Are the Namekians stronger than the Saiya-jin?

[James R. Cadwell]

Radditz was a low-class Saiya-jin -- a member of the "strongest race in the universe" -- and he had a battle power of 1200. If I remember correctly, there were a bunch of Namekian farmers running around with battle powers of 3000.

Vegeta was the prince of the Saiya-jin -- at that point, presumably the strongest member of his species within recent history. He was around 20,000 or so when he arrived on Earth. Nail -- the only remaining Namekian warrior besides Piccolo -- was at 45,000.

If Radditz is representative of the average low-class Saiya-jin, even a group of Oozaru wouldn't be able to defeat Nail. They wouldn't even be able to fight Namekian farmers without a full moon.

[Dayspring]

The Saiyans aren't gods loike everyone thinks they are. What's rare about them is that where most races only have a few combattants, most of which probably range in the lower hundreds, the ENTIRE Saiyan race is comprised of combattants. On top of that, the average PL for a weaker Saiyan is 1,200. Those Namek farmers aren't representative of the average Namekkian PL like the Earth farmer was. Because of the cataclysm years ago, the only Nameks that stay in the villages are children and elders to watch over them. EVERYBODY else is out on the farms. Those guys at 3,000 were probably elite fighters, and Nail may have had his potential drawn forth by Saichoru.

[Sun_Wukong]

You have to remember, before Super Saiya-jiin was "discovered", the average Saiya-jiin relied on Oozaru for most of their brute strength. They didnt really bother with hand to hand combat while conquering a planet. Considering Radditzu, Nappa and Vejiita were Saiya-jiin Elite, they were probably above average in strength to begin with.

Another point to bring up is in the Bardock special, all of his men were easily killed by Dodoria. Bardock was also pretty badly injured. Bardock's team was considered low level, so I guess that sortve gives you an idea of how strong an average saiya-jiin is. As for Bardock, he seemed alittle above average, considering he is the father of the strongest being in the universe. He must have at least some good genes.

[PsyLiam]

But, genetically, Goku was as weak as they come. He had a pathetic power level when he was a newborn. The only reason he became OMG super powerful is that he never, ever, ever gave up. He trained all the time. And his enemies had the decency to encounter him in roughly increasing order of strength (if Cell had turned up before everyone left for Namek, he'd have killed everyone with no trouble.Hell, if Ginyu had come to Earth instead of Vegeta, he'd have bitched all over everyone, including Goku).

I think that Bardock's strength came from the idea that he was constantly taking part in missions, and constantly almost dying during them. That's what made him above average.

As for Raditz, I never thought that he was a "Saiyan elite". But as there were no other Saiyans around, Vegeta and Nappa had no choice but to hang around with him. They probably took the mickey out of his stupid hair behind his back, though.

[Omarion]

I think that the saiyans are stronger because all they need to get ther ass beat like they stole somethings and will be twice as strong as the person that beat there ass. As for the Nameks they have to train a lot and there power level does not increase with moonlight. So to me the Saiyans are strong because they many ways of becoming stronger than just training.
As for Rad. he was a chump as for the saiyan saga he was around
Rad.= around 600
Nappa= around 10,000-15,000
Vegeta=24,000-30,000

Hey Jame about the Vegeta power-level that you said was wrong. Because he was higher because the part where Bluma I think it was check a scouter and read 24,000 when was powering up for his galick gun or was it his big bang attack. Vegeta would stomp out Nail simply. Because when he was on Namek because he gave Furiza a better fight than Nail.
Also Goku was a representive of the average low-class Saiya-Jin which proves that any class of Saiyan can become the strongest person in the universe. So just imagine if a elite-saiyan train like Goku did. Vegeta didn't train as hard as Goku and he was the second. The nameks train a lot but was not even a match for Dodoria.

Also another point that I must make was that you said Nail was around 45,000. Well Vegeta was at around 30,000 before he came to earth. But in a day he become stronger than Nail. So if Vegeta would train like Nail he would beat nail. For hell if Radditz would get beat by Vegeta on earth and live he would be stronger than Nail. But let Nail get beat by Vegeta he would be the same level.

