Unpopular DB opinions

[rereboy]

Now you're just rambling. Cell didn't kill #16 because he tried to kill him at that point (he was even a threat to Cell in the first place)... he killed him for being a "nuisance".

I'm analyzing both situations from an evil and senseless point of view, which makes what I said perfectly relevant. Things aren't irrelevant or rambling just because you don't agree.

How many times do I have to see it? Freeza had the Namekians killed specifically because they didn't give him what he wanted. They give them a dragonball but refused to tell him about the others because they didn't wanna snitch so Freeza had them killed.

And how many times do I have to say that Freeza promised to let the children go if they gave the Dragon Balls and that the children did nothing to Freeza? Even if Freeza wanted to get back at the adults for something, the children still had done nothing to him, while #16 actually had actually done something to Cell. Freeza didn't even address the children and all they did was cower in fear and try to run.

See, you're doing it again. You're claiming Gohan shouldn't care about #16 and the fact was destroyed just because Cell said to have his friends and family killed. I'm sorry but that's a pretty asshole-ish way of looking at things... I bet you're one of those people who forsake Goku for supposedly saving Mr. Satan and Dende over the boys and Piccolo.

And yes, I could care a lot. In fact I'd fuck up whoever was orchestrating the events.

You keep misunderstanding and inaccurately portraying my points. I'll be crystal clear about them: Gohan, as a good person, should care for all evil things that he sees happening and therefore he should care about what happened to #16. But he obviously should care WAAAYYY more about his friends and family than #16 when his friends and family are about to be killed, which makes his choice of focusing solely on #16 when they are about to die not work. That's why I'm criticizing the execution and not so much the theory/idea. Period. For example, if Cell hadn't actually ordered the Cell Jrs to kill them off right before #16's head appears, things would automatically be WAAAYYY better.

Also, thanks for indirectly calling me an "asshole" just because I'm arguing that Gohan should care more about his family and friends than #16 when they are about to get killed. Coupled with the "rambling" comment, you managed to indirectly call me a "rambling asshole" in just one post. I'm not sure how that choice elevates the level of the discussion, or how it gives extra weight to your arguments, but perhaps you have a good reason for it besides just trying to insult because I happen to not agree with you...

Actually I think the anime handled this timing well. Android #16's head landed while Cell was still in the middle of barking orders to the Cell juniors. We don't see what's happening during this time, but the stronger Z fighters are still putting up decent fights against the juniors, helping out their weaker members, but gradually being pushed back. In that context, it appears that Gohan does have time, especially if he lacks confidence to deal with the juniors at that very moment. If that scene had played out without #16, I would imagine Gohan continue to watch helplessly until one of his friends actually died, then he'd get the rage boost he needed to actually help them.

I completely disagree. The only ones standing at all were Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks. Everyone else, including Goku, were in the ground, at the mercy of the Cell Jrs. I see no conceivable way for the Cell Jrs to take more than 1 or 2 seconds to finish off the fighters that were on the ground after being ordered to finish them off, and even the ones standing is debatable how long they would hold out.

The events basically unfold like everything and everyone paused once #16's head hit the ground next to Gohan but there's absolutely no reason for that to happen and thus Gohan should be more concerned with the gang than just focusing solely on #16.

[ABED]

Dumb filler is dumb.

That's a really good episode.

[MisteryOne]

Super spoilers, be aware

[spoiler]1.If you ignore the nonsensical power levels, the unnecesary retcons and the worst Deus Ex Machina in the series, Dragon Ball Super episode 66 is one, if not the best episode of the franchise.

Being by far the best villain, even in his last episode Zamasu still shows interestings ideas and development. His fight with Vegito is fantastic Trunks being the one how showed him the power of the mortals was really satisfactory, trough it would have been better if Merged Zamasu's personality was not exactly like Future Zamasu and had something of Goku Black fixed with it. Anyway, that beautiful, on model animation, and that music makes it a fantastic episode. Obviously the first time I saw it I hated it for obvious reasons, but I have later realized how awesome it was in everything but general writing.

