Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Legion]

However this is not same logic as neither gowasu or shin have witnessed Whis/Vados(angels) or high priest, guards or even omniking in fight, while clearly one of them witnessed at least beerus vs champa(more impressive in manga).

But there is no evidence.

Just to clarify, I never say that Beerus> merged Zamasu. But for now, i have not seen anything that suggests merged Zamasu> Beerus. I wait the next episodes.

I don't care about power levels and multipliers in this anime. The characters are as strong as the plot requires them to be....

Apparently you didn't pay attention then. Vegeta said he's never seen ANYONE who possesses that much energy. And then Gowasu said that when they fused, their powers didn't just merge together.. No, it expanded to NO END...!
In fact, the contrary should be true to what your suggesting.. We should automatically assume the fusion to be stronger than Beerus UNLESS something says otherwise! And many more hints in this episode.. They were all terrified.

Vegeta also never seen Beerus and Whis full power. And i have no doubt that Whis>>Zamasu, sorry.
Gowasu said that when they fused, their powers didn't just merge together and it expanded to no end? yeah, i know. But this not change what i said.

We will see in the next episodes

[Helios518]

He didn't have to get hit (via dodging or blasting the attack away) if he was 2x or more powerful because we've seen those characters easily outspeed and overpower their opponent.

Idk man, SSJ2/3 multipliers are widely accepted in the community because they fit like a glove with the manga and are official while what you're telling me is less supported.

Just because it's widely accepted doesn't mean it's 'canon' or what Toriyama think. The Bardock TV special is also widely accepted, and Toriyama still wrote Minus. You also don't need to be 2x powerful to tank blows. Nappa wasn't 2x stronger than any of the Z-Fighters and he wiped them with only getting some bruises. Transformed Zarbon destroyed Vegeta despite the gap being only 10,000.

1.Well it's infinitely more canon that what a fan is guessing what Toriyama thinks and unlike the Bardock TV special, the multipliers aren't contradicted in the manga.

2.If you don't need a 2x gap to tank attacks then that just proves my point further.

[HeroR]

He didn't have to get hit (via dodging or blasting the attack away) if he was 2x or more powerful because we've seen those characters easily outspeed and overpower their opponent.

Idk man, SSJ2/3 multipliers are widely accepted in the community because they fit like a glove with the manga and are official while what you're telling me is less supported.

Just because it's widely accepted doesn't mean it's 'canon' or what Toriyama think. The Bardock TV special is also widely accepted, and Toriyama still wrote Minus. You also don't need to be 2x powerful to tank blows. Nappa wasn't 2x stronger than any of the Z-Fighters and he wiped them with only getting some bruises. Transformed Zarbon destroyed Vegeta despite the gap being only 10,000.

1.Well it's infinitely more canon that what a fan is guessing what Toriyama thinks and unlike the Bardock TV special, the multipliers aren't contradicted in the manga.

2.If you don't need a 2x gap to tank attacks then that just proves my point further.

My point is that those multiplier aren't in the manga and most likely weren't on Toriyama's mind. So he probably wasn't thinking Gohan was 2x stronger than Cell.

It shows that you can just assign random multipliers. Especially to beings who don't dodged anything. That is how you have Future Zamasu taking hits from Super Saiyan 2 Trunks despite him fighting almost on par with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

[dbgtFO]

Nappa wasn't 2x stronger than any of the Z-Fighters and he wiped them with only getting some bruises. Transformed Zarbon destroyed Vegeta despite the gap being only 10,000.

My point is that those multiplier aren't in the manga and most likely weren't on Toriyama's mind. So he probably wasn't thinking Gohan was 2x stronger than Cell.

So we can disregard the multipliers because they were not in the manga, but Nappa's power level, that was not in the manga either should just be taken as is? And wherever you got the got the supposed Zarbon power level from?

