Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[neolux]

When I first saw the NEP I didn't think there was something wrong with it, just Goku's weird face that looks like Vegeta, otherwise, I didn't think it was bad, but reading people's comments in social media makes me think that the majority it's just overreacting. Is it some kind of "trauma" that Ep 5 created on the fandom? haha xD

[JazzMazz]

When I first saw the NEP I didn't think there was something wrong with it, just Goku's weird face that looks like Vegeta, otherwise, I didn't think it was bad, but reading people's comments in social media makes me think that the majority it's just overreacting. Is it some kind of "trauma" that Ep 5 created on the fandom? haha xD

I've seen the episode five response as well. Some people have even said that it's one of Tates worst episodes right next to episodes five, and the episode hasn't even come out yet.

[Ajay]

I just realized that you got up to date on your animation roundup series Ajay, great job as always.
I was actually wondering just yesterday if you were just going to wait until the next arc to start it back up.

Thanks! Yeah, I didn't think it was worth posting in here as it was so out of date, and most people know the stuff I covered already. I guess if anyone does want to watch it, here's a link.

I've seen the episode five response as well. Some people have even said that it's one of Tates worst episodes right next to episodes five, and the episode hasn't even come out yet.

I kinda don't really blame people for talking about episode 5, even if it usually is for an exaggerated comparison. It absolutely does deserves criticism, but I wish fans would actually include episodes like 24 and 33 if they really want to go there. Let's also talk about why they were bad, though! Episode 5's collapse has been beaten to death, so let's talk about Kitano being thrown under the bus for #24, or even make a guess as to what the hell happened with #33. That'd be fun! Memes sure are hard to shake, though.

As for #72, honestly, I've been disappointed with the reaction from both sides (and that includes some of my own comments, too). I feel saddened and partly responsible for the "Tate draws bad for movement!" defense rhetoric that has been going around, as I feel like it's a bit of a warped version of my explanation that he simplifies the character sheets to match and facilitate his movement, which is of course very different. I feel like it does a disservice to him and comes across like an excuse for poor work when in some cases, it's not poor work, and an explanation of a style would be better suited. That said, he's capable of, and has done some poor work, and we are allowed to acknowledge that! Parts of that RoSaT scene sure aren't the best. It's easy to fall into a bubble of appreciation and forget to be realistic.

I think we're all aware that the NEP isn't flawless: Goku with Vegeta's face is not right as I pointed out before we even saw this NEP, Beerus looks off, and even fan-favourite Karasawa's work/correction seems rougher than normal. It's not a perfect NEP by any means, and it may well be rushed episode, as many of these recent ones have been. More critically, it's also not awful. While Tate's controversial style (admittedly in a sketchier #26-esque state) is on show, it's not out of proportion, and nobody's running around with a wonky face like your bad Kitano episodes. The actual movement appears well executed, and the explosions look fantastic. At the same time, I think it's important to be sympathetic to those who don't actively look at that stuff. If you don't know Tate and what those snippets of movement and effects may mean in full context, then your focus is going to be on the character art which is undeniably inconsistent with what Super looks like from week to week. People react negatively to sudden website layout changes all the time, I don't think this is particularly different. Heck, I didn't like Manabe for the longest time for similar reason.

At this point, I just want to see the episode so I can talk about it in its full context, and not just short snippets in a 20 second montage. For all we know, Karasawa may dominate the episode, meaning Tate's action is just a cool (if divisive) action scene in an otherwise standard-looking episode. Hey, maybe the action is the only good part, and the rest of it is super scribbled out and poor. Maybe the action is bad on the whole and Karasawa's the only saviour. Who knows!

Part of me worries the pessimism is too high to come back from, and that some folks will have made their minds up already. Part of me typing this is making it very clear that I'm more than happy to acknowledge issues if there are any! I really hope it goes both ways when the time comes. I know it won't across the entire web, but at least in this community, I hope it does. I really wanna pop in here on Saturday night and have a meaty discussion free of hyperbole!