So I think that the Saiyans are the better than Nameks if they train a bit. Or just get there ass beat

[Deus ex Machina]

You have to remember, before Super Saiya-jiin was "discovered", the average Saiya-jiin relied on Oozaru for most of their brute strength. They didnt really bother with hand to hand combat while conquering a planet. Considering Radditzu, Nappa and Vejiita were Saiya-jiin Elite, they were probably above average in strength to begin with.

Another point to bring up is in the Bardock special, all of his men were easily killed by Dodoria. Bardock was also pretty badly injured. Bardock's team was considered low level, so I guess that sortve gives you an idea of how strong an average saiya-jiin is. As for Bardock, he seemed alittle above average, considering he is the father of the strongest being in the universe. He must have at least some good genes.

Another interesting point is how you keep spelling certain things like "Saiya-jiin", "Radditzu" and "Vejiita" with too many "i"'s and pronouncuations, but then at the end call Goku's father Bardock instead of Burdock.

Heh, just messing with ya man.

[Super Sonic]

The namekian warriors were probably stronger than the peasant class saiyans like Bardock and his crew, long as they didn't do that cheap giant monkey thing. Heck, with Namek's 3 suns unless they did that fake moon they couldn't anyways.

[James R. Cadwell]

I think that the saiyans are stronger because all they need to get ther ass beat like they stole somethings and will be twice as strong as the person that beat there ass.

That only works if:

(a): You opponent doesn't kill you.

(b): You can heal yourself through advanced medical technology or magic. Otherwise you're just a crippled Saiya-jin who walks around with a limp.

Hey Jame about the Vegeta power-level that you said was wrong. Because he was higher because the part where Bluma I think it was check a scouter and read 24,000 when was powering up for his galick gun or was it his big bang attack. Vegeta would stomp out Nail simply. Because when he was on Namek because he gave Furiza a better fight than Nail.

Vegeta only became stronger than Nail because he recovered from the edge of death several times on Namek. Apparently this isn't very common, otherwise Radditz, Nappa and Vegeta would all have been in the high thousands when they each first arrived on Earth. Without that Saiya-jin racial attribute, Vegeta may not have ever reached Nail's level of power. After all, over twenty years of fighting and training only got him to a battle power half that of Nail's own.

Also Goku was a representive of the average low-class Saiya-Jin which proves that any class of Saiyan can become the strongest person in the universe.

Goku isn't a fair example of an average Saiya-jin. He had his power magically enhanced as a child, trained with God for several years, trained with Kaio-sama for several months, had access to the senzu so he could exploit the near-death power-up more than any other Saiya-jin, etc.

So just imagine if a elite-saiyan train like Goku did. Vegeta didn't train as hard as Goku and he was the second. The nameks train a lot but was not even a match for Dodoria.

Vegeta was stronger than Goku when he entered the "Room of Spirit and Time". He spent a cumulative total of two years training there and emerged weaker than Goku, who only spent a single year there. This seems to indicate that Goku increases his strength at a much greater rate than Vegeta, even under the same training conditions.

About Dodoria: Nappa couldn't beat him, either, and he was a Saiya-jin elite. I'd assume that he spent his entire life fighting and training, and his power at death wasn't really that impressive.

So I think that the Saiyans are the better than Nameks if they train a bit. Or just get there ass beat

The Saiya-jin are more powerful if they continuously recover from near-death. But the Namekians have a racial attribute they can exploit, too -- fusion.

[PsyLiam]

Vegeta was stronger than Goku when he entered the "Room of Spirit and Time". He spent a cumulative total of two years training there and emerged weaker than Goku, who only spent a single year there. This seems to indicate that Goku increases his strength at a much greater rate than Vegeta, even under the same training conditions.

Vegeta did partially waste the first year though, training to reach a "transformation dead-end", for want of a better phrase. Although as mentioned in another thread, he must have still been improving his normal form too. And he did train for a whole other year ignoring the "Ultra Super Saiyan" thing.

Goku also spent a lot of time training Gohan, too. Which makes it even more remarkable.

Personally, I suspect that Toriyama forgot that Goku was weaker than Vegeta when they both went in. But if you want an in-universe answer, I suppose it's possible that Goku's near-death from the heart virus boosted his power. Sure, that power-up technique is rarely mentioned post-Freeza, so it might not be effective. But the heard virus is different from most other "near-deaths", so maybe it still worked.

