Non-thread-worthy discussions

[Nejishiki]

*squien*

I provided Chapter 296's dialogue from my personal Dragon Ball volume. While I used Kanzenshuu's guide for reference, it's still considered a summary & the staff is not expected to write the story's script verbatim. Freeza being the lone shark to create his suppression forms, because he felt too powerful & out of control without them, is accurate. It only applies to him.

While Freeza has the concept of raising ki, he doesn't doesn't understand it completely nor amplifies it like our main cast does. He, alongside the rest of his forces, release their powers in strict sets. It's another minor detail yet the distinction is important. Finally, Freeza's own words confirm his personal thought process. The motives behind his designs don't affect his decision. Concerning this overall, I believe we reached an impasse on this particular matter. I feel as if I properly addressed all inquiries before & new considerations are absent now.

Goku's strength compared to Namek's destruction & his return to Earth isn't specified. There's not much to say with, "He's stronger than Future Trunks who is stronger than everyone else". There's no need for me to choose anything as I'll follow the story presented! There's minutia, sure. I'm not really interested in that though. It's a slippery slope of fictional numbers never intended to be applied to the original story. The basics that I provided are sufficient & more importantly, the story isn't altered by knowing the placements of "The Gap".

I'm not sure why you mentioned Cell. If he overpowered Gohan & reached the sun, he would accomplish destroying a solar system. The narrative does not paint Cell as a liar in that regard. Mind you, while I'm not opposed to speaking about all aspects of the series, I'm no fan of deviating too far from the main point I wish to illustrate.
That is, unless we're changing the main subject to something else entirely.

[Gog]

*squien*

I provided Chapter 296's dialogue from my personal Dragon Ball volume. While I referenced Kanzenshuu's guide for reference, it's still considered a summary & the staff is not expected to write the story's script verbatim. Freeza being the lone shark to create his suppression forms, because he felt too powerful & out of control without them, is accurate. It only applies to him.

While Freeza has the concept of raising ki, he doesn't doesn't understand it completely nor amplifies it like our main cast does. He, alongside the rest of his forces, release their powers in strict sets. It's another minor detail yet the distinction is important. Finally, Freeza's own words confirm his personal thought process. The motives behind his designs don't affect his decision. Concerning this overall, I believe we reached an impasse on this particular matter. I feel as if I properly addressed all inquiries before & new considerations are absent now.

Goku's strength compared to Namek's destruction & his return to Earth isn't specified. There's not much to say with, "He's stronger than Future Trunks who is stronger than everyone else". There's no need for me to choose anything as I'll follow the story presented! There's minutia, sure. I'm not really interested in that though. It's a slippery slope of fictional numbers never intended to be applied to the original story. The basics that I provided are sufficient & more importantly, the story isn't altered by knowing the placements of "The Gap".

I'm not sure why you mentioned Cell. If he overpowered Gohan & reached the sun, he would accomplish destroying a solar system. The narrative does not paint Cell as a liar in that regard. Mind you, while I'm not opposed to speaking about all aspects of the series, I'm no fan of deviating too far from the main point I wish to illustrate.
That is, unless we're changing the main subject to something else entirely.

[spoiler]Actually before we start this dance again, the reason why I'm using what Cell said is because he said something clearly in the narrative, but he never once proved it, and his most powerful clash with Gohan didn't even destroy the planet, so what Cell has said, has now been thrown into doubt. Its the same with Freeza what he has said, has been thrown into doubt by what we've seen. Don't worry were not going onto a new topic, I'm just using the perfect comparison to make my point .

And also good on you for actually answering the kanzenshuu guide, that unlike another debate I'm having where the opposite hasn't even acknowledged my other points, besides Freeza being able to control his finial form. But one more thing before we go on, nothing ever states that the kanzenshuu guide is a summarized guide, and if Freeza's forms are 'apparently' unless their not? Now let me dive head long into your argument.[/spoiler]

But then If Freeza is the lone shark with his suppression forms, does that mean that their augmentation forms, as you have admitted that Chilled himself couldn't transform, and he wasn't even in his finial form and King Cold has never displayed the ability for transformations, outside of the second form, also I can totally accept the fact that their augmentations, but since the finial form is so hard to use, he just uses the first three forms to suppress his power in a way. Like super Saiyan three in a way.