(I swear to god I've had an existential breakdown over the past few days)

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I feel saddened and partly responsible for the "Tate draws bad for movement!" defense rhetoric that has been going around, as I feel like it's a bit of a warped version of my explanation that he simplifies the character sheets to match and facilitate his movement, which is of course very different.

I don't think anyone defending him was actually saying that he drew bad for the sake of movement. That came more from the crowd that don't like Tate. If we didn't like his artwork too, his movement wouldn't matter.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

My stance on Tate is clear. I like his work the most out of all the Super regulars cause I like his drawings. That simple and off-model drawings is the reason why it appeals to me. His art isn't bad. It's different and most Dragon Ball fans, in fact anime fans can't handle anything that is different and start complaining.

Tate is a good animator cause he draws just as well as much he moves things well. Art and animation go hand-in-hand. They can't be separated. I like Yamashita Shingo's minimalist art which is exactly why I like his animation and how he makes things move interestingly for example.

As for the episode, I hope Tate handles at least one entire half. And, please no corrections. I have said it before and I'll say it again unfiltered Tate is best Tate.

[kinisking]

It seems like Miyuki Yokohama has a great art style. I would love for her to appear on the show more often.

[Makai]

I keep rewatching the NEP, and I don't understand what's the problem with it. And I've criticized Tate a lot. The art does seem kind of off, but it looks like the usual Tate episodes, and not even that bad. Seems like people are used to all the good animation recently, and can't handle the quality going back down even a little bit.

[Ki Breaker]

I keep rewatching the NEP, and I don't understand what's the problem with it. And I've criticized Tate a lot. The art does seem kind of off, but it looks like the usual Tate episodes, and not even that bad. Seems like people are used to all the good animation recently, and can't handle the quality going back down even a little bit.

The problem is Tate..
I tried to get into animation because of super and the only type I understand as of now is Tate, you know why? Whatever looks awful to me is always by him, Everytime..
Its not because the quality is down or anything, I can see the animation is good, but his style is just feels bad to me..

I presume a lot of people feel the same way, the visuals are not pleasing hence the hate on nep, most don't even understand if animation is reused or only one picture is given the illusion of movement..

[ArchedThunder]

I tried to get into animation because of super and the only type I understand as of now is Tate, you know why? Whatever looks awful to me is always by him, Everytime..

This is so incredibly wrong it's not even funny. The worst stuff in the series is absolutely hideous and it's not Tate stuff.

[Ki Breaker]

I tried to get into animation because of super and the only type I understand as of now is Tate, you know why? Whatever looks awful to me is always by him, Everytime..

This is so incredibly wrong it's not even funny. The worst stuff in the series is absolutely hideous and it's not Tate stuff.

I could be very wrong, I am new to animation so I am not even going to try to argue..
But my point still stands buddy, Tate's style looks bad to me, Everytime..
I don't understand how this could be very wrong.. It's not like I am trying to make his stuff bad for me..

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I tried to get into animation because of super and the only type I understand as of now is Tate, you know why? Whatever looks awful to me is always by him, Everytime..

Probably for the same reason as everyone else, he's pretty much the only regular that doesn't follow the model sheets. It looks bad to you because it's so inconsistent with the rest of the show. If we had a Dragon Ball series where Tate's was the standard look, I have a feeling that an animator with an overly-shaded, hyper-jagged, glowing designs that most of the animators use right now would be reviled. Because like I said, it's all about consistency for most., regardless of intent.

[JazzMazz]

I tried to get into animation because of super and the only type I understand as of now is Tate, you know why? Whatever looks awful to me is always by him, Everytime..

This is so incredibly wrong it's not even funny. The worst stuff in the series is absolutely hideous and it's not Tate stuff.

I could be very wrong, I am new to animation so I am not even going to try to argue..
But my point still stands buddy, Tate's style looks bad to me, Everytime..
I don't understand how this could be very wrong.. It's not like I am trying to make his stuff bad for me..