[Omarion]

James

Vegeta only became stronger than Nail because he recovered from the edge of death several times on Namek. Apparently this isn't very common, otherwise Radditz, Nappa and Vegeta would all have been in the high thousands when they each first arrived on Earth. Without that Saiya-jin racial attribute, Vegeta may not have ever reached Nail's level of power. After all, over twenty years of fighting and training only got him to a battle power half that of Nail's own.

But none the less he was stronger than Nail when he was on Namek right?

James

Goku isn't a fair example of an average Saiya-jin. He had his power magically enhanced as a child, trained with God for several years, trained with Kaio-sama for several months, had access to the senzu so he could exploit the near-death power-up more than any other Saiya-jin, etc.

Goku is a fair example because he was born as a low class-saiyan and as I said if an Elite-Saiyan train like Goku just imagine there power. This topics is about Saiyans and Nameks Goku is a full blooded saiyan so he is a fair example like anyother Saiyan.

James

Vegeta was stronger than Goku when he entered the "Room of Spirit and Time". He spent a cumulative total of two years training there and emerged weaker than Goku, who only spent a single year there. This seems to indicate that Goku increases his strength at a much greater rate than Vegeta, even under the same training conditions.

About Dodoria: Nappa couldn't beat him, either, and he was a Saiya-jin elite. I'd assume that he spent his entire life fighting and training, and his power at death wasn't really that impressive.

Vegeta came out weaker because he didn't train as hard. You can tell Goku train hard with Gohan. Because Gohan was the weakest saiyan on earth but came out the 2nd strongest. Because he had the power to beat Cell. So you can just imagine how much training they did. You can spend 2 years some where and train a bit right. You can spend 1 year training a lot and come out stronger than the person training for two years.

James

The Saiya-jin are more powerful if they continuously recover from near-death. But the Namekians have a racial attribute they can exploit, too -- fusion.

Also since we are going ahead in time since the Namek Saga or in other words Furiza Saga the saiyan picked up Fusion pretty fast *Gotenks* *Gogeta* right. And it was pretty easy to learn right? So the saiyan would of just had to see it a few times before they got it down. Then where would the nameks be?

Just to say also James ol'pal On the new Namek Planet who had to save them because they couldn't fight off Cooler? Saiyan did so if Saiyans had to save because they where to weak and I am sure Nail was there to. So there for without a doubt saiyans are stronger. Right?

[PsyLiam]

Vegeta came out weaker because he didn't train as hard. You can tell Goku train hard with Gohan. Because Gohan was the weakest saiyan on earth but came out the 2nd strongest. Because he had the power to beat Cell. So you can just imagine how much training they did. You can spend 2 years some where and train a bit right. You can spend 1 year training a lot and come out stronger than the person training for two years.

Vegeta didn't train hard? Vegeta? The man who would push himself to the point where he almost dies if it meant getting stronger than Goku?

And Gohan getting stronger is surely an indication that Goku trained less hard, not more. Think about what we saw. Vegeta's training was intense. He would do it all day, every day. Goku though spent time looking after Gohan, helping him, coaching him, making him get stronger. That means less time for Goku to train himself.

As to Gohan being the second strongest when he came out, what are you basing that on? I don't recall any dialogue saying that he was stronger than Trunks or Vegeta, at least before he turned Super Saiyan 2.

[James R. Cadwell]

Vegeta did partially waste the first year though, training to reach a "transformation dead-end", for want of a better phrase. Although as mentioned in another thread, he must have still been improving his normal form too. And he did train for a whole other year ignoring the "Ultra Super Saiyan" thing.

Goku wasted some of his time on "Ultra/Ultimate/Whatever" Super Saiya-jin, too. I think I remember a scene something like this:

(Goku transforms into Ultra Super Saiya-jin)
Gohan: Woo. You can beat Cell now.
Goku: Nope, too slow.
Gohan: Oh, okay.
Goku: Let's start training all over again.
Gohan: ....

But none the less he was stronger than Nail when he was on Namek right?

After recovering from the fight with the Ginyu Force.

