Non-thread-worthy discussions

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Is there a particular reason everyone (who's not on here) thinks EoZ is just an anime only setup for GT?

Honestly, it's not a very memorable ending. Easy to forget that the GT characters were set up before GT.

[Gog]

I don't think that this is thread worthy so here I go...

I hate the idea that in the namek saga Freeza's first three forms suppress his power, that takes more effort then actually learning how to suppress your power. I'm even baffled at how he was capable of designing three whole completely different forms for the sole use of suppressing his power. That's like having a really good car, then remaking it into an inferior model three times.

But there was the chance that Freeza was talking out of his ass, and the android arc rolled around, and Freeza's Father King cold showed up with Freeza. Now King Cold is in his second form as it looks to similar to second form Freeza.

Here's a comparison; King cold
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Here's a comparison Freeza
[spoiler][/spoiler]

The two are to similar enough to make me believe that King Cold is in the second form.

I now want to recap what happened next:

Trunks kills Freeza, and the soldiers, he goes to King Cold, and King cold charms Trunks into giving him his sword, and tries, to kill him with it? Trunks of course kills King Cold effortlessly.
What was that? What King Cold just did there doesn't make any sense at all.

There are only two possibilities to this, one King Cold is a moron who instead of transforming into his finial form and punting this time traveling fool into the ground, chooses to grab his long sword, and use it for himself, which doesn't make any sense considering his past characterization, of being cunning, and intelligent.

Or he couldn't transform and he was betting everything on the fact that Trunks sword was the source of his power, his last gambit. His last hope of victory. His last chance to live

The second option does more justice to King cold's character and doesn't make him seem like a mentally challenged father, who Freeza has to wipe his nappy's for him, and force feed him baby food.

Even though he is non canon, there is Lord Chilled, the man with the worse design in the entire franchise

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Now this is the most baffling part in the bardock special, besides the special existing in the first place, and Bardock time traveling, Bardocks new personality implant, Bardock turning super Saiyan.

When Bardock transforms into super Saiyan, why didn't Chilled Giggle announce that this wasn't even his finial form and transform into his second, his third, and then into his finial form, his supposed true form.

Unless he couldn't transform, that also leads to another thing.

Chilled's in the true form of the arcosians (i know its a non canon term, and dubism, BUT come on its the perfect name for their race.

I know it might sound insane, but it make's the most sense for the true form to be the first form, it reasons why the three forms are there, the forms are simply just argumentation's on Freeza's true form his first form.

That is also a reason why Freeza still roams around in the first form in fukatsu no f, it doesn't make sense for him to be using the form that divides his power by three hundred times. Unless he's like Goku, and its the form he was born in.

(but the most likely scenario on why the forms past the namek saga seem to be augmentations rather than suppression forms is because Toriyama forgot)

[Danfun64]

I missed the very beginning of Toonami DB Super. What version of "Chozetsu Dynamic" did it use? Japanese, Toei English, or did Funi create its own version? (I saw that "Hello Hello Hello" was still in Japanese, and for DBZ Kai Final Chapters "Fight it Out" and "Never Give Up" were their original versions.)

[Footlong Shoe]

I missed the very beginning of Toonami DB Super. What version of "Chozetsu Dynamic" did it use? Japanese, Toei English, or did Funi create its own version? (I saw that "Hello Hello Hello" was still in Japanese, and for DBZ Kai Final Chapters "Fight it Out" and "Never Give Up" were their original versions.)

It was the original Japanese version.

I was a little disappointed that they didn't dub the opening, but I'm glad they didn't use the Japanese-English version, which wouldn't have surprised me after the whole situation with the movies.

[Danfun64]

There was also the matter of the Japanese English version bring used for the Toei Super Simulcast subs. That honestly made me a little surprised that if nothing else Toei would allow Funi to use that version for the dub opening. And to be fair, it wasn't the worst Japanese English theme the DB franchise ever got (that would be Makafushigi Adventure. Way to ruin an awesome some like that -.-)

[Nejishiki]

*swish*

Well, just to point it out, your premise relies on Freeza going too far out of his way to suppress himself. Considering how matter-of-factly he speaks of it, isn't it equally valid that it didn't significantly take up his day? You're reading as if it really bothers you so do know there are alternative interpretations that'll leave you stress-free! Now, I'll have to disagree with Cold having a second form. Fortunately, I talked about this recently so I can be lazy & quote myself. But supposing he even could, don't forget Future Trunks was trained a class above Freeza thus Cold wouldn't fare any better against him.