2. The Zamasu arc is better than Cell and Boo arcs in a lot of aspects. It could have been way better trough, but the villain alone makes it worth.

3. I like Goku Black's golden SS form. It should have been in the anime (I still prefer Rose trough)

4.Super Trunks is the best looking SS form ever. It's a shame it was pretty much a nonsensical asspull that in the end didn't amount to nothing since Vegeta was the one who surpassed Black. One of the biggests mistakes of Toei with this arc was having both Gendikama sword and Super Trunks instead of just one.

5. The first part of the Zamasu arc is my favourite part in the entire franchise. However, after Bills killed Present Zamasu I feel like if it also killed the great writing of the arc until that point, since after that everything was a dissapointment.

6.After ROF, Goku and Vegeta should have only base and SSGSS forms. Golden forms returning was a mistake in so many levels.

7. Dragon Ball Super's opening fit somehow with the Zamasu arc, but not with the rest of the series. It has some depressing, nostalgic tone.

8. Toyotaro's version of Son Goku is awesome.

9.Roshi being in the Universal Survival Arc is awesome. It's a same that we can't get Goten because of him trough.[/spoiler]

10. Cell arc was the worst arc of the original manga.

11. ROF was worse than anything in GT except the Super 17 arc.

12.I don't like SS4 design. It doesn't feel like a Super Saiyan form at all.

13.Goten and Trunks should have more protagonism in both the Boo arc and after it.

14.Pan needs to get Super Saiyan at some point. I don't care if she's a girl.

15.We Gotta Power is better than Cha-la Head-Cha-La.

16.Vegeta is a better character than Goku.

17.Excluding the first part of Boo arc, Gohan never was the main character of Z.

18. Battle of Gods could have been a great epilogue to the original manga.

19. If done well, fanservice in this series can be a good thing.

20. DB is not a great story compared to other animes. Definetly not the best manganime in the world at some people claim.

21. Broly was interesting, but only in his first movie.

22. At the moment, Super has way more wasted potential than GT, specially on the Zamasu arc (and with the whole Multiverse thing)

23. Zeno is the worst thing that has happened to the franchise.

24.Imperfect Cell is the best incarnation of Cell.

25. Mr Satan was not funny at all in the Cell arc. He made me angry as a kid, and he makes me nervous now as a teen.

26. I would love a recurring villain in the series that actually feels menancing unlike Pilaf [spoiler]like for example Merged Zamasu. I really wish he was just sealed away by Trunks...[/spoiler]

Please excuse my English, is not my first language.

[Cetra]

12.I don't like SS4 design. It doesn't feel like a Super Saiyan form at all.

That could be because it is no "Super Saiyajin".

[MisteryOne]

12.I don't like SS4 design. It doesn't feel like a Super Saiyan form at all.

That could be because it is no "Super Saiyajin".

If you name something Super Saiyan 4, you can't expect me to not expect something that actually looks like a Super Saiyan form. Call it Super Oozaru or whatever, but not name it Super Saiyan 4 like if it is a direct continuation from Super Saiyan 3. The design and the name doesn't fit together.

[Cetra]

12.I don't like SS4 design. It doesn't feel like a Super Saiyan form at all.

That could be because it is no "Super Saiyajin".

If you name something Super Saiyan 4, you can't expect me to not expect something that actually looks like a Super Saiyan form. Call it Super Oozaru or whatever, but not name it Super Saiyan 4 like if it is a direct continuation from Super Saiyan 3. The design and the name doesn't fit together.

It does fit together as in "Super Saiyajin is what you expect as a name for a Saiyajin transformation and give it a higher number to express it is stronger", even if it technically is not a Super Saiyajin.

[MisteryOne]

That could be because it is no "Super Saiyajin".

If you name something Super Saiyan 4, you can't expect me to not expect something that actually looks like a Super Saiyan form. Call it Super Oozaru or whatever, but not name it Super Saiyan 4 like if it is a direct continuation from Super Saiyan 3. The design and the name doesn't fit together.

