Yamcha and the bad taste situation

mecha3000 · Post by **mecha3000** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:10 am

So with the latest Super episode and Xenoverse, we know that Toei/Dimps is very aware of how the fanbase views Yamcha. But does anyone else think it's in bad taste? Dimps did the "Fake Death" Yamcha technique, which actually annoyed me because within the context of the original story (as created by Akira Toriyama): Yamcha's death was not a technique, it was - Well, his death. However, I admit it would've been different if he HAD faked his death in the manga and then surprised everyone. Then, I would consider "Fake Death" a badass technique.

Also, having Yamcha's pose be recreated in the Super episode is kind of annoying too. However, this is less annoying because I understand Yamcha's death is SADLY seen as his most iconic pose so on Toei's part - They probably felt it'd be nice to put a spin on the pose so it comes off as victorious instead of a defeat. Also, no one in the episode referenced the death in poor taste with even Piccolo mentioning it brings back bitter memories. I can even see a motivation for that pose recreation scene being to sell merchandise with victorious baseball Yamcha in the infamous pose.

But this brings me to my next point: The new Yamcha spinoff manga. For fans who don't know, the manga is basically a teenager who gets reincarnated as Yamcha within the DB-verse and uses his knowledge of the series to turn Yamcha into a badass. Honestly, it's an awesome idea that can be used to give Yamcha's character a nice reboot. But once again, it's NOT actually Yamcha (it's someone else in his body) AND it reinforces Yamcha's character further being seen as a complete joke.

However, perhaps this is a good thing? I mean, the fanbase ALREADY has been making fun of Yamcha for years so it's kind of nice to see the DB licensors in on the joke, for once. It's very modern in that way VERSUS how back in the day, ONLY the fans would ridicule Yamcha and it was almost like Toei was oblivious to this fact. While I do admit a big part of Yamcha's character is that he gets owned (even Toriyama demonstrates this several times in the manga), the "Fake Death" technique still shouldn't exist in my opinion.

Besides all that, I AM excited for this new Yamcha manga. I know this sounds far-fetched, but I wouldn't mind if we even got it adapted as a short-running anime in the vein of the Naruto: Rock Lee SD spinoff anime. With Yamcha (reincarnation) knowing the events of the manga, it'd be interesting if IN THE ANIME he tried to awaken Goku's Super Saiyan form earlier by killing Krillin himself (knowing the dragon balls can wish him back) and then proceeds to get his ass kicked by Goku.

precita · Post by **precita** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:13 am

Yamcha is one of the most popular characters and his voice actor is legendary in Japan. I think some of you don't understand Toei is banking on the popularity of the character now due to internet meme status.

Otherwise he would just be ignored and they wouldn't bother.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:43 am

I don't like it one bit. Turning the characters in caricatures of themselves, cough Goku in Super* cough, or distorted notions uninformed fans have is taking away everything else they might have.
For example, in the recent episode Yamcha should excel at baseball and while he gets a moment to show his skills it quickly unravels into a mockery. You can make fun of the character without turning it into a joke. Reusing memes shouldn't ever be praise, it's brainless and easy.

Ironically if Mr.Toriyama saw all the jokes the fans make, he would probably turn Yamcha into a badass. Since he enjoys going against people expectations.

*Only some episodes, not all of them.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:11 am

I think if you're personifying the character that much that you can't recognize the self-aware fun being had in each and every situation where it comes up by these writers and producers, then you have deeper issues to work on.

There was nothing "brainless" about the baseball episode. Every single moment was calculated to make you smile as wide as possible. There were cheap jokes and there were long-tail jokes with everything in between. Quite frankly, I saw it as the most well-written and balanced humor episode in a very long time.

If Yamcha had absolutely no redeeming characteristics to him, he wouldn't be used at all for these ancillary productions. There wouldn't be light-hearted humor behind it; the "joke" in each case would be a literally-written insult, which is not the case. I'm at a complete loss for how someone wouldn't be able to see this.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:06 am

It was brainless in the sense that there was barely any attempt to subvert this self-aware take on the character. It was mostly, Yamcha's a joke so the script is: copy his dying position, let him get hit by the ball, get elbowed, etc ...
What deserves praise to me is that moment Yamcha says "I will not die here. I will not die here!". Much better humour than "dying" and reaching base(not sure that's the term) to win the game.
There's a few good moments in the episode. Although what people will likely remember is everyone played baseball, Yamcha got wrecked as per usual.

