Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Seriously doubt it. That would make the gap between god and blue way too big and nobody implied that is the case.

Well that's all that King Kai said, he can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of others. That doesn't really have anything to do with strength. He might be as strong as that anyway or stronger at that point but he's not a God. Turning into a Super Saiyan Blue is him turning into a God without help which was what King Kai's comment was about.

Also to answer the other persons question. Episode 15 about 95 seconds in the Narrator says "Goku now beyond the level of God, faces off against the God of Destruction Beerus" they showed Goku as a Super Saiyan during this which was what he was the entire episode before it.

[TheMikado]

I think the above is where people are misinterpreting things. They read it as the time skip ALWAYS works on a weaker opponent which is not what is said. A skilled weaker opponent CAN over come it such as base Goku. All we know is that 10% Vegeta wasn't able to over come it by power alone. Base Goku can be several times weaker than SSB 10% Vegeta and still overcome it with skill.

Goku was already countering the Time Skip before he went SSG; what Beerus is asking and what Whis is answering is why the Time Skip has effectively stopped working. Whis says it's because the Time Skip only works if they're near or below him in terms of power, and SSG Goku's is far above his now. There's no legitimate alternative reading of this, it's clear as day.

That's why he powers up.

That's the point I'm making though. Base Goku didn't need to be stronger than Hit in base in order to counter it. But people in this thread are using this as evidence that base Goku is stronger than Hit.

[ZombieVito]

Seriously doubt it. That would make the gap between god and blue way too big and nobody implied that is the case.

Well that's all that King Kai said, he can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of others. That doesn't really have anything to do with strength. He might be as strong as that anyway or stronger at that point but he's not a God. Turning into a Super Saiyan Blue is him turning into a God without help which was what King Kai's comment was about.

I just watched the scene again and I have forgotten about this but Roshi actually wonders if Goku has become stronger than SSG with SSB. That wouldn't make sense if his regular SSJ is equal to SSG. He wouldn't need SSB for that, he would just need to turn SSJ2.

Did I miss something? The Time Skip was said to only work on people weaker or as strong as Hit. So they are on the same tier by default.

It works on those stronger than Hit (like SS Goku & 10% SSB Vegeta), but if the fighter is too strong (like SSG Goku), it doesn't work well.

OK but it still implies that Hit is not that much weaker than 10% Vegeta (Not worlds apart anyway) which is still impossible thanks to Black.

[TheMikado]

That's not how most people took it, it's like saying a Judo throw is only effective on people under 300 pounds. A skilled person under 100 pounds can still counter it.

[HeroR]

But Goku never lost his new found power after fighting Beerus. He should have been God level the whole time, they said he was stronger as a Super Saiyan than he was as a Super Saiyan God.

Then explain why Kaio was surprised Goku reached god level on his own.

It wasn't 'god level'. He was surprised that Goku reached godhood without the ritual.

I just watched the scene again and I have forgotten about this but Roshi actually wonders if Goku has become stronger than SSG with SSB. That wouldn't make sense if his regular SSJ is equal to SSG. He wouldn't need SSB for that, he would just need to turn SSJ2.

He was going all out against Freeza and Roshi can't sense god ki, so he won't be able to make a proper comparison between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[Simere]

I think the above is where people are misinterpreting things. They read it as the time skip ALWAYS works on a weaker opponent which is not what is said. A skilled weaker opponent CAN over come it such as base Goku. All we know is that 10% Vegeta wasn't able to over come it by power alone. Base Goku can be several times weaker than SSB 10% Vegeta and still overcome it with skill.

Goku was already countering the Time Skip before he went SSG; what Beerus is asking and what Whis is answering is why the Time Skip has effectively stopped working. Whis says it's because the Time Skip only works if they're near or below him in terms of power, and SSG Goku's is far above his now. There's no legitimate alternative reading of this, it's clear as day.

That's why he powers up.

That's the point I'm making though. Base Goku didn't need to be stronger than Hit in base in order to counter it. But people in this thread are using this as evidence that base Goku is stronger than Hit.

It's two different types of countering. Goku first countered it by adjusting his fighting to account for it, but it was still functionally working. This can be done with skill. By going SSG and then SSB, he countered it by making it stop working entirely. This can only be done with power.

