Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

Does Black use Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 in the manga?

That you can never really tell makes the form probably the worst one of the lot.

It's look like he transforms into a SSJ given how his hairstyle is at the end of the chapter. The power up into the form with the lightning aura was just for show. Kinda like SSJ Vegetto.

[Bullza]

So in the anime when Goku fought Black in the present and then present Zamasu what form was he using there?

[ekrolo2]

So in the anime when Goku fought Black in the present and then present Zamasu what form was he using there?

He's using SS2, Toei correctly animates his lightning (mostly) and his hair is appropriate. This is why I think Black is only using SS1 in the manga, Toyotaro is REALLY good at keeping stuff like this consistent so I doubt he's randomly deciding to screw details like these up.

[ZombieVito]

I'm wondering that too. They're bringing back characters like Boo, Piccolo, #17 and Gohan possibly in his Mystic form so it should give us an idea again how characters compare.

Even if it were Mystic Gohan he should still be an absolute chump compared to Base Goku.

Hopefully they explain that Gohan did retain his former powers and at the same time proves to be stronger than Piccolo to at least but that whole Piccolo God level stuff to rest.

Piccolo god tier? He's at best Ultimate-ish Gohan tier and base Goku/Vegeta are Buuhan tier since copy Vegeta couldn't kill Gotenks in the whole 5 minutes of the fusion.

[Bullza]

There's still that half of people who believe that Piccolo over Base Goku and Vegeta based on the Frost fight. That's the entire reason the two base theory came to be.

If the upcoming arc can solidify where Piccolo stands in comparison without any room for doubt then it would clear up one of the most discussed topics in this thread and put that theory to rest though I think at this point it's mostly died out anyway.

[ZombieVito]

I'll die of laughter if the opposite happens and it gets confirmed.

[ChiefWamsutta]

After Whis trained Goku and Vegeta in the ROF arc they surpassed EP 14 Goku in their base forms

Really cool stuff! I independently came to a very similar conclusion, although I would make some minor tweaks. I agree with you that Goku's Base when he fights Frieza is mortal ki and not god ki because Krillin can sense it.

1) Whis mentions there being a level of the gods. This can be implied as SSB level. The reason Goku and Vegeta saw some of the blue ki when they didn't let their ki leak out was not because they unlocked SSB form or god ki. No, they just got closer than they ever had to the level of the gods i.e. SSB level.

2) This can be backed up by Trunks' "Super Trunks" form. He is in Super Saiyan form that is so powerful it is eliciting partial blue god ki in his aura. This means he is closer to the level of the gods than Goku and Vegeta were in their base forms when they didn't let their ki leak out. They only barely created blue god ki. This means he is closer to the level of the SSB, but not there yet. We did not see any eliciting of blue ki when Goku was in his Ep. 14 Super Saiyan form, or when they powered-up their base forms. It was only when they condensed their ki into their body and did not let it out were they eliciting blue ki. God ki has been implied to be either blue or red throughout Dragon Ball Super, and since we don't see red god ki anymore, blue ki means god ki.

Super Saiyan God = Ritual Super Saiyan (Goku's Episode 14 form. I call it this because it is a result of the SSGod Ritual) < Ki-Condensed Base (Goku's form against RoF Frieza, against Hit, against Monaka-Beerus, and Copy-Vegeta's form against SS3 Gotenks) < Super Saiyan Demigod (Super Trunks form, which I call because it has some yellow mortal ki and some blue god ki) < Super Saiyan Blue = Super Saiyan Rose (Basically, Super Saiyan Blue of Son Goku's body but turns Rose with Zamasu's ki)

3) Also Vegeta is implied to sense Super Saiyan God Goku during his fight with Beerus. This seems that he had to have reached the level for sensing god ki. I can't think of any other way around why he seems like he could. That's a potential error if the Oracle Fish says he has just reached it after training with Whis.

[Simere]

There's still that half of people who believe that Piccolo over Base Goku and Vegeta based on the Frost fight. That's the entire reason the two base theory came to be.

I'd been hearing about the two base theory long before that. It mainly stems from that Toriyama quote and "Saiyan beyond God".

[HeroR]

There's still that half of people who believe that Piccolo over Base Goku and Vegeta based on the Frost fight. That's the entire reason the two base theory came to be.

I'd been hearing about the two base theory long before that. It mainly stems from that Toriyama quote and "Saiyan beyond God".

Toriyama has never said anything about Saiyan beyond God. That term was coin in Dragon Ball Heroes.