If you remember the wish to revive Kaio episode, there we have Pilaf doing his evil routine and getting smacked three times in a row by everyone that was arriving. Is this type of humour I believe deserves to be described as easy and brainless, which has been getting more frequent in Dragon Ball.

That's what my whole point is about. I understand very well what they tried to do. You think it's well written, I don't for the most part. This tendency is what concerns me.
Another example, turning Goku into an idiot when Beerus posed as Monaka. It's for the sake of comedy but you can do comedy with some depth and not use a single trait and hammer it down for most of an episode.

By the way it's not nice to say I have issues because I might or not fail to recognize a situation/pattern. That's the polite way of saying: if you can't see this then you're stupid.
It's one thing to point towards me having a wrong or biased opinion. Another to say I have issues because I might have that opinion.

ParkerAL · Post by **ParkerAL** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:06 pm

LightBing wrote: By the way it's not nice to say I have issues because I might or not fail to recognize a situation/pattern. That's the polite way of saying: if you can't see this then you're stupid.
It's one thing to point towards me having a wrong or biased opinion. Another to say I have issues because I might have that opinion.

Perhaps it's not my place to say, but that was rather harsh, I agree.

Who moderates the moderator?

mecha3000 · Post by **mecha3000** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:52 pm

ParkerAL wrote:
LightBing wrote: By the way it's not nice to say I have issues because I might or not fail to recognize a situation/pattern. That's the polite way of saying: if you can't see this then you're stupid.
It's one thing to point towards me having a wrong or biased opinion. Another to say I have issues because I might have that opinion.
Perhaps it's not my place to say, but that was rather harsh, I agree.

Who moderates the moderator?

Yeah, I saw that comment too and I was like: "Is that directed towards me for having my own opinion?" I mean, I did acknowledge that Toei's handling of Yamcha in the baseball episode was in good taste because it turned his worst defeat into a victorious moment AND I said Yamcha's character might be getting a nice little reboot in his (OR the fan character's) new manga.

Still, the "Fake Death" Xenoverse technique is still in bad taste. I know it's a video game and it's just for fun, but come on: You don't see Goku's death at the beginning of Z being turned into "Fake Death Kamehameha" or something like that. I suppose Yamcha was doomed to be ridiculed in Xenoverse because of his reputation, but I still don't like it. Perhaps, the deeper issues comment was suggesting that fans like me are being too uptight with the situation and I understand this. But I still stand by my opinion.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:08 pm

Maybe it was written offhand a bit harsh, and I apologize for it coming out that way. I really do feel, however, that if you're that deep into defending the honor of a character, it's just not healthy for your fandom. Not every character can be the shining spotlight of perfection. Everyone has faults, and life isn't going to work out perfectly for each and every one of them. That's what makes them endearing, deep, lovable characters to so many of us. That Yamcha still comes out on top in the end despite all the "bad" things you're describing? Isn't that precisely the "subversion" you're looking for?

mecha3000 wrote:You don't see Goku's death at the beginning of Z being turned into "Fake Death Kamehameha" or something like that

Tons of iconic poses in Xenoverse 2 are openly mocked by NPCs. I, for one, would welcome more death poses, but I can't think of any offhand that are particularly noteworthy. Yamcha's really the only one.

ParkerAL wrote:Who moderates the moderator?

The other moderators, administrators, and the entire community. Call me or anyone else out on anything you feel deserves it (preferably through the notification tool so it can be reviewed), and someone will address it. We're not perfect, but we try.

mecha3000 · Post by **mecha3000** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:15 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Maybe it was written offhand a bit harsh, and I apologize for it coming out that way. I really do feel, however, that if you're that deep into defending the honor of a character, it's just not healthy for your fandom. Not every character can be the shining spotlight of perfection. Everyone has faults, and life isn't going to work out perfectly for each and every one of them. That's what makes them endearing, deep, lovable characters to so many of us. That Yamcha still comes out on top in the end despite all the "bad" things you're describing? Isn't that precisely the "subversion" you're looking for?

mecha3000 wrote:You don't see Goku's death at the beginning of Z being turned into "Fake Death Kamehameha" or something like that
Tons of iconic poses in Xenoverse 2 are openly mocked by NPCs. I, for one, would welcome more death poses, but I can't think of any offhand that are particularly noteworthy. Yamcha's really the only one.