Well I, well I'm grateful you went and cleared that part up, however *ahem* that still doesn't mean that it would have been that just learning to control his 'true' form would have been easier than just simply creating three whole forms, that would be painful to transform in. You know Coola if he was canon would be the shining example of a mutant, he didn't stop at the second form like his father, he got to the finial for like Freeza, and he stuck to the finial form and mastered it like Goku would do with super Saiyan. But unlike Goku he stuck to it too much. Coola's mother would be proud (also, getting off topic, but we can pretty much agree that they aren't asexual because of the genetic amount of differences between them)



I would like to drop the future trunks part as it is basically delving off topic at this point, and I feel like we will never get any where on that, so do you agree than?

[ekrolo2]

Does anyone else think Toriyama would've retconned the 6-10-15 scale if U6 and Black arcs were made into movies and worked? Cause you can't keep U6 team as is without suddenly having a whole group of people who'd be almost if not just as strong as Champa and Beerus.

[Nejishiki]

Well, the thing about that: It's never put under doubt by anyone else, narrator or otherwise. There's no relation between him not destroying the planet with the "beam struggle" & being capable of destroying the solar system. In context, Cell wished to kill Gohan, then the rest of them, in that specific order & with that particular method to mock Gohan's failure.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I originally said Cold & Chilled couldn't transform because that's their natural & only appearance. The reason for that belief? Because only Freeza transforms & provides explanation for why he does so. I never delved into the rest of what you're proposing. I only support the one interpretation provided in the story: Freeza developed three, suppressed forms. That's why I believed we reached an impasse earlier. I see nothing new to consider, unfortunately. It's grounds I've already covered & repeated. ^^;; For example, you oppose Freeza's motives for developing new forms. Strong implication exists where he didn't want to make his natural form easier to control. That's why I answered that he possibly suppressed himself out of convenience & illustrated why doing something else may possibly be simpler than altering a base "model". Only Freeza himself can answer these questions specifically but his actions make it apparent that he didn't believe managing his natural form was worth his time. And really, as I persist, nothing changes from these answers anyway.

By the way, you're aware that Kanzenshuu, the website, is run by four, wonderful individuals, right? I'm sure you flatter them with your impressions but their manga guide is something they wrote. It's not official material, if you thought that.

Does anyone else think Toriyama would've retconned the 6-10-15 scale if U6 and Black arcs were made into movies and worked? Cause you can't keep U6 team as is without suddenly having a whole group of people who'd be almost if not just as strong as Champa and Beerus.

Personally, I think he would alter it as a screenplay to account for roughly two hours of run time. Dragon Ball Super seems outlined with television in mind, not that I can confirm that but it's written like an OVA to me.

[ekrolo2]

Does anyone else think Toriyama would've retconned the 6-10-15 scale if U6 and Black arcs were made into movies and worked? Cause you can't keep U6 team as is without suddenly having a whole group of people who'd be almost if not just as strong as Champa and Beerus.

Personally, I think he would alter it as a screenplay to account for roughly two hours of run time. Dragon Ball Super seems outlined with television in mind, not that I can confirm that but it's written like an OVA to me.

He definitely would've done that but I'm really curious what he'd do power wise with it since he established Goku and Vegeta as not being too far off from Beerus as of F. I suspect that might be why in U6 and retroactively in the retellings, Beerus is constantly way, way, way above them while BoG & F have him relatively close to Goku & Vegeta.

[Gog]

Well, the thing about that: It's never put under doubt by anyone else, narrator or otherwise. There's no relation between him not destroying the planet with the "beam struggle" & being capable of destroying the solar system. In context, Cell wished to kill Gohan, then the rest of them, in that specific order & with that particular method to mock Gohan's failure.