[Simere]

There's still that half of people who believe that Piccolo over Base Goku and Vegeta based on the Frost fight. That's the entire reason the two base theory came to be.

I'd been hearing about the two base theory long before that. It mainly stems from that Toriyama quote and "Saiyan beyond God".

Toriyama has never said anything about Saiyan beyond God. That term was coin in Dragon Ball Heroes.

That "and" was to signify I was talking about two different things.

[buutenks]

Does Black use Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 in the manga?

That you can never really tell makes the form probably the worst one of the lot.

U cannot tell because the chapter isn't out yet. So only a few pages have been leaked.

Black's hair is ssj2 with lightning, then we see it ssj2 again, and then it drops to ssj style as he is about to feint.

The ssj part people are talking about is after Zamasu saves Black and the fight stopped.

Also, ssj1 Vegeta kicked base Black,base Black blocks with both arms but is sent backwards a good 10 meters.

That is all about the leaked scans.

[Bullza]

I'd been hearing about the two base theory long before that. It mainly stems from that Toriyama quote and "Saiyan beyond God".

Beforehand there were two bases in the sense there was the weak Base Goku and then the God level Base Goku after he'd absorbed it's power but it wasn't until the Piccolo vs Frost fight that this idea that he could freely switch between the two came about.

If we could just know outright that Piccolo is weaker than Base Goku for definite then that would really help.

[HeroR]

That "and" was to signify I was talking about two different things.

Even then, all Toriyama said that Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God and we see base from Goku beat a stronger than ever Freeza and it was major marketer point that he wouldn't need Super Saiyan. So how does that lead into the two base theory. It's actually the opposite.

[Hugo Boss]

That's what I said.

The way you put is like the side effects of the kaioken would stop it from being an option in battle. Goku used it either way.

No, what I said was the side effects of the Kaioken would prevent him from winning. Even if he managed to surpass Merged Zamasu briefly, he'd burn out too quickly to defeat him as Zamasu is immortal. However if he didn't have any sort of time or stamina limit and could sustain the Kaioken indefinitely, he could eventually beat Zamasu down until his body dispels and he takes on his ethereal form.

Goku didn't imply Potara is a better option than Kaioken because of the side effects. It's like saying SS would be better than SS3. If by any chance Kaioken makes Goku stronger than Zamasu for a while it would still be an option, even if he couldn't win. Since he damaged Zamasu, he realized immortality wouldn't get in his way anymore. That's what Vegetto said.

[Bullza]

How strong is Master Roshi supposed to be now? They're using him again it seems even though he was supposed to completely useless throughout the events of Z.

I read something somewhere for Resurrection F about how Roshi was always so strong but I don't know if that were true or not.

Shouldn't his power level be no more than a couple hundred? Did he have some plot boost aswell?

[HeroR]

How strong is Master Roshi supposed to be now? They're using him again it seems even though he was supposed to completely useless throughout the events of Z.

I read something somewhere for Resurrection F about how Roshi was always so strong but I don't know if that were true or not.

Shouldn't his power level be no more than a couple hundred? Did he have some plot boost aswell?

Buff Roshi blew up the moon, the same feat Piccolo did when his power level was in the 3 to 4 hundreds. That's a starting point.

[Noah]

I think Roshi is probably stronger than Nappa nowadays

[HeroR]

I think Roshi is probably stronger than Nappa nowadays

I doubt it. Roshi only beat up second-rate fodder in Reserrection 'F' who was likely weaker than Raditz.

[Noah]

I think Roshi is probably stronger than Nappa nowadays

I doubt it. Roshi only beat up second-rate fodder in Reserrection 'F' who was likely weaker than Raditz.

Impossible. As Freeza noted that his army grew weaker after his death, 4 months is time enough to have some improvements (not only for himself) and I thought 1,000 is the average battle power of the soldiers, is not believable that many of them were weaker than Raditz, that would indicate that guys like Gohan and Piccolo were a hell lot suppressed then.

[HeroR]

Impossible. As Freeza noted that his army grew weaker after his death, 4 months is time enough to have some improvements (not only for himself) and I thought 1,000 is the average battle power of the soldiers, is not believable that many of them were weaker than Raditz, that would indicate that guys like Gohan and Piccolo were a hell lot suppressed then.

Freeza called them weak and second-rate during the battle. Only the elites jumped in power. And we know that Piccolo and Gohan were holding back because they were trying not to kill anyone.

An average power level was never giving for the Freeza Force. Only that a power level of 1000 was pathetic, most got killed by a power level of 3000, and that was before the standards dropped.