Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[Scarz]

If I'm not mistaken, that is Hanasia, Goku's mother, Bardock's wife, and the most stupendously amazing Saiyan ever, so sayeth Salagir.

I see, well by her looks I can say that she's better than Gine, though

TAKE THAT BACK! I WILL FIGHT YOU!

[FoolsGil]

I still think that before Dragonball Minus was even thought of, a japanese dbm fan showed Hanasia to Toriyama, and he was DETERMINED to set things right, by making Gine the exact reverse of Hanasia!

What a shame, I think Minus as whole is one of the most disgraceful things ever made to this franchise

Well I prefer Gine to Hanasia. Story wise, it just makes more sense.

[Anime Kitten]

TAKE THAT BACK! I WILL FIGHT YOU!

YES! So much this!

Random question: Is the comic supposed to end when the tournament does, or do you guys think they'll extend the story?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Random question: Is the comic supposed to end when the tournament does, or do you guys think they'll extend the story?

From the very beginning of the thread:

If the story goes well, the tournament will finish and a big adventure will follow.

[Anime Kitten]

Oh, cool. Casual interactions between the residents of each Universe would be nice. Maybe more with U18 Goku/Vegeta, Pan, and Bra, to U16 Vegetto, Pan, and Bra respectively, for a brief example.

[Kamiccolo9]

Random question: Is the comic supposed to end when the tournament does, or do you guys think they'll extend the story?

From the very beginning of the thread:

If the story goes well, the tournament will finish and a big adventure will follow.

Is Salagir planning on pulling a Futurama and having his head put into a jar so that he'll have time for that? At the rate we're going, will be hitting the middle of the century before the tournament is over.

[ParkerAL]

Gine may not have been a particularly developed or interesting character in Dragon Ball Minus, but Hanasia is every Saiyan cliche rolled into one. Not every Saiyan needs to be a hardass badass. It gets boring if members of the same species all fit the same mold.

[Noah]

TAKE THAT BACK! I WILL FIGHT YOU!

Well I prefer Gine to Hanasia. Story wise, it just makes more sense.

Well, if Hanasia is just a female version of Bardock then she sucks too, but I never been a fan of Gine's character, we always had the impression that Goku was good because he hit his head not because his parents were also good people, her introduction was no needed.

[ekrolo2]

Just gonna leave Kunzait's rant on the subject of Minus and why Gine sucks right here:

[spoiler]Toriyama writes the single worst, most hackneyed story of his career, while doing creative vandalism to what is arguably the anime's all time highlight shining moment (and one that he himself, ironically, admired a great deal). Completely dismantles and tarnishes what used to be one of DB's best characters. Its both a stain on the anime as well as the manga. Never should've been written.

Also Gine's entire character design/concept is borderline offensive and easily one of the single most tone deaf things I've ever seen come out of Toriyama's pen: A devoted and dotting Saiya-jin housewife whose fucking battle armor is skirt-shaped and cooks at home waiting for hubby bardock to get home from a hard day's work (of mass murder). Seriously Toriyama? DB's had its (in fairness, relatively few) brushes with cringe worthy un-PC bullshit back in that day (Popo's blackface design and Blue's pedophilia most primarily), which I was able to more or less acknowledge for what they were without either excusing them (at all) or letting them ruin my enjoyment of anything.

But this is so far beyond obviously trite and knuckle draggingly stupid that its absolutely impossible to write off as "a product of a different culture/era". This was 2014 and Toriyama actually created with a straight face a fucking June Cleaver Stepford Housewife Saiya-jin to be Goku's mom. Fuck off. I'd much rather just stick with the Selypa fanon. Selypa, in her absurdly brief screentime, came across as genuinely cool and a natural-seeming foil for Badrock who was unfazed by and cut straight though his standoff-ish bullshit. Goku's mom being just another tough as nails, battle hardened Saiya-jin grunt who probably conceived him with Bardock on a pile of freshly slaughtered corpses rings as FAR more closer to the mark in terms of what we've always been shown of the Saiya-jin.