It does fit together as in "Super Saiyajin is what you expect as a name for a Saiyajin transformation and give it a higher number to express it is stronger", even if it technically is not a Super Saiyajin.

You are saying it by yourself. Tecnically is not a Super Saiyan, and the numbers thing is still dumb because there is another transformation between SS3 and SS4, Golden Ozaru,which by your definition should be the one named Super Saiyan 4.

For me, a Super Saiyan is pretty much a change on the facial features and the hair as far as pshysical differences go. Super Saiyan 4 is too big of a physical change to make me consider a Super Saiyan form. The design could work with something different, but not with a SS form.

[Cetra]

If you name something Super Saiyan 4, you can't expect me to not expect something that actually looks like a Super Saiyan form. Call it Super Oozaru or whatever, but not name it Super Saiyan 4 like if it is a direct continuation from Super Saiyan 3. The design and the name doesn't fit together.

It does fit together as in "Super Saiyajin is what you expect as a name for a Saiyajin transformation and give it a higher number to express it is stronger", even if it technically is not a Super Saiyajin.

You are saying it by yourself. Tecnically is not a Super Saiyan, and the numbers thing is still dumb because there is another transformation between SS3 and SS4, Golden Ozaru,which by your definition should be the one named Super Saiyan 4.

For me, a Super Saiyan is pretty much a change on the facial features and the hair as far as pshysical differences go. Super Saiyan 4 is too big of a physical change to make me consider a Super Saiyan form. The design could work with something different, but not with a SS form.

Golden Oozaru is just the transition. It is like saying the extra forms in the Cell saga need a proper number while we know they have their own weird names. And as already stated, the name is just out of convenience. It sounds (better and) familiar. It is not even like it is not partly connected to SSJ power so we could also consider that.

[MisteryOne]

It does fit together as in "Super Saiyajin is what you expect as a name for a Saiyajin transformation and give it a higher number to express it is stronger", even if it technically is not a Super Saiyajin.

You are saying it by yourself. Tecnically is not a Super Saiyan, and the numbers thing is still dumb because there is another transformation between SS3 and SS4, Golden Ozaru,which by your definition should be the one named Super Saiyan 4.

For me, a Super Saiyan is pretty much a change on the facial features and the hair as far as pshysical differences go. Super Saiyan 4 is too big of a physical change to make me consider a Super Saiyan form. The design could work with something different, but not with a SS form.

Golden Oozaru is just the transition. It is like saying the extra forms in the Cell saga need a proper number while we know they have their own weird names. And as already stated, the name is just out of convenience. It sound better and familiar. It is not even like it is not partly connected to SSJ power so we could also consider that.

First of all, the forms from the Cell arc have nothing to do with Golden Oozaru because:
-we actually don't know if they are a real transition, since Gohan went to SS Full Power without using the rest
-they are still part of the SS1 transformation, while Golden Oozaru is not still part of the Super Saiyan 3 transformation, since Vegeta didn't have SS3 yet he could archieve it
-Golden Oozaru, as I said it's a way more drastic physical change, way more than any of the Cell forms

Second, you are counter-argumenting yourself. Look at the definition that you says that fits with SS4. It fits with the Cell arc forms, as you said. Then, how it does makes sense for them to make it Super Saiyan 4, despite the Cell arc forms being able to be consider in that definition? Just because they are transitions? Because as I said, we don't know if they are required to archieve the SS2 form. We have never seen Gohan in the Grade 3 form and it has never been said that you nned to go trough all the forms to archieve SS2.

Also, Golden Oozaru is not really the transition. Vegeta didn't have SS3, yet he archieved SS4 using basic Oozaru.Is not something linear, and that's why it doesn't make sense to name it SS4.

I don't mind of it sounds familiar, as I'm saying it doesn't feel like a SS form at all and that's my point. Using that logic SSGod should have been SS4, yet since it's something different, that doesn't need that you have the SS3 form to archieve it, it has a different, original name.