[...] With Freeza & Cold classified as unique individuals within their race, their standards wouldn't be considered normal compared to the rest of their people. A likely story is that Freeza developed his second-to-last form after his father instead. With Cold established as being weaker than his son, even if he were capable of molding himself like Freeza, his appearance is incredibly likely to be his one & only look. It's not as if Freeza crafting a three-step guide towards his natural appearance was something he was born with.

Cold earnestly believed that Future Trunks wasn't the real deal. It had to be something, perhaps his sword, granting him the means to easily destroy the enhanced land shark. After all, nobody could possibly be stronger than them normally. As far as he's concerned, he's second only to his son in Universe 7 so the doubt was reasonable in his mind. Recall that they openly denied the legitimacy of Super Saiyan's power, too. That's something they can actually confirm! "Surely, it's all hype", he probably thought to himself then & in the now.

Cold took extreme pride in the authority of his clan & his placement in the universe. You'll need to understand how unfathomable the scenario was through his perspective. It's normal for individuals like that to rationalize alternate explanations instead of accepting fault lies on their side. That's especially the case if they're unchallenged for so long. The evidence blowing against his face isn't enough to convince him otherwise. It will never be him or his Freeza erring. If he could inherit a catchphrase, it would be Mr. Satan's.

So no, I'd argue that doesn't make him "a moron" nor the stronger adjectives you used. I'm not following the extremities applied when his actions complement who & what he's supposed to be. It's a fair reflection of his personality to come up what he did to "take out the trash" with Future Trunks' own weapon. Not only was he extremely angry about the situation but I'm sure he wasn't going to stop at one slice & a stab. He's as cruel as Freeza & would likely make Future Trunks suffer for sullying the name of his clan. Freeza behaves the same when he feels insulted. He needs to make a devastating, lasting point (with a blade in Cold's Case). That's consistent with what we know of the two. They'll relish in their punishment game against others. Saiyans really get it bad if you think about Vegeta's beating. I bet Cold was preparing similar plans.

For the sake of addressing it, Episode of Bardock is considered a "What-if" story. Its tale doesn't apply to the main continuity. However, even if we use main continuity establishments to support the story, Chilled wouldn't be expected to transform in the distant past. For one, if he could, he would. It would save his life if Freeza recovering damage from his transformations is anything to go by.

Cold & Chilled share that trait in common: They were at death's door & never bothered doing anything that could save themselves. I think that's reasonable analysis. The narrative would have them morph if it were possible, viable even. Therefore, it's probably plausible that Chilled's appearance was natural, too. There's argument that another member of their species carried a mutation in the distant past but it's apparently not Chilled going by my previous reasoning.

Regarding Resurrection F, Freeza's training isn't detailed so there's no foul to pick for whatever plausible method of growth he employed. I can't conclude Freeza resting in his "final" form as evidence that Toriyama forgot anything. If that were the case, he would be revived in his natural form, wouldn't he? If anything, as related towards the flaw of Golden, he likely had to suppress his strength once again.

He couldn't manage holding his power & stamina in the past too long with "100%" & history repeated itself when he was unable to figure that out in the present, too. That makes sense, I think. Train as he might, he ran into his old wall again. Being self-taught, he never knew proper fundamentals, so to speak. He thrived through his talent. I don't think that's surprising at all. Freeza was always one to think of revenge first, humiliation second. I don't think Hell assisted his mentality in relation to how quickly he sought vengeance. It made him desire it more instead of settling back. He felt disgusted that he needed to train at all but anything to make sure he gains a peaceful sleep again. The energy of his rationales were applied elsewhere to his benefit & detriment.