I thought the argument was about whether SS1 Goku ≅ 10~% SSB Vegeta, why Vegeta wouldn't just go SSJ2 instead of SSB, and also how this relates to Black's power scaling.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Seriously doubt it. That would make the gap between god and blue way too big and nobody implied that is the case.

Well that's all that King Kai said, he can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of others. That doesn't really have anything to do with strength. He might be as strong as that anyway or stronger at that point but he's not a God. Turning into a Super Saiyan Blue is him turning into a God without help which was what King Kai's comment was about.

I just watched the scene again and I have forgotten about this but Roshi actually wonders if Goku has become stronger than SSG with SSB. That wouldn't make sense if his regular SSJ is equal to SSG. He wouldn't need SSB for that, he would just need to turn SSJ2.

Did I miss something? The Time Skip was said to only work on people weaker or as strong as Hit. So they are on the same tier by default.

OK but it still implies that Hit is not that much weaker than 10% Vegeta (Not worlds apart anyway) which is still impossible thanks to Black.

No, we don't know exactly how big the difference has to be in order to overcome the Tokitobashi. All we know is that SSG is strong enough, while SSB at 10%, or rather, less than 10% (Whis says that Vegeta was using less that 10% of his power, not exactly 10%) is not.

[TheMikado]

Goku was already countering the Time Skip before he went SSG; what Beerus is asking and what Whis is answering is why the Time Skip has effectively stopped working. Whis says it's because the Time Skip only works if they're near or below him in terms of power, and SSG Goku's is far above his now. There's no legitimate alternative reading of this, it's clear as day.

That's why he powers up.

That's the point I'm making though. Base Goku didn't need to be stronger than Hit in base in order to counter it. But people in this thread are using this as evidence that base Goku is stronger than Hit.

It's two different types of countering. Goku first countered it by adjusting his fighting to account for it, but it was still functionally working. This can be done with skill. By going SSG and then SSB, he countered it by making it stop working entirely. This can only be done with power.

I thought the argument was about whether SS1 Goku ≅ 10~% SSB Vegeta, why Vegeta wouldn't just go SSJ2 instead of SSB, and also how this relates to Black's power scaling.

I agree there's two types, there's just nothing to indicate that SSJ is greater than 10% SSB, I think SSJ2 Vegeta would still be less than 10% SSB and SSJ was only able to be relevant based on the first type of countering which was skill.

[ZombieVito]

But Goku never lost his new found power after fighting Beerus. He should have been God level the whole time, they said he was stronger as a Super Saiyan than he was as a Super Saiyan God.

Then explain why Kaio was surprised Goku reached god level on his own.

It wasn't 'god level'. He was surprised that Goku reached godhood without the ritual.

I just watched the scene again and I have forgotten about this but Roshi actually wonders if Goku has become stronger than SSG with SSB. That wouldn't make sense if his regular SSJ is equal to SSG. He wouldn't need SSB for that, he would just need to turn SSJ2.

He was going all out against Freeza and Roshi can't sense god ki, so he won't be able to make a proper comparison between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

I still don't buy it. Why even have that line in there if Goku already surpassed SSG with SSJ?

[HeroR]

I still don't buy it. Why even have that line in there if Goku already surpassed SSG with SSJ?

First, Goku was fighting Freeza in his base form when that line was made. So there was no comparison between Suer Saiyan and Super Saiyan God. All the narrative said that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God and reached a new form of Super Saiyan, which is true since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God.

Second, the cast wouldn't know Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God because they can't feel god ki, so how would they know how Goku's Super Saiyan compared to Super Saiyan God. Even then, the comparison was to base form Goku.

[ZombieVito]

I still don't buy it. Why even have that line in there if Goku already surpassed SSG with SSJ?

Goku was fighting Freeza in his base form when that line was made. So there was no comparison between Suer Saiyan and Super Saiyan God. All the narrative said that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God and reached a new form of Super Saiyan, which is true since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God.

They supposedly know SSJ Goku = SSG. Why even wonder that this new form has surpassed the power of SSG if his SSJ2 form can already surpassed it?

Doesn't make sense.

[HeroR]

I still don't buy it. Why even have that line in there if Goku already surpassed SSG with SSJ?