Oh - Well, thanks for being cool about everyone's thoughts. And once again, I do respect Toei for subverting Yamcha's DEFEAT pose into a VICTORY pose. Also, you're right about characters not always getting the spotlight. Honestly, as happy that I am about Gohan seemingly returning to become a warrior - It still annoys me that many fans simply can't understand that Gohan is not a fighter and instead ended up becoming a scholar by choice. That kind of thing makes me understand where you're coming from.

Also, as much as I'd like for Yamcha to have a role alongside the likes of Roshi, Krillin, Tien, and 17 (seemingly his replacement) in the next arc - I admit that the fans won't always get what they want.

ParkerAL · Post by **ParkerAL** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:38 pm

VegettoEX wrote:The other moderators, administrators, and the entire community. Call me or anyone else out on anything you feel deserves it (preferably through the notification tool so it can be reviewed), and someone will address it. We're not perfect, but we try.

Oh, I totally understand this, and I appreciate that Kanzenshuu goes out its way to maintain balanced moderation. My comment was meant as a playful jab, not a question of the site's integrity or anything of the kind.

BlazingFiddlesticks · Post by **BlazingFiddlesticks** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:47 pm

I think throwing in the death pose lead some people to think that Toei was being somehow mean-spirited or memetic, e.g. "You think this character is a wash so we will just keep telling you that over and over in place of any real attempt at humor." That is not really what happened, though. Until the Z-era, Yamcha was always the guy who knew the most and failed anyway, so his fate as a glutton for punishment was spot on, and I think we got all of the most important beats a modern Yamcha episode would need- recognition that the game energizes him, that its one world in which he can top Goku and Vegeta, and even the death pose is laughing with, not so much at him- and of course his being the only one on the field with any idea of what he was doing winning what was left of the game.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:30 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Maybe it was written offhand a bit harsh, and I apologize for it coming out that way. I really do feel, however, that if you're that deep into defending the honor of a character, it's just not healthy for your fandom. Not every character can be the shining spotlight of perfection. Everyone has faults, and life isn't going to work out perfectly for each and every one of them. That's what makes them endearing, deep, lovable characters to so many of us. That Yamcha still comes out on top in the end despite all the "bad" things you're describing? Isn't that precisely the "subversion" you're looking for?

Yes, that's the subversion I meant. I miscommunicated my point. I would look at the last scene of the game favourably, if they didn't massacre the character for 2/3 of the episode.
Execution is what concerns me, which dilutes their intentions. The characters don't come off favourably, or the stabs they give them don't come of as harmless fun. Because all people will remember, generally speaking, is Yamcha getting wrecked yet again.
While that should be part of what the character is, it shouldn't be absolute.

It's reducing the character to stereotypes of themselves. Which by default cheapens everything they are. I'm probably painting a darker picture than it actually is, however I fear that this tendency will continue and the writers might sit on this comfortably.
I want them to balance the good traits and the bad traits, in the recent episode that wasn't present well enough in my opinion.

I don't think the characters need any protection or are due respect, the writers are law. My favourite character Vegeta has been mocked a bunch in Super, I'm fine with it. Some of these moments are my favourites in Super, because they did it well.

Akyon · Post by **Akyon** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:56 pm

As a fellow Yamcha fan(second favourite after Krillin, imagine what my Dragonball fandom life must be like amongst the casual fanbase) I honestly didn't see what you're talking about within the baseball episode.

When everyone else ran for cover, Yamcha made it to the home plate, won the game and got to make the symbol of his failure a symbol of redemption and victory. That he got comically beaten up doesn't bother me considering they also gave him a few cool moments pitching and everyone seemed impressed with his actual baseball skill and even the funniest line in the episode where he burns Tenshinhan.

The one thing within that episode I will concede however is everyone's reaction to Yamcha's pose. They seemed a little too uncaring if Yamcha was even alive when they first spotted him in the crater.

Honestly, this episode gave me some excellent Yamcha moments and it's exactly what I was looking for. A perfect blend of badass Yamcha moments when he was playing baseball, even a return of the cocky and confident Yamcha, and comic relief moments and 'am I going to die in this game' Yamcha.