Also since we are going ahead in time since the Namek Saga or in other words Furiza Saga the saiyan picked up Fusion pretty fast *Gotenks* *Gogeta* right. And it was pretty easy to learn right? So the saiyan would of just had to see it a few times before they got it down. Then where would the nameks be?

The fusion technique from the Buu Saga is different from Namekian fusion. The former is a somewhat limited technique that anyone can learn, so it's irrelevant to a discussion of racial strengths and weaknesses. The latter is an innate Namekian ability.

Just to say also James ol'pal On the new Namek Planet who had to save them because they couldn't fight off Cooler? Saiyan did so if Saiyans had to save because they where to weak and I am sure Nail was there to. So there for without a doubt saiyans are stronger. Right?

The strongest Saiya-jin in the series are more powerful than the strongest Namekians in the series. The average and low-class Saiya-jin are comparable to Namekian farmers.

Goku is a fair example because he was born as a low class-saiyan and as I said if an Elite-Saiyan train like Goku just imagine there power. This topics is about Saiyans and Nameks Goku is a full blooded saiyan so he is a fair example like anyother Saiyan.

But Goku isn't representative of the average low-class Saiya-jin, thanks to his special training, magical enhancement, access to senzu, etc. That's like saying "What do you mean gorillas are stronger than humans on average? The strongest human in the world can bench 1500 lbs. and snap telephone poles in his hands."

Radditz would probably be a much more accurate benchmark for low-class Saiya-jin power.

Vegeta came out weaker because he didn't train as hard.

I suspect Vegeta would disagree with that assertion.

You can tell Goku train hard with Gohan. Because Gohan was the weakest saiyan on earth but came out the 2nd strongest. Because he had the power to beat Cell.

So you're saying that Vegeta must not have trained very hard since Goku and Gohan surpassed him?

As to Gohan being the second strongest when he came out, what are you basing that on? I don't recall any dialogue saying that he was stronger than Trunks or Vegeta, at least before he turned Super Saiyan 2.

There was some dialogue like this. I think, anyway.

Goku: I was fighting Cell at full power, but it seemed like I wasn't using that much power to Gohan, 'cause he's very strong.

Piccolo: Really?

Gohan: Yep.

Vegeta: WHAT?!

[Zackarotto]

I don't understand why quoting is so hard for everybody.

<quote="Zackarotto">I LIKE SANDWICHES.</quote>

Just with BBCode brackets instead of html ones.

Edit: Oh, and I'm talking to you, Omarion.

[Ben Plante]

Well... I think it's probably as simple as some Saiyans are stronger than some Namekians, and some Namekians are stronger than some Saiyans. However, in the long run, Saiyans have the ability to go Super Saiyan 3 (or 4 if you count GT), which is more powerful than any Namekian. I think the strongest Namekian you'll ever see is Kamiccolonail.

I wonder how strong Kattats was?

[Omarion]

James

After recovering from the fight with the Ginyu Force.

So you even admit right? Point solved

James

The strongest Saiya-jin in the series are more powerful than the strongest Namekians in the series. The average and low-class Saiya-jin are comparable to Namekian farmers.

Low-Class means bottom of the barrel Peices of Shit that are use less. Right? The Nameks had Old men, kids, and Farmer thats all they had. So there Farmers were there elite. So if the Peices of shit Saiyans match up thier strongest you tell me who is stronger.
To put in another way since it was in time There are only a few Saiyans right? The Nameks are alive right? So those few Saiyan Goku,Vegeta,Trunks,Etc. that are alive when the show ended were the whole Saiyan race left. So they are the Saiyan race right? So the Saiyan race is stronger than the Nameks. If you want to look at that way. Or you could look at the other way so just about the saiyan are stronger anyway you want to look at it.

James

But Goku isn't representative of the average low-class Saiya-jin, thanks to his special training, magical enhancement, access to senzu, etc. That's like saying "What do you mean gorillas are stronger than humans on average? The strongest human in the world can bench 1500 lbs. and snap telephone poles in his hands."

Radditz would probably be a much more accurate benchmark for low-class Saiya-jin power.