Using the logic of «the transition doesn't need a number name but the actual forms do» SSGSS should be named SS4 yet it isn't, because it's something different and not a natural progression from SS3. The way SS4 form was named is clearly not the way Toriyama thinks, and that's what makes a SS form to me.

I don't know we I should considerer different things. As I said, it's an opinion, and in mine SS forms are not as big physical changes as SS4.And both SSGSS and SS4 are not linear transitions from SS3, since in both cases you need something completely different that just have archieved the form before it. In both cases, you don't need SS3, you need something different (God ki/Oozaru), yet SS4 is named like if that was not the case. Super Oozaru, or Super Saiyan Oozaru mode, or i dunno, evrything else would have sound cooler and it would fit more the form imo than SS4.

[Cetra]

First of all, the forms from the Cell arc have nothing to do with Golden Oozaru because:
-we actually don't know if they are a real transition, since Gohan went to SS Full Power without using the rest

All of those forms are only power-ups of a Super Saiyajin form, no matter if it is the extra form or SSJ2 & SSJ3. You do not need to actually go way A to reach one level if there are other way. That does not make the way of developing the extra forms to gradually find the new stronger form non-existent. Maybe transition was a bit misleading but it is not really false.

-they are still part of the SS1 transformation, while Golden Oozaru is not still part of the Super Saiyan 3 transformation, since Vegeta didn't have SS3 yet he could archieve it

Yeah, no wonder. He had extraordinary SSJ powers that allowed him to reach that level. As said, you are looking for the wrong reasoning in terms of the naming. The naming does make sense, you just insist on using the wrong context.

-Golden Oozaru, as I said it's a way more drastic physical change, way more than any of the Cell forms

Completely irrelevant.

Second, you are counter-argumenting yourself.

Not in the slightest, you just do not understand when I am using which context or maybe you do not even care. I hope the first one. You said "by your logic Golden Oozaru should be called SSJ4" which is not the case as I have already told you several transformations can originate from one state but still be "layers inbetween the real next relevant state", which in this case is SSJ4.

Also, Golden Oozaru is not really the transition. Vegeta didn't have SS3, yet he archieved SS4 using basic Oozaru.Is not something linear, and that's why it doesn't make sense to name it SS4.

As said, he had his incredible SSJ powers nonetheless. Which colour the artists in the anime used is not relevant. You are wrong anyway because right before Vegeta turned SSJ4 his brown colour changed to gold so that point does not even need to be touched again. The forms, even with the main reason being "convenience" being connected to SSJ even if they are not the actual next level of SSJ3 have their own right. Not without reason the Perfect Files considered the Golden Oozaru to be the form the Legendary Super Saiyajin of the anime had. You are just wasting way too much effort and breath to make a problem out of the number "4" while not accepting that several relations lead to several answers. 4 was convient and it led to the obvious thinking "its stronger". That had way more priority than "SSJ4 is a direct consequence of SSJ3".

I don't mind of it sounds familiar, as I'm saying it doesn't feel like a SS form at all and that's my point. Using that logic SSGod should have been SS4, yet since it's something different, that doesn't need that you have the SS3 form to archieve it, it has a different, original name.

Using the logic of «the transition doesn't need a number name but the actual forms do» SSGSS should be named SS4 yet it isn't, because it's something different and not a natural progression from SS3. The way SS4 form was named is clearly not the way Toriyama thinks, and that's what makes a SS form to me.

It would be quite hard to market a form with a number when a form with the same number already exists. Also the name "God" is an over the top name that perfectly reflects the entire theme. And just so you know, Toriyama-san did not originally create Super Saiyajin God but rewrote Battle of Gods so saying the name of the form reflects his mind can be very misleading as it was not his mind who made it up. If anything it "is similiar to it".

You just have a hard time of liking the idea that certain concepts and contexts often have greater priority. The "it is a stronger form after channeling the power of the beast and therefore gets its new name, fits with the normal names of the other forms and is easily marketable" idea is no problem at all. Do you actually think 95% of people who watched GT cared about the name, surely not. Would I have a different name I would call it "Lunar (Super) Saiyajin)" but as said the "4 is higher than 3, the name was chosen conveniently with the thought of giving Goku's next humanoid form a name easy to understand, therefore setting higher priority over this than the ordinary evolution chain" is perfectly understandable. If you ask me you are wasting your energy being upset about a name that can be understood easily when knowing "okay, there this context is meant and for that this one is meant".