[HeroR]

Nappa wasn't 2x stronger than any of the Z-Fighters and he wiped them with only getting some bruises. Transformed Zarbon destroyed Vegeta despite the gap being only 10,000.

My point is that those multiplier aren't in the manga and most likely weren't on Toriyama's mind. So he probably wasn't thinking Gohan was 2x stronger than Cell.

So we can disregard the multipliers because they were not in the manga, but Nappa's power level, that was not in the manga either should just be taken as is? And wherever you got the got the supposed Zarbon power level from?

I never said what Nappa's power level was. All I said it was less than 2x given how he freaked out at 5,000 power level. I believe Zarbon's power level was stated in a datebook. But that is hypocritical of me, so I will just he also wasn't 2x stronger than Vegeta who was over 30,000 after healing from Zarbon's fight, yet easily handed Vegeta his butt during that first fight.

[Helios518]

Just because it's widely accepted doesn't mean it's 'canon' or what Toriyama think. The Bardock TV special is also widely accepted, and Toriyama still wrote Minus. You also don't need to be 2x powerful to tank blows. Nappa wasn't 2x stronger than any of the Z-Fighters and he wiped them with only getting some bruises. Transformed Zarbon destroyed Vegeta despite the gap being only 10,000.

1.Well it's infinitely more canon that what a fan is guessing what Toriyama thinks and unlike the Bardock TV special, the multipliers aren't contradicted in the manga.

2.If you don't need a 2x gap to tank attacks then that just proves my point further.

My point is that those multiplier aren't in the manga and most likely weren't on Toriyama's mind. So he probably wasn't thinking Gohan was 2x stronger than Cell.

It shows that you can just assign random multipliers. Especially to beings who don't dodged anything. That is how you have Future Zamasu taking hits from Super Saiyan 2 Trunks despite him fighting almost on par with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

Again, those multipliers are official, from a guide book for DB canon, and not contradicted which is more than enough of a reason to use them as oppose to a hypothesis by a fan. If there were some solid proof to ignore those numbers then I would've done it long ago.

[HeroR]

Again, those multipliers are official, from a guide book for DB canon, and not contradicted which is more than enough of a reason to use them as oppose to a hypothesis by a fan. If there were some solid proof to ignore those numbers then I would've done it long ago.

You can used them all you like. But those numbers aren't official.

[Helios518]

Again, those multipliers are official, from a guide book for DB canon, and not contradicted which is more than enough of a reason to use them as oppose to a hypothesis by a fan. If there were some solid proof to ignore those numbers then I would've done it long ago.

You can used them all you like. But those numbers aren't official.

So the Super Exciting Guide is not official despite being published by Shueisha to cover story aspects of the manga?

[Marlowe89]

Apparently you didn't pay attention then. Vegeta said he's never seen ANYONE who possesses that much energy. And then Gowasu said that when they fused, their powers didn't just merge together.. No, it expanded to NO END...!

Yeah. There may not have been any specific comparisons, but it's clear that Merged Zamasu is being touted as something in a whole different realm compared to anything Goku and Vegeta have seen thus far. Assuming that Beerus is even stronger than that (despite fighting with at least 10% power in BoG) is tantamount to assuming that Beerus' strength changes and expands infinitely as the writers see fit, and that's frankly just sloppy storytelling.

I'm personally going to place Merged Zamasu above Beerus but below Whis until stated otherwise in the series. It might be an assumption, but it's certainly not a baseless one.

[HeroR]

So the Super Exciting Guide is not official despite being published by Shueisha to cover story aspects of the manga?

My view, if it's not in the manga or stated by Toriyama, it isn't official to the manga. I have the same policy for all datebooks, like One Piece datebooks are infamous for having information that goes against what happens later in the manga or Oda's statements.

[Helios518]

So the Super Exciting Guide is not official despite being published by Shueisha to cover story aspects of the manga?

My view, if it's not in the manga or stated by Toriyama, it isn't official to the manga. I have the same policy for all datebooks, like One Piece datebooks are infamous for having information that goes against what happens later in the manga or Oda's statements.