Or hell, even if you wanted to go the direct opposite route of that, and have the Saiya-jin's space barbarian-like culture treat their women less like fellow soldiers and more like subservient slaves and a lesser species, that would work and be perfectly fine (for the story and character conceits at play here that is) as well. But if you're gonna do THAT, you gotta fully commit to it and show Gine and other Saiya-jin women dressed in rags (not armor) scrubbing floors and being fearfully sycophantic to the men, who treat them with dismissive condescension and probably slap them around casually. Life for these women should me fucking degrading misery where they're treated as subhuman.

Granted I think the former is far better and less problematically dicey, especially since this is ostensibly a kid's show (with several dumptrucks worth of blood and death, but still), but still I'm just saying I'd accept either/or for the type of characters we're dealing with here.

But making Gine goddamned Harriet Nelson in Saiya-jin skirt-armor preparing a nice, cozy dinner for her man (who genuinely loves her in a traditionally romantic way and treats her like a princess) and contradictingly also being seen by him as an equal? That 1) Makes NO goddamn sense and has ZERO internal consistency whatsoever, 2) whitewashes and softens how brutal and gross the Saiya-jin have always been depicted (walking, musclebound ids concerned only with drinking, fighting, killing, and fucking) and 3) is moronically trying to have its cake and eat it too with regards to Saiya-jin gender dynamics.

Either make the women A) fellow battle hardened soldiers down in the muck with the men (ala Vasquez in Aliens) because the Saiya-jin are so bloodthirsty and single minded to fighting and killing that it never occurs to them that the women should be any different, or B) have the women be looked down upon slaves who're treated like utter garbage (as per any other nominally barbaric, thuggish culture): pick one and stick with it, you can't have a fluffy, feel-good combination of both. That's just the epitome of vapid.

Again, I personally like option A better myself, but I'd have been unfazed by B just as well, since either one works for the Saiya-jin as traditionally presented.

But even Gine aside, this story is just inferior to the anime special in every conceivable way. And even as an entity on its own, it makes the manga less cool by association just due to how blatantly a half-assed afterthought it is. Toriyama, even when he's lazily half-assing it, is capable of far, far, far better than this. This is the undisputed nadir of anything in the "Toriyama manga canon".[/spoiler]

[ParkerAL]

Bit of an overreaction, but I understand his point.

Part of the problem is Toriyama rushed Minus out without thinking it through, as is often his modus operandi. Ideas that could've worked out fine if developed properly, such as Bardock gradually softening towards his family, instead landed on us with a flop. I don't mind Gine being the way she is, but there could've been much more to her personality and role to win us over.

I only wish this bookending special didn't overshadow the overall brilliance of Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman. People don't give it it's due enough.

[Bansho64]

Just gonna leave Kunzait's rant on the subject of Minus and why Gine sucks right here:

[spoiler]Toriyama writes the single worst, most hackneyed story of his career, while doing creative vandalism to what is arguably the anime's all time highlight shining moment (and one that he himself, ironically, admired a great deal). Completely dismantles and tarnishes what used to be one of DB's best characters. Its both a stain on the anime as well as the manga. Never should've been written.

Also Gine's entire character design/concept is borderline offensive and easily one of the single most tone deaf things I've ever seen come out of Toriyama's pen: A devoted and dotting Saiya-jin housewife whose fucking battle armor is skirt-shaped and cooks at home waiting for hubby bardock to get home from a hard day's work (of mass murder). Seriously Toriyama? DB's had its (in fairness, relatively few) brushes with cringe worthy un-PC bullshit back in that day (Popo's blackface design and Blue's pedophilia most primarily), which I was able to more or less acknowledge for what they were without either excusing them (at all) or letting them ruin my enjoyment of anything.

