Bullza wrote:That doesn't particularly matter, Super Saiyan Goku was as strong (stronger by the end) as Super Saiyan God. You're saying that at the end a Super Saiyan Goku who had used up all his power struggled against the ball. Base Goku, again who would have also used up all his power then gathered up enough strength to destroy the ball. So at that point if Base Goku was at full power he should still be comparable to the other forms if not stronger than the other forms.
You're missing the point - it doesn't matter if he gathered up enough strength to destroy the ball or not. He said he'd used up his remaining power with his Kamehameha blast, so he simply wasn't nearly as powerful as he was before firing that Kamehameha regardless of whether he was capable of destroying the ball in his weakened state afterwards. Him destroying something that he didn't destroy as a Super Saiyan doesn't imply or confirm anything about their relative strength in the slightest, that's just what you're speculating based on him doing something in one form and not another. Even in base he was struggling just as much if not more than he was in Super Saiyan before punching it, and he didn't even ATTEMPT to punch the ball as a Super Saiyan so we don't know how he would have fared there.
The fact of the matter is that there was no point of comparison made between base Goku's strength and the full strength of Super Saiyan God. At any point. EVER. You're literally just making that part up to fit your own completely speculative headcanon.
And again, even on Earth it was still Super Saiyan God which was supposed to be vastly more powerful than Goku ever was which includes that first attempt when the four saiyans poured their Ki into him which even then Gohan said was stronger than he had ever been.
So? If Goku wasn't
actually using Super Saiyan God's true strength before flying off to space with Beerus, as the narrator specifically says, then whatever the earthlings were seeing wasn't representative of that transformation's true power to begin with. This is not complicated.
The point is that the Base Goku who fought Frieza was definitley within that Super Saiyan God level.
Then you're just saying that he was using at least a portion of Super Saiyan God's full strength, which I don't disagree with. The example is still flawed though because it doesn't tell us anything about whether he was using 100% of Super Saiyan God's power against Frieza.
Likewise the anime confirmed that losing God Ki did not affect his strength fighting Beerus
Nevertheless, the anime confirmed that God ki is stronger than normal ki as recently as the current arc which is what you were denying a few pages ago which was my whole point. Not sure why you're suddenly changing the goalposts here.
In Episode 24 Goku turns into a Super Saiyan Blue or a God, his Ki disappears and so Krillin and Gohan naturally assume he's turned into a Super Saiyan God. Krillin notes that his hair is blue to which Tien says last time when he fought Beerus his hair was red to which Roshi asks if he's reached a higher level than back then with the answer being yes. King Kai was surprised that he'd learned to become a God on his own.
Again, the quote was that he'd reached an even higher level of power than what he was at back then, followed by Krillin questioning how powerful Goku would become until he's satisfied. It wouldn't make any sense whatsoever for the dialogue to refer to Goku's power "back then" if Goku was already stronger than that power level while fighting Frieza in base. The ENTIRE POINT of that exchange was to illustrate that Goku had become even stronger than what they'd previously witnessed during his fight against Beerus. So Goku being stronger against Beerus than against Final Form Frieza is
exactly what the statement implies.
King Kai didn't just say Goku had become a God without help, he said he'd reached the level of a
Super Saiyan God without help. That's pretty damn specific and obviously not just referring to ki, otherwise King Kai would have just mentioned God ki instead.
No I'm not. You're taking interpretations of things that are said and ignoring what was specifically said. If they specifically said that Goku as a Super Saiyan was now beyond the level of a God...then no Super Saiyan isn't "outright below Super Saiyan God" because that is the exact opposite of what they said.
Yes you are. The narrator never even specifically said that Super Saiyan Goku was stronger than Super Saiyan God, you just inferred it. Saying he was "beyond a God" isn't actually using the term "Super Saiyan God", and it's a pretty vague statement anyway considering that phrases such as "beyond God" and "obtaining the power of God" have been used in contexts outside of
Super Saiyan God specifically on countless occasions in the anime. "God" could easily refer to a generic minimum of strength here, not the actual full power of Super Saiyan God.
Meanwhile, you're assuming that base Goku was as powerful as Super Saiyan God with no piece of dialogue to support that conclusion whatsoever. You're also ignoring the fact that the yellow Super Saiyan cannot represent the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God because that's what the blue form represents. In addition to
that, you're ignoring when the narrator said that Super Saiyan Blue surpassed even Super Saiyan God, which he wouldn't say at all if it was already surpassed with weaker forms than Super Saiyan Blue because that makes absolutely no sense.
When Beerus said that Goku had grown much more powerful then it doesn't actually mean that he's a vast amount weaker than he was before.
If you're referring to Episode 21, that was after Goku and Vegeta were already shown using God ki in base. Beerus may have been well-aware of the fact that they'd have already obtained or were at least close to something like Super Saiyan Blue at the time.