Goku was fighting Freeza in his base form when that line was made. So there was no comparison between Suer Saiyan and Super Saiyan God. All the narrative said that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God and reached a new form of Super Saiyan, which is true since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God.

They supposedly know SSJ Goku = SSG. Why even wonder that this new form has surpassed the power of SSG if his SSJ2 form can already surpassed it?

Doesn't make sense.

When did the cast claimed to know Super Saiyan Goku was equal to Super Saiyan God Goku. The comparison was only ever made by Beerus and later Whis after Goku lost his god form. The rest of the cast would only know because they're taking Beerus and Whis at their word. And they didn't wonder if the form surpassed Super Saiyan God. They wondered if the form was Super Saiyan God because they suddenly couldn't feel his ki.

Goku also didn't used Super Saiyan 2 until the Future Trunks Saga, so why would the comparison even be made during the Golden Freeza fight.

[Simere]

That's the point I'm making though. Base Goku didn't need to be stronger than Hit in base in order to counter it. But people in this thread are using this as evidence that base Goku is stronger than Hit.

It's two different types of countering. Goku first countered it by adjusting his fighting to account for it, but it was still functionally working. This can be done with skill. By going SSG and then SSB, he countered it by making it stop working entirely. This can only be done with power.

I thought the argument was about whether SS1 Goku ≅ 10~% SSB Vegeta, why Vegeta wouldn't just go SSJ2 instead of SSB, and also how this relates to Black's power scaling.

I agree there's two types, there's just nothing to indicate that SSJ is greater than 10% SSB, I think SSJ2 Vegeta would still be less than 10% SSB and SSJ was only able to be relevant based on the first type of countering which was skill.

Not greater, approximately equal. Hit had to be around 10~% SSB in order to utilize the Time Skip on Vegeta, and Goku was stated to have the advantage of power over Hit, just not the stamina. Combine those two things and you have an indication that the power of SSJ1 Goku was in the vicinity of 10~% SSB.

[Marlowe89]

Well that's all that King Kai said, he can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of others. That doesn't really have anything to do with strength.

It really kind of does though. Super Saiyan Blue isn't Super Saiyan God, but the latter is what King Kai said. King Kai wouldn't specifically use the term "Super Saiyan God" if he was just talking about God ki or being a God, he's explicitly referring to the form. It seems pretty obvious to me that SSG is contextually being used as a benchmark here - one that only SSB could meet/surpass, hence the narrator later stating that Blue surpassed even Super Saiyan God.

All the narrative said that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God and reached a new form of Super Saiyan, which is true since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God.

The narrator stated that Goku reached a new form surpassing even Super Saiyan God. I don't know how else you could interpret that. If his previously unlocked yellow Super Saiyan forms already surpassed Super Saiyan God then the narrator's statement is unnecessarily redundant. That's ZombieVito's whole point and it absolutely stands.

[HeroR]

Well that's all that King Kai said, he can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of others. That doesn't really have anything to do with strength.

It really kind of does though. Super Saiyan Blue isn't Super Saiyan God, but the latter is what King Kai said. King Kai wouldn't specifically use the term "Super Saiyan God" if he was just talking about God ki or being a God, so it seems pretty obvious to me that he was using SSG as a benchmark here - one that only SSB could meet/surpass, hence the narrator later stating that Blue surpassed even Super Saiyan God.

All the narrative said that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God and reached a new form of Super Saiyan, which is true since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God.

The narrator stated that Goku reached a new form surpassing even Super Saiyan God. I don't know how else you could interpret that. If his previously unlocked yellow Super Saiyan forms already surpassed Super Saiyan God then the narrator's statement is unnecessarily redundant. That's ZombieVito's whole point and it absolutely stands.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God and even the stronger Super Saiyan after Goku absorbed its power. And the Japanese some times do redundant things, so what else is new? Trunks called Super Saiyan 3, an ascended Super Saiyan that has surpassed an ascended Super Saiyan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God and even the stronger Super Saiyan after Goku absorbed its power. And the Japanese some times do redundant things, so what else is new? Trunks called Super Saiyan 3, an ascended Super Saiyan that has surpassed an ascended Super Saiyan.

That makes no sense because Base Goku was also around SSG's level of power back then, so this would mean the gap between SSJ and Base is tiny which is contradicted by Zamasu's statement that Goku's power rose several tens of times when he went SSJ2.