If you're aware that Arcosians were exclusive to FUNimation's Dragon Ball Z then surely you know that it didn't refer to Freeza's race? The Arcosians, exclusively existing in one source alone & detailed in my image, were the humans that dealt with the Saiyans in trade. That specific terminology was never intended to be associated with Freeza's race given that it belongs to another species.

[kinisking]

Why didn't King Kai teach Goku about God ki?

Also Gotenks versus Majin Boo is so underrated.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Why didn't King Kai teach Goku about God ki?.

It didn't exist yet.

[kinisking]

Why didn't King Kai teach Goku about God ki?.

It didn't exist yet.

Well in-universe it kind of seems like a plot hole. I guess it could be explained that he didn't know it could be taught because he was born with it, but Whis knew because it's his job to teach it to GoD's.

One more thing, people complain about how skinny the characters are in DBZ but I've been re-reading the boo saga and their muscles are smaller or around the same as in in Super a lot of the time.

[Makaioshin]

Why didn't King Kai teach Goku about God ki?

Teaching something like that wouldn't really be relevant to Goku's situation. Also are we even certain that Kaio himself has god ki?

[kinisking]

Why didn't King Kai teach Goku about God ki?

Teaching something like that wouldn't really be relevant to Goku's situation. Also are we even certain that Kaio himself has god ki?

A huge power boost wouldn't be relevant? And why would a god not have god ki?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Also are we even certain that Kaio himself has god ki?

Zamasu's remarks seem to imply that SSB contained "the power of the gods", meaning that Zamasu is familiar with this power. If we extrapolate that, it would seem that Kaio and Kaioshin also wield some sort of God Ki (remember, Piccolo noticed an abnormality in Kaioshin's Ki the first time they met as well), contradictions be damned!

[Makaioshin]

A huge power boost wouldn't be relevant? And why would a god not have god ki?

Kaio himself says he couldn't last against the Saiyans and those old BP things have him weaker than Nappa. Even if he had god ki it would make more sense to build on what Goku already knows rather than start from scratch. And it seems certain that all the upper gods possess god ki but do the lower ones? Probably not Dende but do like Enma Daio and the Kaio have it? If he can't sense Kaio how did he teleport to him?

[Draconic]

Why didn't King Kai teach Goku about God ki?

Also Gotenks versus Majin Boo is so underrated.

Well, Kaio might have not known there's a way for Goku to get God Ki without actually having the position of a God. Not to mention getting it wouldn't have necessarily given him the same power up the ritual did, since the Kaios are pretty weak even with it. Being able not to be sensed could have come in handy a couple of times and Kaioken would have been easier to use (though still taxing), but that's about it.

Also, true. While Gotenks vs Boo drags a little, it's mostly entartaining even when it does. Certainly one of the better fights of the Buu arc.

[Khin]

If he can't sense Kaio how did he teleport to him?

One of the fan theory I read suggests that Goku was sensing Bubbles instead, this is seemingly supported in the Cell Arc where Goku was with Bubbles when he used Shunkan Ido to go to Kaio's planet to locate the new Namek, and only found Kaio lying on a bed after searching around.

That or Toriyama/Toei simply overlooked this stuff.

[kinisking]

Why didn't King Kai teach Goku about God ki?

Also Gotenks versus Majin Boo is so underrated.

Well, Kaio might have not known there's a way for Goku to get God Ki without actually having the position of a God. Not to mention getting it wouldn't have necessarily given him the same power up the ritual did, since the Kaios are pretty weak even with it. Being able not to be sensed could have come in handy a couple of times and Kaioken would have been easier to use (though still taxing), but that's about it.

Also, true. While Gotenks vs Boo drags a little, it's mostly entartaining even when it does. Certainly one of the better fights of the Buu arc.

Yeah I can believe that he didn't know that a mortal could obtain it. Also, for all we know the power up king Kai gets from having God ki is huge too. Without it, he might have been as strong as an average human. God ki most likely multiplies ones own strength because Toriyama stated that ssg's power depends on the one weilding it. We know for a fact that God ki itself gives a huge boost in power because vegeta never did the ritual but he still got much stronger.