The Yamcha manga I don't see as an insult either. That 'Yamcha' is considered important enough to get the first Dragonball spinoff is kind of mind blowing when you think about it, and everyone seems to love it that I've spoken to thus far. 2016 is turning into quite the year for the often forgotten Turtle School student.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:41 pm

mecha3000 wrote:So with the latest Super episode and Xenoverse, we know that Toei/Dimps is very aware of how the fanbase views Yamcha. But does anyone else think it's in bad taste?

No more than the universe shitting on Wile E. Coyote constantly. Or Kenny McCormick. Or Charlie Brown. Yamcha is a comedic cartoon character meant to suffer for our amusement, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Also, having Yamcha's pose be recreated in the Super episode is kind of annoying too.

Hey, that was Super's absolute best moment and possibly its sole redeeming quality outside of Zamasu and Magetta. Don't ruin this for me.

However, perhaps this is a good thing? I mean, the fanbase ALREADY has been making fun of Yamcha for years so it's kind of nice to see the DB licensors in on the joke, for once.

Dude, this is not new. Yamcha's death pose and general weakness have been officially acknowledged in games and such for quite a while. Toriyama even constantly pointed out and laughed about Yamcha's pathetic nature both in the manga itself and in interviews conducted around the same time as it was being written. There was a really good interview where Yamcha's voice actor recalls an anecdote where he asked Toriyama about why his character got screwed over so hard in the Android arc, and Toriyama's response basically amounted to "because he sucks lol".

MFR55 · Post by **MFR55** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:46 pm

I'm just enjoying the fact at least one character from the Original DB cast is having a chance 2 shine on super(exceptions being Goku and bulma[who is having some screentime on super])

precita · Post by **precita** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:52 pm

You guys do realize Toei loves Yamcha right? Half the best Yamcha moments in the anime were filler Toei came up with.

Yamcha beating Recoome, beating Olibu in the Buu arc, Yamcha helping out against Perfect Cell. They also gave him a lot more scenes in Dragonball where they showed how he won the preliminary matches in fights when in the manga it was all off-screen. The Yamcha Vs. Tenshinan fight in the anime was also much better than the manga.

Seriously, if anything Toei is Yamcha's best friend.

PelicanDynasty · Post by **PelicanDynasty** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:29 pm

I actually watched this baseball episode even though I haven't seen any of Super and I'd say his portrayal was pretty fair. He's clearly the best at baseball, but athletically he's completely outclassed. He even gets to be the hero despite being beat up. Seems like he got a pretty good deal to me, especially since they're all cheap shots. Nobody actually beats him in a fight.

The_Destroyer · Post by **The_Destroyer** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:22 pm

I don't find the episode an insult because they actually let Yamcha shine in this episode. Sure he was hurt a lot of the time, but the episode wouldn't be that funny if they didn't have those moments.

What I do think find insulting is the absence of Yamcha from fights where the other Z-fighters are taking part. i'm not just talking about RoF, I'm also referring to the fact that Toyatoro left Future Yamcha out of the panel where the Future Z-Fighters were fighting the Androids in the bonus chapter. And that was a fight he was confirmed to be in! And as for RoF, if Roshi and Jaco could fight soldiers, so could Yamcha. It's been said many times before. I'm glad they acknowledged that his absence was unfair with that Tien burn in episode 70, but it means nothing when they're apparently pulling that same shit again in the next arc.

Soppa Saia People · Post by **Soppa Saia People** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:27 pm

At least with this new episode, Yamucha is still the filler king.

emi_b7 · Post by **emi_b7** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:19 am

I loved the baseball episode. The one moment where I felt they were joking about Yamcha a bit too much was when Bulma made the "he is ONLY good at baseball" comment. If an ex girlfriend ever said something like that about me I would be devastated lol
Also, most of the jokes where he gets hit or whatever "Yamcha jokes" as much as jokes about the other characters (Champa is too competitive and doesn't know the rules, Goku pitched as a SSB, Vegeta thinks he can hit people, etc). Yamcha, being the only one who knows how to play, was playing the straight man character among a cast of crazy, overpowered people in the episode. And he looked great IMO.
As for Xenoverse, I thought that move was lame. No because it was disrespectful or a joke move. I just found it.... lame.
Anyway, I thought that this was a great week to be a Yamcha fan. I don't think you could say that at any point in the past 20 years or so

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