I think you just need to get used to the chubbier and cuter looking layouts of how he draws characters. His work is not bad by any stretch, most of the time, his work is correctly proportioned and is just a lot simpler and even bare bones at time. The best example I can think of this from the NEP would be this adorable shot of Hit.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
The eyes are a bit smaller, the nose is far less pointy and the lips are slightly more pronounced, but there is nothing really bad about the art in this instance.

[Ki Breaker]

I tried to get into animation because of super and the only type I understand as of now is Tate, you know why? Whatever looks awful to me is always by him, Everytime..

Probably for the same reason as everyone else, he's pretty much the only regular that doesn't follow the model sheets. It looks bad to you because it's so inconsistent with the rest of the show. If we had a Dragon Ball series where Tate's was the standard look, I have a feeling that an animator with an overly-shaded, hyper-jagged, glowing designs that most of the animators use right now would be reviled. Because like I said, it's all about consistency for most., regardless of intent.

Ya, that pretty much covers it

I think you just need to get used to the chubbier and cuter looking layouts of how he draws characters. His work is not bad by any stretch, most of the time, his work is correctly proportioned and just has a lot simpler, even bare bones look. The best example I can think of this from the NEP would be this adorable shot of Hit.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
The eyes are a bit smaller, the nose is far less pointy and the lips are slightly more pronounced, but there is nothing really bad about the art in this instance.

So what you are basically saying is his work is an acquired taste..

[Sodhi]

#63 image just leaked

Sakai Hiroyuki is supposed to be the AS.

[JazzMazz]

I tried to get into animation because of super and the only type I understand as of now is Tate, you know why? Whatever looks awful to me is always by him, Everytime..

Probably for the same reason as everyone else, he's pretty much the only regular that doesn't follow the model sheets. It looks bad to you because it's so inconsistent with the rest of the show. If we had a Dragon Ball series where Tate's was the standard look, I have a feeling that an animator with an overly-shaded, hyper-jagged, glowing designs that most of the animators use right now would be reviled. Because like I said, it's all about consistency for most., regardless of intent.

Ya, that pretty much covers it

I think you just need to get used to the chubbier and cuter looking layouts of how he draws characters. His work is not bad by any stretch, most of the time, his work is correctly proportioned and just has a lot simpler, even bare bones look. The best example I can think of this from the NEP would be this adorable shot of Hit.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
The eyes are a bit smaller, the nose is far less pointy and the lips are slightly more pronounced, but there is nothing really bad about the art in this instance.

So what you are basically saying is his work is an acquired taste..

Yes, it is an acquired taste. However, even if I didn't like his style, I wouldn't call it bad, I would simply state my distaste for it.
In my opinion, the only Tate episode that fans and non-fans would be able to enjoy, would be #11, since Tate just delivers strong character art and doesn't do anything particularly flashy with the animation.(you wouldn't be able to enjoy it unless you are one of those people that cherry pick inbetweens)

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Ki Breaker, just try to look past the on-model drawings. The character sheets are just for reference which the animator may or may not follow. By the way the best animators, the most recognized ones have their own distinct style and they don't focus on being on-model which is why they are considered good and continue to get work.

It makes sense, doesn't it? Why would you bring your top talents to produce the same on-model safe work just for consistency sake. That's stupid.
For example, nobody knows or cares much about Ishikawa Osamu who sticks close to the models and barely produces any good cuts, but somebody like Shida Naotoshi will get hype. Shida throws the models in the garbage bin and does what he does best. Shida style is always off-model. Shida isn't brought on board to maintain consistency, he is there so that he can go all out and produce a high quality cut for an important scene. Same thing with Tate.

If all animators did were be on-model, nobody would even recognize any style and it would be impossible to know who did what. Japanese animation isn't like Western animation. It gives more emphasis to individual styles and let them shine.

[ArchedThunder]

#63 image just leaked

Sakai Hiroyuki is supposed to be the AS.