[Khin]

Does obtaining 'God Ki' even makes you stronger? Gods like Kami and Kaio are relative weaklings despite presumably having divine Ki. And as far as we know, the only reason why Goku got so strong is because he absorbed the power of the Super Saiyan God. Likewise, Vegeta also did it by achieving the SSjG god power with Whis' training.

I think it's impossible for Goku to achieve 'God Ki' unless it's the power of the Super Saiyan God, a stuff which Kaio probably don't know or have the ability to train someone to achieve it on their own like Whis.

[Draconic]

Why didn't King Kai teach Goku about God ki?

Also Gotenks versus Majin Boo is so underrated.

Well, Kaio might have not known there's a way for Goku to get God Ki without actually having the position of a God. Not to mention getting it wouldn't have necessarily given him the same power up the ritual did, since the Kaios are pretty weak even with it. Being able not to be sensed could have come in handy a couple of times and Kaioken would have been easier to use (though still taxing), but that's about it.

Also, true. While Gotenks vs Boo drags a little, it's mostly entartaining even when it does. Certainly one of the better fights of the Buu arc.

Yeah I can believe that he didn't know that a mortal could obtain it. Also, for all we know the power up king Kai gets from having God ki is huge too. Without it, he might have been as strong as an average human. God ki most likely multiplies ones own strength because Toriyama stated that ssg's power depends on the one weilding it. We know for a fact that God ki itself gives a huge boost in power because vegeta never did the ritual but he still got much stronger.

I don't think attributing all the great power Goku and Vegeta got to just God Ki is not quite right. The ritual unlocked a whole new tranaformation using God ki, but I think there should have been more to it than that, like with any form that came before which didn't change the Ki (in such a drastic/useful way). Goku and Vegeta, besides getting it, also trained with Whis, who being the trainer of Haikaishin, must know how to bring out God ki's benefits to their max.

Also, Dende got God Ki when he became a god, but he never really got stronger in any significant way. He was a Namekian, so stronger than the average human, so if the power up from it was so massive it would have probably been noted, but in the Buu arc he is not considered for fusion by Goku.

[Gog]

*swish*

Well, just to point it out, your premise relies on Freeza going too far out of his way to suppress himself. Considering how matter-of-factly he speaks of it, isn't it equally valid that it didn't significantly take up his day? You're reading as if it really bothers you so do know there are alternative interpretations that'll leave you stress-free!

But he did significantly suppress himself in fact he suppressed his power so much it made the namek saga possible. When you have three whole forms only designed to lower your over whelming power, why bother? Freeza is lazy, it would take less effort to just go and lower the power in his finial form, rather than three whole other forms that decrease his power by 300 times. Also the idea that the forms supress your power is just idiotic, and i'll get to this point again but why didn't Freeza just suppress his power? Unless there augmentations

Now the topic of Cold and Chilled, and Trunks.

Now, I'll have to disagree with Cold having a second form. Fortunately, I talked about this recently so I can be lazy & quote myself. But supposing he even could, don't forget Future Trunks was trained a class above Freeza thus Cold wouldn't fare any better against him

What is the evidence that Cold isn't in his second form, he can't be in his finial form, he can't be in his third form, he can't be in his first form, how is that he isn't in his second form . But I digress, Future Trunks was a league above Mecha Freeza, he was significantly weaker than he was on Namek, and Cold's just pathetic, compared to both.

.

[...] With Freeza & Cold classified as unique individuals within their race, their standards wouldn't be considered normal compared to the rest of their people.

Yeah, I already knew that, but its nice that you brought it up.

A likely story is that Freeza developed his second-to-last form after his father instead. With Cold established as being [/]weaker than his son, even if he were capable of molding himself like Freeza, his appearance is incredibly likely to be his one & only look. It's not as if Freeza crafting a three-step guide towards his natural appearance was something he was born with.

Okay i'm going to be honest, i never did buy into the idea that the arcosians,(its a dubism, but its got the pun, i swear!) could look down on at there arm and go, "need spike hrrnggh" and a spike pops up, it just doesn't make any sense, so the idea that the arcosians are capable of creating whole entire forms, and molding themselves, makes no sense. You raise a good point if he can't 'mold' himself like Freeza then he is in his second form, its as simple as that. Except Freeza didn't create a three step guide. I'm going to go out of my way, and use the other canon arcosian who can transform.