[HeroR]

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God and even the stronger Super Saiyan after Goku absorbed its power. And the Japanese some times do redundant things, so what else is new? Trunks called Super Saiyan 3, an ascended Super Saiyan that has surpassed an ascended Super Saiyan.

That makes no sense because Base Goku was also around SSG's level of power back then, so this would mean the gap between SSJ and Base is tiny which is contradicted by Zamasu's statement that Goku's power rose several tens of times when he went SSJ2.

There is an open debate if Super Saiyan God is equal to Goku's base form or his Super Saiyan form. Both have equal support and I don't really care which since I don't feel it makes that much of a different.

And I don't see the contradicted since Goku never used Super Saiyan 2 until the Future Trunks Saga, so why would any comparisons be made to it compared to Super Saiyan God. It isn't like Zamasu know that Goku absorbed godhood since he met Goku after the fact.

[TheMikado]

It's two different types of countering. Goku first countered it by adjusting his fighting to account for it, but it was still functionally working. This can be done with skill. By going SSG and then SSB, he countered it by making it stop working entirely. This can only be done with power.

I thought the argument was about whether SS1 Goku ≅ 10~% SSB Vegeta, why Vegeta wouldn't just go SSJ2 instead of SSB, and also how this relates to Black's power scaling.

I agree there's two types, there's just nothing to indicate that SSJ is greater than 10% SSB, I think SSJ2 Vegeta would still be less than 10% SSB and SSJ was only able to be relevant based on the first type of countering which was skill.

Not greater, approximately equal. Hit had to be around 10~% SSB in order to utilize the Time Skip on Vegeta, and Goku was stated to have the advantage of power over Hit, just not the stamina. Combine those two things and you have an indication that the power of SSJ1 Goku was in the vicinity of 10~% SSB.

No Goku was only stated to have the advantage of power AFTER he went SSG/SSB. It was never stated as such in his base or SSJ forms, further stamina was not a factor in those lower forms. They specifics state the means Goku uses to overcome the time skip while weaker than Hit was Goku figuring out the time skip and anticipating his movements and skill.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Not greater, approximately equal. Hit had to be around 10~% SSB in order to utilize the Time Skip on Vegeta, and Goku was stated to have the advantage of power over Hit, just not the stamina. Combine those two things and you have an indication that the power of SSJ1 Goku was in the vicinity of 10~% SSB.

We don't know how great the difference has to be. All we know is that SSG Goku became too strong for Hit, and >10% SSB Vegeta wasn't. For all we know, >10% SSB Vegeta could be 100 times stronger than Hit, and SSG Goku 1.000 times stronger.

[Simere]

No Goku was only stated to have the advantage of power AFTER he went SSG/SSB. It was never stated as such in his base or SSJ forms, further stamina was not a factor in those lower forms. They specifics state the means Goku uses to overcome the time skip while weaker than Hit was Goku figuring out the time skip and anticipating his movements and skill.

While Goku is still just SS1, Beerus complains to Whis that Goku is more powerful than Hit and that he's only losing because of cheap tricks. And fighting is fighting, none of these forms have infinite stamina; it's clearly stated that Goku's stamina was starting to wear down, while Hit's wasn't taking a hit due to the Time Skip not using much energy.

Not greater, approximately equal. Hit had to be around 10~% SSB in order to utilize the Time Skip on Vegeta, and Goku was stated to have the advantage of power over Hit, just not the stamina. Combine those two things and you have an indication that the power of SSJ1 Goku was in the vicinity of 10~% SSB.

We don't know how great the difference has to be. All we know is that SSG Goku became too strong for Hit, and >10% SSB Vegeta wasn't. For all we know, >10% SSB Vegeta could be 100 times stronger than Hit, and SSG Goku 1.000 times stronger.

I think we can employ a little common sense and say 100 times stronger is not near his level. The gulf between SSJ1 and SSJ2 no one would call near and it was "only" 2x as strong as SSJ1; differences of far less than twice as strong have resulted in lopsided fights before. I've also seen two other translations that translated it as "equal" rather than "near" which suggests to me the original language means a insignificant difference. It would be nice to have a breakdown of what that line means.