly make much sense. If they'd only just learned about God Ki then then how were they strong enough to survive Beerus' unrestrained attacks beforehand?

Base Goku was definitely much stronger than he was after fighting Beerus and before these scenes.

Before they were sent in the staff, Beerus said they were much stronger than before and wanted to fight them. If this was before they'd learned how to use a God Ki then they wouldn't (Goku anyway) be stronger than before so why would he wanna fight them?

[Bullza]

In fact whose to say that God Ki even affects their power?

Super Saiyan God Goku had God Ki, the others couldn't sense him. Super Saiyan Goku did not have God Ki, the others could sense him but he wasn't any weaker. He was the exact same strenght except they could sense him.

Why are we assuming that there's any difference in actual power between Base Goku and Vegeta using or not using God Ki?

Whis just said that it was so that their opponent couldn't sense them. He didn't say anything about it making them any stronger.

When they were thrown into the staff Vegeta mentioned just controlling his Ki so it didn't leak out again saying nothing about how he's stronger.

[Marlowe89]

But how would that work, SSJ Goku w/o god ki is already SSJG level so with his 2nd base would he be many times stronger than his SSJG form? That kind of nullifies the point of the two base theory.

Edit: On top of that, Base Goku's ki was still sensed in the fight with Freeza.

If we go back to the BoG saga, we can interpret Goku's "absorption" as having held on to the leftover power from SSG after it expired as Beerus implies. People need to understand that ki output isn't a permanent thing - it flows and it runs out eventually, and after it runs out, it needs to be generated. Indeed, the entire point of Whis' training was Goku and Vegeta learning how to generate God ki on their own.

As for Freeza, we have no idea where final form Freeza stands in relation to SSG Goku, so there's no contradiction there anyway.

If they'd only just learned about God Ki then then how were they strong enough to survive Beerus' unrestrained attacks beforehand?

I already responded to this point of yours earlier in the thread - it's just a gag, and if that was actually an "unrestrained" attack, they would be dead or seriously incapacitated. We know this because Whis compared Goku and Vegeta to Beerus as being the height of a small tree compared to a large castle.

Base Goku was definitely much stronger than he was after fighting Beerus and before these scenes.

But that doesn't mean base Goku was on par with SSG. Even if you think he kept SSG's power after absorbing it, at best that would just make his Super Saiyan form on par with it, but we know from Goku's dialogue in RoF that that's not the case either.

Before they were sent in the staff, Beerus said they were much stronger than before and wanted to fight them. If this was before they'd learned how to use a God Ki then they wouldn't (Goku anyway) be stronger than before so why would he wanna fight them?

Again, you're assuming that Goku hadn't progressed in strength up until learning how to use God ki which is a baseless assumption. The fact of the matter is that Episodes 20 and 22 both explicitly confirm that Goku hadn't learned how to use God ki in base beforehand, and there's really no way around something that's directly presented to the viewers.

[Marlowe89]

Why are we assuming that there's any difference in actual power between Base Goku and Vegeta using or not using God Ki?

Because we were told that in Episode 22. Are you seriously denying a direct statement?

[ekrolo2]

Didn't Krillin and/or Gohan comment that they couldn't sense Goku's power only after he uses Blue against Freeza? Doesn't this kind of shoot the whole "They have God Ki in Base!" idea in the face?

[Helios518]

But how would that work, SSJ Goku w/o god ki is already SSJG level so with his 2nd base would he be many times stronger than his SSJG form? That kind of nullifies the point of the two base theory.

Edit: On top of that, Base Goku's ki was still sensed in the fight with Freeza.

If we go back to the BoG saga, we can interpret Goku's "absorption" as having held on to the leftover power from SSG after it expired as Beerus implies. People need to understand that ki output isn't a permanent thing - it flows and it runs out eventually, and after it runs out, it needs to be generated. Indeed, the entire point of Whis' training was Goku and Vegeta learning how to generate God ki on their own.

As for Freeza, we have no idea where final form Freeza stands in relation to SSG Goku, so there's no contradiction there anyway.

So you think regular ki Base Goku is far above SSJ Gotenks and God Ki Goku is even stronger to you?

[Marlowe89]

So you think regular ki Base Goku is far above SSJ Gotenks and God Ki Goku is even stronger to you?

I think that's certainly possible, yes. We don't really know where base Goku without God ki stands in relation to base Goku with God ki, we just know that the latter is more powerful because Vegeta himself inferred God ki to be stronger.

[Bullza]

I already responded to this point of yours earlier in the thread - it's just a gag, and if that was actually an "unrestrained" attack, they would be dead or seriously incapacitated.