But this is so far beyond obviously trite and knuckle draggingly stupid that its absolutely impossible to write off as "a product of a different culture/era". This was 2014 and Toriyama actually created with a straight face a fucking June Cleaver Stepford Housewife Saiya-jin to be Goku's mom. Fuck off. I'd much rather just stick with the Selypa fanon. Selypa, in her absurdly brief screentime, came across as genuinely cool and a natural-seeming foil for Badrock who was unfazed by and cut straight though his standoff-ish bullshit. Goku's mom being just another tough as nails, battle hardened Saiya-jin grunt who probably conceived him with Bardock on a pile of freshly slaughtered corpses rings as FAR more closer to the mark in terms of what we've always been shown of the Saiya-jin.

Or hell, even if you wanted to go the direct opposite route of that, and have the Saiya-jin's space barbarian-like culture treat their women less like fellow soldiers and more like subservient slaves and a lesser species, that would work and be perfectly fine (for the story and character conceits at play here that is) as well. But if you're gonna do THAT, you gotta fully commit to it and show Gine and other Saiya-jin women dressed in rags (not armor) scrubbing floors and being fearfully sycophantic to the men, who treat them with dismissive condescension and probably slap them around casually. Life for these women should me fucking degrading misery where they're treated as subhuman.

Granted I think the former is far better and less problematically dicey, especially since this is ostensibly a kid's show (with several dumptrucks worth of blood and death, but still), but still I'm just saying I'd accept either/or for the type of characters we're dealing with here.

But making Gine goddamned Harriet Nelson in Saiya-jin skirt-armor preparing a nice, cozy dinner for her man (who genuinely loves her in a traditionally romantic way and treats her like a princess) and contradictingly also being seen by him as an equal? That 1) Makes NO goddamn sense and has ZERO internal consistency whatsoever, 2) whitewashes and softens how brutal and gross the Saiya-jin have always been depicted (walking, musclebound ids concerned only with drinking, fighting, killing, and fucking) and 3) is moronically trying to have its cake and eat it too with regards to Saiya-jin gender dynamics.

Either make the women A) fellow battle hardened soldiers down in the muck with the men (ala Vasquez in Aliens) because the Saiya-jin are so bloodthirsty and single minded to fighting and killing that it never occurs to them that the women should be any different, or B) have the women be looked down upon slaves who're treated like utter garbage (as per any other nominally barbaric, thuggish culture): pick one and stick with it, you can't have a fluffy, feel-good combination of both. That's just the epitome of vapid.

Again, I personally like option A better myself, but I'd have been unfazed by B just as well, since either one works for the Saiya-jin as traditionally presented.

But even Gine aside, this story is just inferior to the anime special in every conceivable way. And even as an entity on its own, it makes the manga less cool by association just due to how blatantly a half-assed afterthought it is. Toriyama, even when he's lazily half-assing it, is capable of far, far, far better than this. This is the undisputed nadir of anything in the "Toriyama manga canon".[/spoiler]

I swear, this post never gets old
Kunzait_83 freaking nailed it.

[Noah]

Just gonna leave Kunzait_83's rant on the subject of Minus and why Gine sucks right here:

I only disagree with the part of portraying Saiyan women as slaves since in the TV Special they look to get along well with their male, but overall a nice post, maybe just as good as Gaffer Tape's

[spoiler]I feel like I'm really behind on the bandwagon here, but I just read DB- for the first time. And color me disgusted.

You know what? I don't care. I *really* don't care that it contradicts the TV special. I never cared. In fact, I expected it, especially after that shot of toddler Goku in Jaco appeared. I was almost looking forward to it. I never assumed that just because Toriyama put Bardock in a couple of panels in the manga that that undeniably meant the entirety of the special was canon to the manga continuity. So Toriyama wanted to do his own take? I admit I was hesitant about the idea of adding Goku's mother in, and I think I was pretty vocal about that when it was first announced, but I was trying to reserve judgment until I actually saw where it was going.

