The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DanielSSJ]

It can't be filler because the anime is the canon medium for Super. The manga is only an adaptation of the anime. It's not like DB and Z that the mangas were around first and then anime were produced afterwards and during.

It's my understanding that the manga and the anime of Super are being written independently of each other.

[Sora Saiyan]

It can't be filler because the anime is the canon medium for Super. The manga is only an adaptation of the anime. It's not like DB and Z that the mangas were around first and then anime were produced afterwards and during.

It's my understanding that the manga and the anime of Super are being written independently of each other.

This is pretty accurate, though Toyo has said that the anime gives him information because they're ahead, but in the near future he will be ahead so he will be the one giving information.

Labelling either one of these as canon would make sense as they both use Toriyamas main plot points but differ on how they reach those main points.

[TheUltimateNinja]

That was a pretty decent performance on Kuririn's part, that showing could put him up to 60-70% of Goku's power.

Uh, within a few seconds, Kuririn was on the on the ground calling for mercy and Goku wasn't even slightly injured. How is that a "decent performance"? And, just so you know, I don't put a lot of stock in mathematical power gaps, especially during early Dragon Ball, when Ki wasn't the main deciding factor in a fight.

Goku was able to completely humiliate and pretty much oneshot the entirety of the Ginyu force and Captain Ginyu suggested he would only need a power level of 60,000 to do so, and given the fact that they're all around 40-45k range this would suggest a 1.33-1.5x gap is enough to dominate someone. Vegeta also easily jobbed Dodoria and Zarbon with even smaller gaps. You may not believe in mathematical power gaps but that page definitely suggests that Kuririn possesses more than half of Goku's strength.

[Nejishiki]

The main idea he was addressing was that ki management was different before God's lessons. In the period of the story you're referencing, ki was a mean for breaking beyond your body's limitations. Prior to that advanced technique, its usage was mostly for amplifying ki for large cost of your stamina and supporting the naturally-trained human body's attack power. It's a subtle difference since it almost sounds like I'm describing similar application, but it's a difference nonetheless. Battle power raising wasn't the same.

[Bullza]

An almighty ROFL stomp this is. The Goku who fought Zamasu was ridiculousy more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks in just his Base form. He felt the need to use SSJ2 against Zamasu.

How is this even comparable? Ultimate Gohan wouldn't stand a prayer of a chance of winning never mind SSJ2 Gohan.

If it were the manga version though then Gohan wins.

Not everyone takes Potaufeu "filler" Arc statements as something valuable to add in the series in terms of power levels, you should respect that, as people can still think that SSJ2 Goku is just stronger than his Boo Arc self, not by a immeasurable amount.

Huh? But it happened, you saw it happen and it fit perfectly with the level he should be at. Even ignoring that Base Goku and Vegeta at the start of the Resurrection F saga were both stronger than Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta who was stronger than Mystic Gohan.

Why would SSJ2 Goku now be insignificantly stronger than his Buu arc self when his Base form was shown to be leagues upon leagues above that during his fight with fight with Frieza?

There's nothing to respect there, that's just denial.

[TheUltimateNinja]

An almighty ROFL stomp this is. The Goku who fought Zamasu was ridiculousy more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks in just his Base form. He felt the need to use SSJ2 against Zamasu.

How is this even comparable? Ultimate Gohan wouldn't stand a prayer of a chance of winning never mind SSJ2 Gohan.

If it were the manga version though then Gohan wins.

Not everyone takes Potaufeu "filler" Arc statements as something valuable to add in the series in terms of power levels, you should respect that, as people can still think that SSJ2 Goku is just stronger than his Boo Arc self, not by a immeasurable amount.

Huh? But it happened, you saw it happen and it fit perfectly with the level he should be at. Even ignoring that Base Goku and Vegeta at the start of the Resurrection F saga were both stronger than Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta who was stronger than Mystic Gohan.

Why would SSJ2 Goku now be insignificantly stronger than his Buu arc self when his Base form was shown to be leagues upon leagues above that during his fight with fight with Frieza?