Yes he is through the whole DBZ Saga Vegeta calls him a mere low-class saiyan. Right? So he is always a low-class saiyan he was born one and remains one. Lets take Micheal Jackson for an example: He was born a black man he is now a white woman does that mean by blood he is a white woman? No it doesn't So since Goku was born a low-class Saiyan by blood still means he is one. For heck sakes the maker of DBZ has Vegeta calling him a low-class threw the whole show right? So he is still a low-Class saiyan. You can't change what the maker made Vegeta say now can you?

James

I suspect Vegeta would disagree with that assertion.

Well hear was I am Saiyan he didn't train as hard let me repeat the key words "As Hard" he train hard alright but not "As Hard". Did Vegeta beat cell? Did Trunks beat Cell? No just only Goku and Gohan could beat cell. So that means Vegeta didn't train "As Hard" This how I'll put it really simple Gohan couldn't turn Super Saiyan Vegeta could right? Vegeta could turn super saiyan two but couldn't make a blast to beat cell right? Vegeta spent two years. Gohan couldn't go Super Saiyan but came out with the abilty to turn Super Saiyan maybe even Super Saiyan 2. He could of been hiding the Super Saiyan 2 like Goku hide the Super Saiyan 3 for a while. You never know. So for him to make a blast to cell in a year and Vegeta couldn't make a blast to kill cell in two years proves that Vegeta didn't train "As Hard" as Goku and Gohan right?

PsyLiam

Vegeta didn't train hard? Vegeta?

"As Hard"

[James R. Cadwell]

So you even admit right? Point solved

Yes. But it wasn't a particularly relevant point to begin with, since we're comparing average members of each species.

Low-Class means bottom of the barrel Peices of Shit that are use less. Right? The Nameks had Old men, kids, and Farmer thats all they had. So there Farmers were there elite. So if the Peices of shit Saiyans match up thier strongest you tell me who is stronger.

Uh, no. Low-class Saiya-jin are still professional warriors -- they just aren't the most powerful members of Saiya-jin warrior hierarchy. Namekian farmers are farmers. It's pretty sad when the Saiya-jin equivalent of general infantry is completely outclassed by farmers from another species. That would be like the average U.S soldier being outclassed in equipment and ability by Iraqi farmers.

To put in another way since it was in time There are only a few Saiyans right? The Nameks are alive right? So those few Saiyan Goku,Vegeta,Trunks,Etc. that are alive when the show ended were the whole Saiyan race left. So they are the Saiyan race right? So the Saiyan race is stronger than the Nameks. If you want to look at that way. Or you could look at the other way so just about the saiyan are stronger anyway you want to look at it.

Only Goku and Vegeta are full-blooded Saiya-jin, and neither of them are representative of the average Saiya-jin. Those Namekian farmers may not necessarily be representative of the average Namekian, either, but they were farmers, not warriors. It's an important distinction. The only fighting-type Namekian we saw was Nail, and he was far beyond Radditz and Nappa.

Yes he is through the whole DBZ Saga Vegeta calls him a mere low-class saiyan. Right? So he is always a low-class saiyan he was born one and remains one. Lets take Micheal Jackson for an example: He was born a black man he is now a white woman does that mean by blood he is a white woman? No it doesn't.

Let's say that I'm trying to evaluate the average fighting ability of a Canadian citizen. Should I pick someone who represents the average, or should I pick someone who has had martial arts training from birth? Goku may be a low-class Saiya-jin, but he isn't the average low-class Saiya-jin.

So since Goku was born a low-class Saiyan by blood still means he is one. For heck sakes the maker of DBZ has Vegeta calling him a low-class threw the whole show right? So he is still a low-Class saiyan. You can't change what the maker made Vegeta say now can you?

You're missing the point. Americans are on average wealthier than Columbians. I'm sure there are also many rich Columbians who have millions of dollars. If I was to take a Columbian millionaire as representative of the entire Columbian populace, I would arrive at the (false) conclusion that Columbians are much, much richer than Americans.