Frost

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Now Frost is a member of the arcosians, he is not Freeza, I will admit however that Frost is the Stalin to Freeza's hitler, Frost can transform. He can transform and his transformations besides a few spike differences, look identical. Since frost and Freeza are the only two arcosians to ever transform, we have to assume that all arcosian's have the same looking forms, besides minor spike differences.
The four forms can't be molded, that is what we've been shown, they look the same, honestly the idea that the forms can be molded is like a blue super Saiyan showing up, and revealing its possible to change the color of the super Saiyan hair.



For the sake of addressing it, Episode of Bardock is [url=http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... roduction/]considered a "What-if" story. Its tale doesn't apply to the main continuity. However, even if we use main continuity establishments to support the story, Chilled wouldn't be expected to transform in the distant past. For one, if he could, he would. It would save his life if Freeza recovering damage from his transformations is anything to go by.

Then Chilled is a prideful idiot, and it totally would save his life, as Bardock is a Saiyan and would let him transform.

Cold & Chilled share that trait in common: They were at death's door & never bothered doing anything that could save themselves. I think that's reasonable analysis. The narrative would have them morph if it were possible, viable even. Therefore, it's probably plausible that Chilled's appearance was natural, too. There's argument that another member of their species carried a mutation in the distant past but it's apparently not Chilled going by my previous reasoning.

So do you admit the ability of augmentation is simply a mutation? And that's what makes Freeza and King cold so special, among their race?

Regarding Resurrection F, Freeza's training isn't detailed so there's no foul to pick for whatever plausible method of growth he employed. I can't conclude Freeza resting in his "final" form as evidence that Toriyama forgot anything. If that were the case, he would be revived in his natural form, wouldn't he? If anything, as related towards the flaw of Golden, he likely had to suppress his strength once again.

Except, that is not how the augmentation forms work, they aren't like the super Saiyan form where if you get knocked out or killed it turns off, the augmentation forms don't work like that, there such a more drastic and permanent change. No as I explained Freeza would be revived in the state he died in, mechanical and in pieces, and in his final form, just like Vegeta in the namek saga.

No, there isn't any reason for Freeza to use his first form, it has been outright stated that he has mastered his finial form, i;e he can stay in it comfortably, like full power super Saiyan.

Unless its not his true form.

He couldn't manage holding his power & stamina in the past too long with "100%" & history repeated itself when he was unable to figure that out in the present, too.

No, he couldn't manage his power, and stamina once he hit 100%, that's it, he can hold himself at 10%, or twenty%, or even five%, its simply when he hit 100% that he hits all these problems. That's why there is simply no reason for why he should have the first three forms, if they lower your power, then they simply shouldn't be there, they would be useless, but Freeza still uses it.

That makes sense, I think. Train as he might, he ran into his old wall again. Being self-taught, he never knew proper fundamentals, so to speak. He thrived through his talent.

Except it is outright stated that Freeza has never, ever trained a single day in his life, he only knows the basics of ki control. probably watched two warriors fighting as a kid, and thought he could do better.

I don't think that's surprising at all. Freeza was always one to think of revenge first, humiliation second.

I could not agree more with a sentence

I don't think Hell assisted his mentality in relation to how quickly he sought vengeance. It made him desire it more instead of settling back. He felt disgusted that he needed to train at all but anything to make sure he gains a peaceful sleep again. The energy of his rationales were applied elsewhere to his benefit & detriment.

Huh? What does that have to do, I have to assume from your sentance that you mean, that Freeza needed to sleep in his first form, to gain a good night sleep? Nothing has ever suggested that. Ever. Your delving into fan fiction territory with that. Damn i need to go read Savior of demons again.

Unless I've misunderstood you, and have hilariously botched up your message.




If you're aware that Arcosians were exclusive to FUNimation's Dragon Ball Z then surely you know that it didn't refer to Freeza's race? The Arcosians, exclusively existing in one source alone & detailed in my image, were the humans that dealt with the Saiyans in trade. That specific terminology was never intended to be associated with Freeza's race given that it belongs to another species.