There's nothing to respect there, that's just denial.

You're about to start the two base theory argument all over again.

[DanielSSJ]

The main idea he was addressing was that ki management was different before God's lessons. In the period of the story you're referencing, ki was a mean for breaking beyond your body's limitations. Prior to that advanced technique, its usage was mostly for amplifying ki for large cost of your stamina and supporting the naturally-trained human body's attack power. It's a subtle difference since it almost sounds like I'm describing similar application, but it's a difference nonetheless. Battle power raising wasn't the same.

More or less. By the time everyone has trained with God, they're using Ki for everything, from enhancing their strength, to their defences, to their speed. During the early portions, Ki is mostly used for special attacks, like the Kamehameha.

I'd also add that, without such extensive Ki use in battle, some racial advantages may become more apparent. In the case of Goku, Kuririn, might posses a battle power (which is just a measurement of raw Ki energy) of greater than half of Goku's, but Goku is built stronger and tougher than Earthlings are, even at the same battle power. Even if Toriyama hadn't even considered making Goku an alien at this point, there is evidence that shows that Goku's a bit stronger than his skill level would suggest, such as him pushing the boulder further than the Turtle Hermit did, to being the only one without the cartoony bullet holes when Lunch shoots at him, Kuririn, and Muten Roshi.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The main idea he was addressing was that ki management was different before God's lessons. In the period of the story you're referencing, ki was a mean for breaking beyond your body's limitations. Prior to that advanced technique, its usage was mostly for amplifying ki for large cost of your stamina and supporting the naturally-trained human body's attack power. It's a subtle difference since it almost sounds like I'm describing similar application, but it's a difference nonetheless. Battle power raising wasn't the same.

More or less. By the time everyone has trained with God, they're using Ki for everything, from enhancing their strength, to their defences, to their speed. During the early portions, Ki is mostly used for special attacks, like the Kamehameha.

I'd also add that, without such extensive Ki use in battle, some racial advantages may become more apparent. In the case of Goku, Kuririn, might posses a battle power (which is just a measurement of raw Ki energy) of greater than half of Goku's, but Goku is built stronger and tougher than Earthlings are, even at the same battle power. Even if Toriyama hadn't even considered making Goku an alien at this point, there is evidence that shows that Goku's a bit stronger than his skill level would suggest, such as him pushing the boulder further than the Turtle Hermit did, to being the only one without the cartoony bullet holes when Lunch shoots at him, Kuririn, and Muten Roshi.

This could also be retroactively interpreted as Goku instinctively keeping a ki defense activated at all times, as we've seen in Super when Goku drops his ki he can be hurt very easily, yet as a child things generally did not hurt him at all even if he was caught off guard so he may have simply been defending himself with ki at all times without realizing it and upon training with Kami he learned how to control it.

[Zamasu55]

An almighty ROFL stomp this is. The Goku who fought Zamasu was ridiculousy more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks in just his Base form. He felt the need to use SSJ2 against Zamasu.

How is this even comparable? Ultimate Gohan wouldn't stand a prayer of a chance of winning never mind SSJ2 Gohan.

If it were the manga version though then Gohan wins.

Not everyone takes Potaufeu "filler" Arc statements as something valuable to add in the series in terms of power levels, you should respect that, as people can still think that SSJ2 Goku is just stronger than his Boo Arc self, not by a immeasurable amount.

Base form Frieza one-shotted Ssj Gohan, who was at least as strong as Ultimate Gohan due to his own words and how he managed to stomp Ginyu, who's at least Super Perfect Cell tier.
The Copy-Vegeta saga is just the confirmation. Characters like Ultimate Gohan and Ssj3 Gotenks are worthless now.

PS: How is he "just stronger" after almost 7 years of training, if we count the RoSaT too? I too am one of those who think the two-base theory is absolutely real (otherwise Piccolo would be SsjG tier and that's impossible), but anyway, Goku and Vegeta in their Ssj/Ssj2 states are much, much stronger than they were back in the Buu saga.