But when I get right down to it, ignoring the TV special entirely, I find that this is just a *terrible* story. There is just no way something this short can get across the ideas and feelings it hints at, so the whole thing just careens along at a breakneck pace that's almost nothing but clunky exposition and unexplained motives and characterizations. I was worried that Gine was going to be some perfect, wonderful fanfic-esque character, but, honestly, if I hadn't already read the Toriyama interview about her, I'd barely have any idea who she was. Hell, I still barely know who she was. I barely know who Bardock is!

Maybe it's just my prior knowledge of the series, but I can't exactly commend Bardock for "solving the big mystery." I mean, really? Freeza has been asking around about the Super Saiyan, the legendary warrior said to be stronger than all else (even Freeza), and he suddenly and unexpectedly calls all the Saiyans back to the same location? Um... trap, much? But, again, it's dealt with so quickly and vaguely that I'm not sure if all the other Saiyans look like complete idiots for not putting two and two together, or that Bardock looks like a paranoid conspiracy theorist for being so sure about it with so little information.

Then there's the fact that this origin story is just such a copy of Superman. I mean, the parallels have always been tossed around. But this...? I half expected Bardock to put his hand on the space pod and say, "They can be a great people, Kal-El-Karrot. They wish to be. They only lack the light to show them the way." So completely gone is the idea that Goku was sent to earth to destroy it by his barbaric race but through a twist of fortune ended up becoming good. Instead, he was sent there by his loving parents to keep him safe.

It's exactly what I feared. It makes Goku too "special." Or, specifically, it makes his origin too special. His parents were aberrations who loved each other and showed affection to their children. They're the only ones who figured out what Freeza was up to and took the steps that ultimately led to Freeza's defeat. It's just too pat. I hate to make the comparison, especially in light of everyone balking that it "retcons" the TV special (which it doesn't... the TV special would have had to have been explicitly in the manga's continuity to begin with in order to be retconned), but the TV special walked that tightrope perfectly. It gave Bardock just enough pathos and uniqueness that you could sympathize with him as the protagonist, but it didn't make him out to be anything more than just an evil thug. It played with the idea of him trying to do something to make a difference to his fate and his son's fate, but he ultimately failed, which makes Freeza's memories of him tragically humorous: he was just that guy who got in the way at the last second, and nothing special about him was even remembered or known.

Ultimately, it's fan-service, plain and simple. There's no story here. It's just a bunch of, "Ooh, look, it's Goku's parents." "Ooh, look, it's Vegeta and Raditz as kids." "Ooh, look at all the shiny new backstory." What a waste. I'd rather it not have been written, which is a shame because what I've read of Jaco I've enjoyed immensely. But between this and the abysmal Episode of Bardock, I'd say it's clear they need to put this character on a shelf and never, ever use him again.[/spoiler]

[Tsufuru]

lol cleary mad that goku's mother isnt some1 they wanted.
also i love how they act the only thing she does is cooking 24/7 from one scene. These rants are bullshit.

[ekrolo2]

lol cleary mad that goku's mother isnt some1 they wanted.
also i love how they act the only thing she does is cooking 24/7 from one scene. These rants are bullshit.

Toriyama pretty much said she was a worthless fighter who Bardock had to keep an eye on that retired. Considering the fact Super went out of its way to say that Saiyan men like strong willed women like Chi-Chi and Bulma, Bardock, being a far more vicious Saiyan, would've sent Gine to die so he wouldn't have to deal with her anymore. The Saiyan's are a horrendous species, they do not take kindly to weakness of any kind. Certainly enough for one of them to stick their neck out for a weakling like Gine.

This isn't about people not getting what they wanted, this is a blatant contradiction to everything we know about Saiyan culture and it makes them far, far less interesting.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

lol cleary mad that goku's mother isnt some1 they wanted.
also i love how they act the only thing she does is cooking 24/7 from one scene. These rants are bullshit.

Toriyama pretty much said she was a worthless fighter who Bardock had to keep an eye on that retired. Considering the fact Super went out of its way to say that Saiyan men like strong willed women like Chi-Chi and Bulma, Bardock, being a far more vicious Saiyan, would've sent Gine to die so he wouldn't have to deal with her anymore. The Saiyan's are a horrendous species, they do not take kindly to weakness of any kind. Certainly enough for one of them to stick their neck out for a weakling like Gine.