[LuckyCat]

The only ones standing at all were Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks. Everyone else, including Goku, were in the ground, at the mercy of the Cell Jrs. I see no conceivable way for the Cell Jrs to take more than 1 or 2 seconds to finish off the fighters that were on the ground after being ordered to finish them off, and even the ones standing is debatable how long they would hold out.

The events basically unfold like everything and everyone paused once #16's head hit the ground next to Gohan but there's absolutely no reason for that to happen and thus Gohan should be more concerned with the gang than just focusing solely on #16.

Android #16's head literally lands in mid-speech with Cell. He's in the middle of saying 殺せ！(korose means "kill!") but the interruption makes that break off having him only say "koros-". The only reason why people are interested in #16 at all is that he's flung in-between Gohan and Cell. And like you said, #16 just tried to kill Cell a moment ago, so it's not odd at all that Cell would be curious what #16 was up to.

[Sailor Haumea]

GT and Super are in the same timeline. We're just missing the episode linking them.

[WobbuSleuth]

GT and Super are in the same timeline. We're just missing the episode linking them.

Even if we ignore young Pilaf gang (they can simply wish to become "older"), we still have Beerus, Champa, 12 universes, Super Saiyan Blue e.t.c
It doesn't fit with GT at all.

[Sailor Haumea]

GT and Super are in the same timeline. We're just missing the episode linking them.

Even if we ignore young Pilaf gang (they can simply wish to become "older"), we still have Beerus, Champa, 12 universes, Super Saiyan Blue e.t.c
It doesn't fit with GT at all.

Did you not catch the part about us missing the linking episode?

[WobbuSleuth]

GT and Super are in the same timeline. We're just missing the episode linking them.

Even if we ignore young Pilaf gang (they can simply wish to become "older"), we still have Beerus, Champa, 12 universes, Super Saiyan Blue e.t.c
It doesn't fit with GT at all.

Did you not catch the part about us missing the linking episode?

Only one episode cannot link two completely separate and different series. I think, even story arc wouldn't be enough.
It's possible, that GT happened one of the 12 universes (minus 7 universe), though.

[ekrolo2]

Only one episode cannot link two completely separate and different series. I think, even story arc wouldn't be enough.
It's possible, that GT happened one of the 12 universes (minus 7 universe), though.

The DB multiverse doesn't work like that, its not just 12 copies of Earth with Goku & co.

[WobbuSleuth]

Only one episode cannot link two completely separate and different series. I think, even story arc wouldn't be enough.
It's possible, that GT happened one of the 12 universes (minus 7 universe), though.

The DB multiverse doesn't work like that, its not just 12 copies of Earth with Goku & co.

I understand that, but I think, that can be one universe that will be VERY similar to universe 7.
It's very... Err... Classic plot point. Almost as evil counterpart of main character.

[Cetra]

GT and Super are in the same timeline. We're just missing the episode linking them.

Even if we ignore young Pilaf gang (they can simply wish to become "older"), we still have Beerus, Champa, 12 universes, Super Saiyan Blue e.t.c
It doesn't fit with GT at all.

The elements you mention are not contradictory to GT at all. We do not see them, so what? There is no actual impossibility inbetween. Really the only extremely unlikely thing is Kibitoshin and even that could technically be changed.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

While Kikuchi is superior to Tokunaga (and all other composers who ever worked on Dragon Ball) overall this is the single greatest tune ever composed for the series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGXU3rp ... E&index=41

[Nejishiki]

I understand that, but I think, that can be one universe that will be VERY similar to universe 7.
It's very... Err... Classic plot point. Almost as evil counterpart of main character.

In-universe, the "very similar" universe to Universe 7 is Universe 6, given that it's a twin universe.