[TheUltimateNinja]

An almighty ROFL stomp this is. The Goku who fought Zamasu was ridiculousy more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks in just his Base form. He felt the need to use SSJ2 against Zamasu.

How is this even comparable? Ultimate Gohan wouldn't stand a prayer of a chance of winning never mind SSJ2 Gohan.

If it were the manga version though then Gohan wins.

Not everyone takes Potaufeu "filler" Arc statements as something valuable to add in the series in terms of power levels, you should respect that, as people can still think that SSJ2 Goku is just stronger than his Boo Arc self, not by a immeasurable amount.

Base form Frieza one-shotted Ssj Gohan, who was at least as strong as Ultimate Gohan due to his own words and how he managed to stomp Ginyu, who's at least Super Perfect Cell tier.
The Copy-Vegeta saga is just the confirmation. Characters like Ultimate Gohan and Ssj3 Gotenks are worthless now.

PS: How is he "just stronger" after almost 7 years of training, if we count the RoSaT too? I too am one of those who think the two-base theory is absolutely real (otherwise Piccolo would be SsjG tier and that's impossible), but anyway, Goku and Vegeta in their Ssj/Ssj2 states are much, much stronger than they were back in the Buu saga.

By my levels Piccolo is still below Cell Arc Goku.

[Zamasu55]

Not everyone takes Potaufeu "filler" Arc statements as something valuable to add in the series in terms of power levels, you should respect that, as people can still think that SSJ2 Goku is just stronger than his Boo Arc self, not by a immeasurable amount.

Base form Frieza one-shotted Ssj Gohan, who was at least as strong as Ultimate Gohan due to his own words and how he managed to stomp Ginyu, who's at least Super Perfect Cell tier.
The Copy-Vegeta saga is just the confirmation. Characters like Ultimate Gohan and Ssj3 Gotenks are worthless now.

PS: How is he "just stronger" after almost 7 years of training, if we count the RoSaT too? I too am one of those who think the two-base theory is absolutely real (otherwise Piccolo would be SsjG tier and that's impossible), but anyway, Goku and Vegeta in their Ssj/Ssj2 states are much, much stronger than they were back in the Buu saga.

By my levels Piccolo is still below Cell Arc Goku.

I think he's up there with Tagoma (post training),so Perfect Cell tier.
But that's not the point: The fight between Piccolo and Frost shows that the two-base theory is a real thing. Because evin if Frost was tired, there's no way Piccolo could have stood up to him, unless he was God tier, but he wasn't.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Base form Frieza one-shotted Ssj Gohan, who was at least as strong as Ultimate Gohan due to his own words and how he managed to stomp Ginyu, who's at least Super Perfect Cell tier.
The Copy-Vegeta saga is just the confirmation. Characters like Ultimate Gohan and Ssj3 Gotenks are worthless now.

PS: How is he "just stronger" after almost 7 years of training, if we count the RoSaT too? I too am one of those who think the two-base theory is absolutely real (otherwise Piccolo would be SsjG tier and that's impossible), but anyway, Goku and Vegeta in their Ssj/Ssj2 states are much, much stronger than they were back in the Buu saga.

By my levels Piccolo is still below Cell Arc Goku.

I think he's up there with Tagoma (post training),so Perfect Cell tier.
But that's not the point: The fight between Piccolo and Frost shows that the two-base theory is a real thing. Because evin if Frost was tired, there's no way Piccolo could have stood up to him, unless he was God tier, but he wasn't.

There's nothing to suggest Piccolo made such a large improvement in the time until the tournament, though, he's probably not a great deal stronger than he was in F.

[Angelus]

What's that two base theory?

Also,


SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu Arc) VS U6 Final Form Frieza

SSJ Cabba VS Full Power SSJG Goku (BoG)

[TheUltimateNinja]

What's that two base theory?

Also,


SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu Arc) VS U6 Final Form Frieza

SSJ Cabba VS Full Power SSJG Goku (BoG)

Basically it means Goku and Vegeta have a normal base and a Godly base, the normal base is the same as usual and isn't much stronger than before they obtained God ki, but their Godly bases have the power of SSG and are much stronger than the SSJ states.