This how I'll put it really simple Gohan couldn't turn Super Saiyan Vegeta could right? Vegeta could turn super saiyan two but couldn't make a blast to beat cell right? Vegeta spent two years. Gohan couldn't go Super Saiyan but came out with the abilty to turn Super Saiyan maybe even Super Saiyan 2. He could of been hiding the Super Saiyan 2 like Goku hide the Super Saiyan 3 for a while. You never know. So for him to make a blast to cell in a year and Vegeta couldn't make a blast to kill cell in two years proves that Vegeta didn't train "As Hard" as Goku and Gohan right?

No. It indicates that Gohan can become stronger much more quickly and easily than Vegeta. Assuming that Vegeta just didn't train hard enough isn't a particularly parsimonious explanation.

[PsyLiam]

Sorry for this slightly off topic question, but something just struck me.

James: How comes you use "Saiya-jin" (ie, the Japanese form), but you also use "Namekian" (the English form)? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Namek-jin"? Or "Saiyan"? Just curious.

[James R. Cadwell]

Sorry for this slightly off topic question, but something just struck me.

James: How comes you use "Saiya-jin" (ie, the Japanese form), but you also use "Namekian" (the English form)? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Namek-jin"? Or "Saiyan"? Just curious.

Habit. There are DB forums full of rabid Japanese purists who complain constantly about using "Saiyan" as opposed to "Saiya-jin". I'm sure you've seen those types of forums before.

Person: Who thinks Super Saiyan is cool?
Purist: It's spelled "Saiya-jin", you baka. Har-har-har. Idiot. Die.

[Zackarotto]

*Notices Omarion's latest post and growls*

Fine, whatever... I'll just go give help to somebody else... like that tour bus of fangirls that needs help being set on fire. Gahrb.

[Omarion]

James

Uh, no. Low-class Saiya-jin are still professional warriors -- they just aren't the most powerful members of Saiya-jin warrior hierarchy. Namekian farmers are farmers. It's pretty sad when the Saiya-jin equivalent of general infantry is completely outclassed by farmers from another species. That would be like the average U.S soldier being outclassed in equipment and ability by Iraqi farmers.

I'll say it again for you. The Nameks only had old men,kids,and farmers. So put that into Saiyan race terms the
Low-Class Saiyan- Old men
Middle-Class Saiyan- Kids
Elite-Class Saiyan- Farmers
So if they where to go like that you tell me who would win? Thats is how it is basically how it goes. So who is stronger?
James

Only Goku and Vegeta are full-blooded Saiya-jin, and neither of them are representative of the average Saiya-jin. Those Namekian farmers may not necessarily be representative of the average Namekian, either, but they were farmers, not warriors. It's an important distinction. The only fighting-type Namekian we saw was Nail, and he was far beyond Radditz and Nappa.

The Farmers were just about the Elite Nameks if you wanna go by ranks as the saiyans. You can tell about the Nameks that the strongest were the farmers. At the end of the Saiyan Saga Goku and Vegeta were the only Saiyans left so they became the average for there Class. When they went to Namek. So there for after Radditz and Nappa died the Saiyans become the stronger race right?
I am pretty sure that at one point if you where stronger than someone adn they surpass you you can't say I am still stronger than him because your not. The Saiyans surpass the Nameks on the Namek saga and there point on. So I guess you might be able to say at one point in time the Nameks were *WERE* stronger than the Saiyans.
James

Let's say that I'm trying to evaluate the average fighting ability of a Canadian citizen. Should I pick someone who represents the average, or should I pick someone who has had martial arts training from birth? Goku may be a low-class Saiya-jin, but he isn't the average low-class Saiya-jin.

Okay well after Radditz died there was only one low-class saiyan so Goku became the average,strongest,weakest low-class Saiyan. There is only one Low-Class Saiyan but many Canadians so yea not a good example there buddy. About the Columbains if there was only one Columbain left and he was Rich than you can Columbains are richer than Americans. Take the Saiyan Race for example only 2 left.
James

No. It indicates that Gohan can become stronger much more quickly and easily than Vegeta. Assuming that Vegeta just didn't train hard enough isn't a particularly parsimonious explanation

Vegeta wasted the frist year right? I think if you waste the frist year you an't training hard buddy. So I waste my frist year of school I guess I am studying and working hard at school for my frist year right?



Hey Zackarotto hey thanks for the help just I hate doing it like that. Because everyone does it like that.