This isn't about people not getting what they wanted, this is a blatant contradiction to everything we know about Saiyan culture and it makes them far, far less interesting.

Keep in mind that a lot of what we know of Saiyan Culture comes from filler material. If we look strictly in the context of the manga, which doesn't elaborate much on the Saiyans as a people, it's not really a contradiction at all.

[Fionordequester]

Toriyama pretty much said she was a worthless fighter who Bardock had to keep an eye on that retired. Considering the fact Super went out of its way to say that Saiyan men like strong willed women like Chi-Chi and Bulma, Bardock, being a far more vicious Saiyan, would've sent Gine to die so he wouldn't have to deal with her anymore. The Saiyan's are a horrendous species, they do not take kindly to weakness of any kind. Certainly enough for one of them to stick their neck out for a weakling like Gine.

This isn't about people not getting what they wanted, this is a blatant contradiction to everything we know about Saiyan culture and it makes them far, far less interesting.

Ekrolo, no society is a hive mind. Just because most saiyans may be like that (and even that's questionable; a lot of that sounds more like propaganda than actual biology to me), that doesn't mean ALL of them are. There's variance in different people. And heck, sometimes socio-cultural factors also help to offset whatever negative tendencies a person is pre-disposed to.

I wish I had the citations to throw up, but, I don't; so I'm just going to share a quick example of what I once learned from one of my many Psychology textbooks:

Now, we all know that intense, prolonged, and violent childhood trauma can really jack someone up, right? And yet, different people can get jacked up in different ways, even when growing up under the same circumstances. Some will end up weak, frail, and co-dependent; they end up being utterly incapable of doing anything by themselves. Yet, other people will grow up to be the exact opposite. They'll grow to be heartless bullies; violent and uncaring in everything they do. They'll basically end up being just like how Vegeta used to be. And then OTHER people will use those same set of circumstances as motivation to live a different way. When they form a family, they'll be motivated to give their children a life that's completely different from what they got.

All of these speak to a set of tendencies that different people are born with due to genetic variation. Some will be genetically predisposed to alcoholism; others will be predisposed to slothfulness; and still others will be predisposed to violence.

And yet, "predisposition" does NOT equal "predestination". Even those with a predisposition towards violence will generally grow up to be docile, affectionate, hard-working members of society so long as that behavior is modeled in their home. Obviously, there are exceptions to this rule, but they are only that; exceptions.

So here's my points:

1) We don't even know if the saiyans have any genetic predispositions towards violence. Vegeta isn't exactly an unbiased source, and neither are any of the countless races that were subjugated by the saiyans. Heck, just look at the Spartans; I'm sure King Leonidas and others would give you the exact same spiel about how the Spartans were "born to die a glorious death on the battlefield, not to rot away on a soft bed of feathers", or whatever rhetoric he would have used.

2) Even if there was such a genetic predisposition, Bardock's could've simply acquired a taste for passive women at some point. Maybe all the "strong-willed" women in his life were crazy harpies that made him miserable. Maybe he had an abusive mother, one that made him desire the exact opposite kind of woman. Who knows?

Either way, I think THAT interests me a lot more than "oh, the saiyans are a hive mind. You meet one, you've met them all".

[Noah]

Keep in mind that a lot of what we know of Saiyan Culture comes from filler material.

Keep in mind that some filler are ideas given by Toriyama.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Keep in mind that a lot of what we know of Saiyan Culture comes from filler material.

Keep in mind that some filler are ideas given by Toriyama.

So what? What is and isn't his idea has no bearing on anything. Toriyama has historically never expounded upon anything that isn't in his original manga (Bardock aside). Besides, Toriyama is notorious for pulling concepts straight from his ass.