- I think you mean Frost. Anyway, Gotenks should stomp, he's above Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku who is in turn superior to Tournament SSJ Goku.

- SSG Goku oneshots, Cabba isn't that good.

[Angelus]

How do we know if they're using god base or usual base? Will we only know if they turn into SSJB or SSJ afterwards? Like if they turned SSJB then their base form beforehand would be god base, but if we see them turn SSJ, then the form beforehand was the usual base? Because in BoG and his first battle with Beerus, he turned SSJ but that level of SSJ isn't the usual SSJ since he was able to keep up with Beerus.

[Noah]

Huh? But it happened, you saw it happen and it fit perfectly with the level he should be at. Even ignoring that Base Goku and Vegeta at the start of the Resurrection F saga were both stronger than Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta who was stronger than Mystic Gohan.

Why would SSJ2 Goku now be insignificantly stronger than his Buu arc self when his Base form was shown to be leagues upon leagues above that during his fight with fight with Frieza?

There's nothing to respect there, that's just denial.

No, was it didn't happened as the author didn't said anything about this arc, so is Toei original only. SSJ2 Goku is significantly than his self in Boo Arc, as he trained with Whis after all, but it stil arguable in Toriyama original outline for Super that the Saiyans are meant to be stronger than Majin Boo in Base.

[Bullza]

I think he's up there with Tagoma (post training),so Perfect Cell tier.
But that's not the point: The fight between Piccolo and Frost shows that the two-base theory is a real thing. Because evin if Frost was tired, there's no way Piccolo could have stood up to him, unless he was God tier, but he wasn't.

Well he didn't really stand up to him, he purposefully kept out of arms reach and didn't even try to physically attack him.

I think he's equal or superior to Tagoma so Perfect Cell tier makes sense. More so with the implication that Buu > Piccolo.

No, was it didn't happened as the author didn't said anything about this arc, so is Toei original only. SSJ2 Goku is significantly than his self in Boo Arc, as he trained with Whis after all, but it stil arguable in Toriyama original outline for Super that the Saiyans are meant to be stronger than Majin Boo in Base.

He wrote the Resurrection F movie where Base Goku was miles above SSJ2 Goku from the Buu arc. His outlines would continue on from that story. It's true for the Super anime aswell as many things suggest Base Goku > Mystic Gohan.

SSJ2 Goku in the Buu saga is dirt compared to Goku now.

If were talking about the manga version then it's all different because he never absorbed the power of God in that version.

[Zamasu55]

SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu Arc) VS U6 Final Form Frieza

SSJ Cabba VS Full Power SSJG Goku (BoG)

1. As I said earlier, Ssj3 Gotenks is a non-factor now. Frost takes this easily.
2. Ssj God Goku slaughters. He's on a completeley different level.

[DanielSSJ]

How do we know if they're using god base or usual base? Will we only know if they turn into SSJB or SSJ afterwards? Like if they turned SSJB then their base form beforehand would be god base, but if we see them turn SSJ, then the form beforehand was the usual base? Because in BoG and his first battle with Beerus, he turned SSJ but that level of SSJ isn't the usual SSJ since he was able to keep up with Beerus.

We don't. The theory only arose because Super has done jack all to explain how powerful everyone is. It all depends on which option you find more attractive: Goku and Vegeta have an unexplained trait where they can choose whether or not to pump up their normal forms with God Ki and achieve incredible power through it, and that without God Ki, they're not too much stronger than they were in the Boo arc, or that Goku and Vegeta are just that crazily strong, and guys like Piccolo, Frost, and Cabba could all give the top powers in the Boo Arc a run for their money for no particular reason.

Personally I prefer option C: Since Toyotaro's manga version of Super skipped over the Resurrection F storyline, there isn't much inherent evidence that Goku and Vegeta are all that strong outside of their God forms. No confusing (and poorly named) two-base theory, and no need for Piccolo and the U6 guys to be unreasonably powerful for no reason.

[AvatarReiko]

DBM SSJ3 Vegito vs Base Goku(ROF)