Yeah but you're assuming now that that's a gag. It happened in two different scenes and it was brought up twice, the second time after these "gag" scenes had ended. They might be unrestrained attacks but they weren't his best attacks.

But that doesn't mean base Goku was on par with SSG.

Then why would he be stronger? We were told Super Saiyan was as strong as Super Saiyan God. Then we saw Super Saiyan struggle against Beerus' blast before Base Goku destroyed it in place of where Super Saiyan God destroyed it in the movie.

After that we know Base Goku is much stronger than before. So he's gotta be as strong as Super Saiyan God or he'd never have destroyed it.

The fact of the matter is that Episodes 20 and 22 both explicitly confirm that Goku hadn't learned how to use God ki in base beforehand, and there's really no way around something that's directly presented to the viewers.

That doesn't mean that God Ki affects his strenght. They were already said to be at a level to sense beings with God Ki before these scenes. Nobody ever commented on them being enormously more powerful after not letting it leaking out.

Because we were told that in Episode 22. Are you seriously denying a direct statement?

They never said it was stronger and really why should it be?

It's taking their Ki that they currently have and then controlling it, as Vegeta said, so that Ki doesn't leak out. Why is that going to make them significantly more powerful? It's the same amount of Ki just not being let out, hence what again Vegeta said about the pressure.

[TheMikado]

I think the fact that they CAN use God ki in base is the bigger news. You still can't rectify the power scaling, but the fact that this ability exists at all really breaks the scaling further than it already was. Basically you cannot deny that it exists in the anime, how it's being applied is a whole nother matter entirely.

[Marlowe89]

Yeah but you're assuming now that that's a gag. It happened in two different scenes and it was brought up twice, the second time after these "gag" scenes had ended. They might be unrestrained attacks but they weren't his best attacks.

I think it's obviously a gag, but it doesn't matter if it's a gag because regardless we don't know how much of his own power Beerus was using in that attack. The only one assuming anything here is you, I'm afraid.

Then why would he be stronger? We were told Super Saiyan was as strong as Super Saiyan God. Then we saw Super Saiyan struggle against Beerus' blast before Base Goku destroyed it in place of where Super Saiyan God destroyed it in the movie.

I already addressed this in the very first part of my previous post: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30781&start=8800#p1169341

That doesn't mean that God Ki affects his strenght. They were already said to be at a level to sense beings with God Ki before these scenes. Nobody ever commented on them being enormously more powerful after not letting it leaking out.

Look at the scene from Episode 20 again when Goku and Vegeta are sparring. As soon as the God ki is generated, they become utterly shocked at how much power they felt. Are you actually, unironically implying that they didn't become more powerful than before that God ki was displayed? Despite Vegeta and Goku looking in awe at their bodies after we saw the God ki? Despite the scene specifically spelling it out for you?

That's not even the only thing that indicates God ki is more powerful than regular ki - look at Super Saiyan Blue. Goku describes it as a "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan", so we know that the "power of Super Saiyan God" part is what differentiates Super Saiyan Blue from Super Saiyan. But if the power of Super Saiyan God is what differentiates those two forms, then by default that would mean that none of Goku's golden forms have that power.

It's the same amount of Ki just not being let out, hence what again Vegeta said about the pressure.

Vegeta says "Is this God ki? The pressure feels immense!". He wasn't just commenting on the ki not being let out, he was directly referring to the actual type of God ki as indicated by the linguistic structure of his statement.

Also, are you seriously arguing that more pressure isn't equating to more power here? A denser type of ki would obviously be stronger than a less dense type - to even suggest otherwise is abandoning common sense.

[Bullza]

I think the fact that they CAN use God ki in base is the bigger news.

I don't see how it changes anything either way. If they weren't using God Ki in Base when they fought Frieza then they weren't with anyone.

All it'd really confirm is that there is no Buu saga level Base form which we knew already.

I think it's obviously a gag, but it doesn't matter if it's a gag because regardless we don't know how much of his own power Beerus was using in that attack.

Still a lot more most likely than the heavily suppressed 10% Beerus who took Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta out with a poke. Unrestrained mouth blast >>>>> 10% poke.

You can say the attack and them being hurt was the gag but the point they made twice about it being his unrestrained power wasn't part of the gag. That was there for a reason.

I already addressed this in my previous post:

Beerus never implied that he was just holding on to the leftover power. He said it had merged with him. If he'd only kept the remainder which was going to run out like petrol then that doesn't make sense because after he turned back into a Super Saiyan he still seemed to keep getting stronger as the fight progressed so where would he be gaining power from?