Hard to draw any conclusions on his style or how the episode will look based on this, but I like the shading. Behind the back light source shading isn't done enough.

[Ki Breaker]

Ki Breaker, just try to look past the on-model drawings. The character sheets are just for reference which the animator may or may not follow. By the way the best animators, the most recognized ones have their own distinct style and they don't focus on being on-model which is why they are considered good and continue to get work.

It makes sense, doesn't it?

It makes sense,if I understood this correctly, he is a good animator and has his own distinct style, so he manages to pump out greatly detailed animation as he dosen't need to stick to model for every shot..
This rises a question in my mind, why doesn't on model staying people do shots which are stills and in between is provided by Tate? Wouldn't this help reduce complaints about off model art..

I don't know who did the goku and Vegeta training sequence, but it looked very odd to me, so I am assuming it was done by Tate ( if not let me know )
Now if the stills like vegeta looking at goku were on model wouldn't that make it look far better

[JazzMazz]

Ki Breaker, just try to look past the on-model drawings. The character sheets are just for reference which the animator may or may not follow. By the way the best animators, the most recognized ones have their own distinct style and they don't focus on being on-model which is why they are considered good and continue to get work.

It makes sense, doesn't it?

It makes sense,if I understood this correctly, he is a good animator and has his own distinct style, so he manages to pump out greatly detailed animation as he dosen't need to stick to model for every shot..
This rises a question in my mind, why doesn't on model staying people do shots which are stills and in between is provided by Tate? Wouldn't this help reduce complaints about off model art..

I don't know who did the goku and Vegeta training sequence, but it looked very odd to me, so I am assuming it was done by Tate ( if not let me know )
Now if the stills like vegeta looking at goku were on model wouldn't that make it look far better

Since Tate is a the best animator working on the series, they find it reduntant most of the time to correct his work. He is also given a larger amount of drawings for his fight scene episodes. Also, which training sequence are you referring to. (which episode, the one in 32 was by Tate, as was the one at the end of 18 presumably)

[Saikyo no Senshi]

It makes sense,if I understood this correctly, he is a good animator and has his own distinct style, so he manages to pump out greatly detailed animation as he dosen't need to stick to model for every shot..
This rises a question in my mind, why doesn't on model staying people do shots which are stills and in between is provided by Tate? Wouldn't this help reduce complaints about off model art..

I don't know who did the goku and Vegeta training sequence, but it looked very odd to me, so I am assuming it was done by Tate ( if not let me know )
Now if the stills like vegeta looking at goku were on model wouldn't that make it look far better

Stills are stills. You're not going to find good animation in it. Yes, some stills like Kitano stills can be really bad, but that's what the Chief Animation Director is for. Besides, I wouldn't judge the quality of an animator based on stills.

My point is that to produce a good quality action scene or any scene with good animation or like animation fans call sakuga, an animator has to go off-model. Basically, off-model shouldn't be a complaint. The complaint about off-model in most cases is pointless and not a fair criticism.

The Gokuu Vegeta training sequence in Super #32 is entirely handled by Tate Naoki. I'm pretty sure. By entirely, I mean, the key animation drawings. The problem with that scene isn't that it's not on-model, its problem in my opinion aside from the rushed schedule and Tate not having enough time is that, it's oversmeary. Just too much smears. That might be the odd feeling you are talking about. I still like it though.

It's not that Tate cannot draw close to the models, watch #11 he did that and that episode is considered by many the best episode of KtK arc. But, #11 doesn't even have much animation and it's not something I like Tate for. The direction and storyboard is what made #11 good, not the animation.

There is a staff position as Chief Animation Director who want consistency and if some drawings go too far away from the designs, they correct it. Tate was corrected in #56 for example. But, the CAD that is best is the one that let the good animators' style shine and not correct them.

EDIT: Also, as Jazz Mazz said, the CADs might find it redundant to correct their best animator's work.