Except what do I have but arcosians, Changling? Doesn't feel like the name of a race, Icejin? Suffers from the same problems as the first one, frost demons? That sounds more like a slur than anything. There is a common trend with all these names, in that they are all fan made, because they don't have a name, and i refuse to refer to them as Frieza's race because that isn't even a name.

Arcosians is the best bet, as it even has the pun, we didn't know who those humanoids were, they could easily be some arcosians in there first form, there true form.

It also has the pun.

Cold earnestly believed that Future Trunks wasn't the real deal. It had to be something, perhaps his sword, granting him the means to easily destroy the enhanced land shark. After all, nobody could possibly be stronger than them normally. As far as he's concerned, he's second only to his son in Universe 7 so the doubt was reasonable in his mind. Recall that they openly denied the legitimacy of Super Saiyan's power, too.

So King Cold was a fool, that still didn't mean that when Trunks grabs the sword, and easily over powers him, King Cold couldn't shout "WAIT LET ME TRANSFORM", but he never did, so he is either a fool, or he is already in his finial form, the second one. And yes I know Trunks wouldn't let him transform, but it would have been something, that signalizes that King cold is capable. But it never happens

That's something they can actually confirm! "Surely, it's all hype", he probably thought to himself then & in the now. Cold took extreme pride in the authority of his clan & his placement in the universe. You'll need to understand how unfathomable the scenario was through his perspective. It's normal for individuals like that to rationalize alternate explanations instead of accepting fault lies on their side. That's especially the case if they're unchallenged for so long. The evidence blowing against his face isn't enough to convince him otherwise. It will never be him or his Freeza erring. If he could inherit a catchphrase, it would be Mr. Satan's.

Your right it would be unfathomable at first, Freeza defeated? The strongest being in the universe defeated? The whole scenario should be unrealistic to him at first, but he was the one who helped save Freeza, he would have seen Freeza missing most of his body, and if he didn't see Freeza being worked on to keep him alive, he at the very least would have seen Freeza on the ship, standing next to him, outfitted with all the cybernetics to keep him functioning. If he couldn't even believe the legend of the super Saiyan, even seeing his son, at his best defeated by one, and his son a shadow of himself, being kept alive by cybernetics. If doubt didn't at least flare up in his mind after witnessing this, and if he could transform, and never took the chance to on the ship. Then he is a fool, and if everything blowing up in his face never convinced him. Then Hercule's catch phrase does suit him, (i did laugh at that)

So no, I'd argue that doesn't make him "a moron" nor the stronger adjectives you used. I'm not following the extremities applied when his actions complement who & what he's supposed to be.

Your right, he isn't a moron, or any of my stronger describing words, he is a fool. He runs an empire, he can't be an idiot, but he is a fool.

It's a fair reflection of his personality to come up what he did to "take out the trash" with Future Trunks' own weapon. Not only was he extremely angry about the situation but I'm sure he wasn't going to stop at one slice & a stab.

No, it would have been an even better reflection of his personality to transform into his finial form, "and take out the monkey, with its puny weapon". It would have shown that he wasn't going to take any risks, but he was still going to do the dirty work.

Unless he couldn't transform

He's as cruel as Freeza & would likely make Future Trunks suffer for sullying the name of his clan. Freeza behaves the same when he feels insulted. He needs to make a devastating, lasting point (with a blade in Cold's Case). That's consistent with what we know of the two. They'll relish in their punishment game against others. Saiyans really get it bad if you think about Vegeta's beating. I bet Cold was preparing similar plans.

Yeah, there is no denying that he is as cruel as Freeza, but if Cold would wanted to make a devastating lasting impact, why didn't he just transform? Oh right he couldn't carrying on. Your right he did need to make a lasting impact, and the blade was his best bet to do that.
His only bet. His last chance


I apologize over the glitches...

[Sailor Haumea]

This is kinda random, but does anyone else think that during the whole "make into a cyborg" thing he did to Lazuli, Gero made her a hermaphrodite? It just sounds like something a crazy scientist might do.