[ekrolo2]

Ekrolo, no society is a hive mind. Just because most saiyans may be like that (and even that's questionable; a lot of that sounds more like propaganda than actual biology to me), that doesn't mean ALL of them are. There's variance in different people. And heck, sometimes socio-cultural factors also help to offset whatever negative tendencies a person is pre-disposed to.

I wish I had the citations to throw up, but, I don't; so I'm just going to share a quick example of what I once learned from one of my many Psychology textbooks:

Now, we all know that intense, prolonged, and violent childhood trauma can really jack someone up, right? And yet, different people can get jacked up in different ways, even when growing up under the same circumstances. Some will end up weak, frail, and co-dependent; they end up being utterly incapable of doing anything by themselves. Yet, other people will grow up to be the exact opposite. They'll grow to be heartless bullies; violent and uncaring in everything they do. They'll basically end up being just like how Vegeta used to be. And then OTHER people will use those same set of circumstances as motivation to live a different way. When they form a family, they'll be motivated to give their children a life that's completely different from what they got.

All of these speak to a set of tendencies that different people are born with due to genetic variation. Some will be genetically predisposed to alcoholism; others will be predisposed to slothfulness; and still others will be predisposed to violence.

And yet, "predisposition" does NOT equal "predestination". Even those with a predisposition towards violence will generally grow up to be docile, affectionate, hard-working members of society so long as that behavior is modeled in their home. Obviously, there are exceptions to this rule, but they are only that; exceptions.

So here's my points:

1) We don't even know if the saiyans have any genetic predispositions towards violence. Vegeta isn't exactly an unbiased source, and neither are any of the countless races that were subjugated by the saiyans. Heck, just look at the Spartans; I'm sure King Leonidas and others would give you the exact same spiel about how the Spartans were "born to die a glorious death on the battlefield, not to rot away on a soft bed of feathers", or whatever rhetoric he would have used.

2) Even if there was such a genetic predisposition, Bardock's could've simply acquired a taste for passive women at some point. Maybe all the "strong-willed" women in his life were crazy harpies that made him miserable. Maybe he had an abusive mother, one that made him desire the exact opposite kind of woman. Who knows?

Either way, I think THAT interests me a lot more than "oh, the saiyans are a hive mind. You meet one, you've met them all".

I am fully aware that no species are a hive mind, I also know that Dragon Ball doesn't realistically show how people think/react given how the franchise works. No one, and I mean fucking no one in their right mind would ever, EVER, become aware of the apocalypse like the Z-fighters are in the early Android arc and have an easy means to prevent it and chose not to just because they want to fight people. No sane person would do that yet the series majoratively treats that as the norm.

And you are right, some Saiyan's were weak like Gine and Tarble, and if what we know of the Saiyan's stuck, those people would get murdered instantly. The Saiyan's uniqueness comes from the fact that Toei and even Toriyama for a time, didn't make them some poor species who were bullied by Freeza into being slaves. The Saiyan's were bad people, they sent their infant children into space to committ planetary genocide. The thing about the Bardock special was just that: it was one bastard among many trying to save his own hide and failing, but the Saiyan's weren't worth saving. They were bad people.

In any other piece of fiction the author would white wash them just so they become more sympathetic or that they don't reflect poorly on the protagonists or the characters who belong to them. But DB didn't: it treated the Saiyan's as a contemptable species and kept them like that. So, while some users on here may prefer a more humanized, varied approach, I'll take the version Kunzait proposed, where Bardock and some unspecified Saiyan woman he didn't know or care about boned on a pile of corpses and conceived Goku so he could group up and murder people too. It makes Goku's coming to Earth and saving it a lot more powerful and makes his gains special because through hard work and determination he spat in the face of his worthless species and proved he was better than all of them would ever be.

[Doctor.]

No one, and I mean fucking no one in their right mind would ever, EVER, become aware of the apocalypse like the Z-fighters are in the early Android arc and have an easy means to prevent it and chose not to just because they want to fight people. No sane person would do that yet the series majoratively treats that as the norm.

You dare doubt my insanity?