He fired multiple Kamehameha's and went out of Super Saiyan and still seemed to be stronger at the end when he destroyed his blast.

Look at the scene from Episode 20 again when Goku and Vegeta are sparring. As soon as the God ki is generated, they become utterly shocked at how much power they felt.

Perhaps but then this was not used when they fought Frieza. If they weren't using this God Ki when they fought Frieza then the original Base theory of their being that Goku with God Ki and then a Buu saga Goku without Ki is false.

The Goku that fought Frieza didn't have God Ki. Who has Base Goku fought with God Ki then? If the answer is nobody then this two base theory changes nothing from the one base theory.

That's not at all what was insinuated. Vegeta says "Is this God ki? The pressure feels immense!". He wasn't just commenting on the ki not being let out, he was directly referring to the actual type of God ki as indicated by the linguistic structure of his statement.

But how does that work? Why does Vegeta controlling his Ki so it doesn't leak out somehow make it God Ki? What's to stop Krillin from not letting his Ki leak out so he obtains God Ki? If they're not leaking their Ki then why can Vegeta sense Whis?

When they were told to not leak their Ki out and they clashed fists why was there a blue aura? That was the same as the Blue aura of Super Saiyan Blue which Zamasu called Godly Ki when he saw it but there was no blue aura when they had God Ki in Whis' staff.

[Marlowe89]

Still a lot more most likely than the heavily suppressed 10% Beerus who took Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta out with a poke.

Beerus can lower his power output as much as he wants to, even with ki blasts. A poke from a 10% Beerus could easily be stronger than a blast from a Beerus operating at much less power. The point is that you don't know exactly how much power Beerus was generating at all, so you're using baseless speculation to try and back up an equally baseless counterpoint.

Beerus never implied that he was just holding on to the leftover power. He said it had merged with him. If he'd only kept the remainder which was going to run out like petrol then that doesn't make sense because after he turned back into a Super Saiyan he still seemed to keep getting stronger as the fight progressed so where would he be gaining power from?

As I recall, Beerus noted that he held on to the power so it didn't decrease that much. Either way, it's clear that Goku was running on God ki here as he couldn't be sensed throughout the entire fight and Beerus said that he made the power his own (and as we know, SSG's power source is God ki). The whole point is that there's a difference in strength between a base Goku with God ki and base Goku without it.

Perhaps but then this was not used when they fought Frieza. If they weren't using this God Ki when they fought Frieza then the original Base theory of their being that Goku with God Ki and then a Buu saga Goku without Ki is false.

Again, there's nothing to suggest or even remotely indicate how powerful Final Form Frieza was in relation to SSG Goku. It's entirely possible that Goku also improved his base without God ki, at least enough to take on Final Form Frieza which would place him somewhere between Gotenks and SSG Goku. With God ki, he could be on par with SSG Goku - and indeed, that's exactly what his line in RoF specifically implies.

The Goku that fought Frieza didn't have God Ki. Who has Base Goku fought with God Ki then? If the answer is nobody then this two base theory changes nothing from the one base theory.

Base Goku didn't fight anybody using God ki, and you're correct on that point; it doesn't change anything from the one base theory as far as combat is concerned. But I never made any kind of assertion that was combat-related in the first place - only that Whis trained Goku/Vegeta to toggle between regular ki and God ki in base, so the two base theory technically holds true.

But how does that work? Why does Vegeta controlling his Ki so it doesn't leak out somehow make it God Ki? What's to stop Krillin from not letting his Ki leak out so he obtains God Ki?

We don't really know HOW, only that it does work that way because their ki got converted into God ki after they followed those instructions. That's simply the conversion process, and personally I don't think it requires a whole lot of explanation to begin with.

But again, the very fact that Vegeta insinuates that God ki has more pressure confirms by default that it's a stronger ki, since any kind of power output that's more dense is obviously stronger than a less dense variety of that same output.

[omaro34]

Vegeta will be training for a year in the RoSaT... so he should be stronger than before.

I doubt it. Vegeta has already trained in ROSAT three times. And the last time he went in there, IIRC, Vegeta commented on how he and Goku didn't feel that much stronger. I think Vegeta, at this point, has maxed out the amount of strength he can gain from training in the ROSAT.

Exactly. I hope this not happens, we had enough of RoSaT for god's sake

Weren't you only allowed to go twice in the ROSAT in a lifetime before the entrance disappears? Talk about yet another contradiction, I distinctly remember they said this in the Cell Arc.