1) You're changing what the word "official" means and turning it to a synonym for canon 2) Don't use your opinion to argue facts.

[MagmonKai]

Everyone keeps talking about how Beerus' power being suppressed and all that, but Whis being Beerus' teacher, would know what Beerus is capable of and he flat out said that if Vegeta and Goku worked together they could beat him. Now that they have "fused" not just working side by side, but fused, it's safe to assume that Beerus would lose against Vegetto. Add the fact that Vegetto appears to be fighting evenly with Zamasu it also stands to reason that Merged Zamasu is in the same tier. So Vegetto >= Zamasu > Beerus.

[Helios518]

Everyone keeps talking about how Beerus' power being suppressed and all that, but Whis being Beerus' teacher, would know what Beerus is capable of and he flat out said that if Vegeta and Goku worked together they could beat him. Now that they have "fused" not just working side by side, but fused, it's safe to assume that Beerus would lose against Vegetto. Add the fact that Vegetto appears to be fighting evenly with Zamasu it also stands to reason that Merged Zamasu is in the same tier. So Vegetto >= Zamasu > Beerus.

That was from the RoF movie and not in the arc.

[SansrivaaL]

I remember Vegeta on the U6 arc claiming that training inside RoSAT will only help them by a small margin since they're near their limits, and now the same dude says that saiyans has no limits.....

[HeroR]

1) You're changing what the word "official" means and turning it to a synonym for canon 2) Don't use your opinion to argue facts.

I didn't did used canon. I said official because that is what official is, stuff written by the author, just like everything else in fiction.

And you're using your opinion that the datebooks are correct about the multipliers, which was never stated by the manga or Toriyama. Like, what the basics for those multipliers. Super Saiyan being 50x makes sense since a Kaioken x20 couldn't dent half-powered Freeza. Yet, how did they calculate that Super Saiyan 2 was 2x and Super Saiyan 3 was 3x?

[AvatarReiko]

I thought a Ki Blast is entirely dependent on the user? No Ki attack is inherently stronger than other and the power just depends on how strong the person firing in it is. For example, a SBC from current Piccolo would easily outperform any KK or galic gun performed by Namek Saga Vegeta/Goku.

Certain techniques definitely have better amp capacity. I don't think you could amplify, say, a Masenko or a Kienzan to the level of a Makankosappo.

The Kienzen, sure. That's like an anomaly in the series along with Neo Tri beam. We've seen it work on characters far stronger than the user. But why not Masenko, which is just a beam attack. Are you saying Kid Goku Kamehameha>>>Mystic Gohan Masenko

[HeroR]

The Kienzen, sure. That's like an anomaly in the series along with Neo Tri beam. We've seen it work on characters far stronger than the user. But why not Masenko, which is just a beam attack. Are you saying Kid Goku Kamehameha>>>Mystic Gohan Masenko

Some ki attack are stronger than others. Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon killed an enemy over three times stronger than him and Roshi said the Dodon Ray was stronger than the Kamehameha.

[Helios518]

1) You're changing what the word "official" means and turning it to a synonym for canon 2) Don't use your opinion to argue facts.

I didn't did used canon. I said official because that is what official is, stuff written by the author, just like everything else in fiction.

And you're using your opinion that the datebooks are correct about the multipliers, which was never stated by the manga or Toriyama. Like, what the basics for those multipliers. Super Saiyan being 50x makes sense since a Kaioken x20 couldn't dent half-powered Freeza. Yet, how did they calculate that Super Saiyan 2 was 2x and Super Saiyan 3 was 3x?

What I was saying that you changed the definition of official to be synonym to canon. Official stuff is not exclusive to the creator of a franchise. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/official

Here's the relevant definitions.

[spoiler]1)a person appointed or elected to an office or charged with certain duties.

2)of or relating to an office or position of duty, trust, or authority:

3)authorized or issued authoritatively:

4)appointed or authorized to act in a designated capacity:[/spoiler]

What does office mean? http://www.dictionary.com/browse/office

Here's the relevant definitions
[spoiler]1)a room, set of rooms, or building where the business of a commercial or industrial organization or of a professional person is conducted:

2) a business or professional organization:

3)the staff or designated part of a staff at a commercial or industrial organization:

4)a position of duty, trust, or authority, especially in the government, a corporation, a society, or the like:

6.employment or position as an official:

7.the duty, function, or part of a particular person or agency:[/spoiler]

Who do you think publishes his story, makes the anime, makes the games, etc? Do you think Toei and Shueisha are not authorized to put out DB content? Do you think they're in no position of power in the franchise and are in the same boat as fans?

[HeroR]

Here's the relevant definitions.

[spoiler]1)a person appointed or elected to an office or charged with certain duties.

2)of or relating to an office or position of duty, trust, or authority:

3)authorized or issued authoritatively:

4)appointed or authorized to act in a designated capacity:[/spoiler]

What does office mean? http://www.dictionary.com/browse/office

Here's the relevant definitions
[spoiler]1)a room, set of rooms, or building where the business of a commercial or industrial organization or of a professional person is conducted:

2) a business or professional organization:

3)the staff or designated part of a staff at a commercial or industrial organization:

4)a position of duty, trust, or authority, especially in the government, a corporation, a society, or the like:

6.employment or position as an official:

7.the duty, function, or part of a particular person or agency:[/spoiler]

Who do you think publishes his story, makes the anime, makes the games, etc? Do you think Toei and Shueisha is not authorized to put out DB content? Do you think they're in no position of power in the franchise and are in the same boat as fans?

And Toriyama is the sole writer of the manga. He created the forms, not Toei or Shueisha. If we were talking about GT, the games, ect, the stuff you named would matter since it their product and Toei and Shueisha would have say. However, they don't have a say when it comes to the original manga, and those multipliers have no basics in anything, unlike with Super Saiyan x50 where we can see the logic as why the multiplier is so large, despite Toriyama's feelings about the subject.

For example, despite Harry Potter having several products to its name, the official stuff still lies with JK Rowling. Just because the movies say one thing, doesn't make it true to the books.

[Helios518]

Here's the relevant definitions.

[spoiler]1)a person appointed or elected to an office or charged with certain duties.

2)of or relating to an office or position of duty, trust, or authority:

3)authorized or issued authoritatively:

4)appointed or authorized to act in a designated capacity:[/spoiler]

What does office mean? http://www.dictionary.com/browse/office

Here's the relevant definitions
[spoiler]1)a room, set of rooms, or building where the business of a commercial or industrial organization or of a professional person is conducted:

2) a business or professional organization:

3)the staff or designated part of a staff at a commercial or industrial organization:

4)a position of duty, trust, or authority, especially in the government, a corporation, a society, or the like:

6.employment or position as an official:

7.the duty, function, or part of a particular person or agency:[/spoiler]

Who do you think publishes his story, makes the anime, makes the games, etc? Do you think Toei and Shueisha is not authorized to put out DB content? Do you think they're in no position of power in the franchise and are in the same boat as fans?

And Toriyama is the sole writer of the manga. He created the forms, not Toei or Shueisha. If we were talking about GT, the games, ect, the stuff you named would matter since it their product and Toei and Shueisha would have say. However, they don't have a say when it comes to the original manga, and those multipliers have no basics in anything, unlike with Super Saiyan x50 where we can see the logic as why the multiplier is so large, despite Toriyama's feelings about the subject.

For example, despite Harry Potter having several products to its name, the official stuff still lies with JK Rowling. Just because the movies say one thing, doesn't make it true to the books.

The movies are still an official product of the franchise and again canon and official are not synonyms.

Edit: Removed the "not".

Edit 2: Put back the "not" because I'm stupid.