Yeah he just never proves it unfortunately, I would actually prefer it that the beam clash did destroy the solar system, so Goku has to go to namek to wish everyone back, would have at the very least proved that Cell, the man with Vegeta, and Freeza inside of him was speaking the truth

I think you're misunderstanding me. I originally said Cold & Chilled couldn't transform because that's their natural & only appearance. The reason for that belief? Because only Freeza transforms & provides explanation for why he does so.

Then that means that I can say that a Saiyan is born at various levels of super Saiyan in the womb, but the moment they come out they turn into a lowered form, so that's the reason why Vegeta could never get super Saiyan three, because he was only born as a super Saiyan two, while Goku was born as a super Saiyan three. The reason for this belief is because Vegeta could never ever get super Saiyan three even when he tried. nothing clashes with it in the narrative, and it even provides an explanation.
Do you realize how dumb that is

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

The idea that all of these forms are their true form is asinine, and I'm sorry to say it very naive, besides Chilled's form being a disgusting abomination that should have never seen the light of day, and was made by Akira Toriyama while he was having a fever dream, is irrelevant to the discussion. Because then how does Freeza actually transform downwards then? Is he just a hyper evolved being who can go transform through the different evolutionary states of his states? With Chilled being in the current state, and Cold in the next state?

Just because something is stated dosen't mean that is true, seriously

I never delved into the rest of what you're proposing. I only support the one interpretation provided in the story: Freeza developed three, suppressed forms.

In the namekian arc a Saiyan is stated to be only capable of transforming into a super Saiyan unless they are pure of heart, and that they only transform once every one thousand years, cue to the next arc the android, where another man transforms into a super Saiyan, and Vegeta manages to transform into a super Saiyan besides being a disgusting scum bag. In the Narrative it was outright stated that the super Saiyan had to be pure of heart, and only appears once every one thousand years.

What Freeza states just doesn't, flat up add up to what we've seen.

That's why I believed we reached an impasse earlier. I see nothing new to consider, unfortunately. It's grounds I've already covered & repeated. ^^;; For example, you oppose Freeza's motives for developing new forms. Strong implication exists where he didn't want to make his natural form easier to control. That's why I answered that he possibly suppressed himself out of convenience & illustrated why doing something else may possibly be simpler than altering a base "model". Only Freeza himself can answer these questions specifically but his actions make it apparent that he didn't believe managing his natural form was worth his time. And really, as I persist, nothing changes from these answers anyway.

No the reason why we've reached an impasse, is because freeza outright also outright states that he loses control in the higher forms, similar to the super Saiyan forms, King Cold never ascends to a higher form, even when it would make sense in the narrative, Chilled never transforms even when it would make sense in the narritive.
Clearly the idea that they are suppression forms just doesn't add up to what we've seen

By the way, you're aware that Kanzenshuu, the website, is run by four, wonderful individuals, right? I'm sure you flatter them with your impressions but their manga guide is something they wrote. It's not official material, if you thought that.

Yeah I do consider them to be pretty trustworthy

[Nejishiki]

Regarding your new comment, Vegeta describes Super Saiyan as a myth, a "stupid tradition". In context, he knows nothing about it. Once Super Saiyan is established, it's explained as requiring a tranquil heart & intense rage. (Supporting theories like to add that Saiyans must grow strong enough to invalidate the assistance their tails provide, too.) Freeza adds that despite Vegeta's anger, his heart wasn't tranquil. When Vegeta reached Super Saiyan, his heart became tranquil once he accepted his limitations & concluded he couldn't reach Kakarotto's status. From there, outrageous rage was born against himself simultaneously. In short, the vague & dismissed legend was corrected by future events. The "rules" attributed to the legend were proven false & Super Saiyan's discovered requirements have not altered since.

To review, I've addressed appearances, possible suppressed design theories, standards of control, Freeza's account never changing, Cold's (& Chilled, as later included) lack of evolution, supporting evidence that only Freeza morphs, & precedence of characters' transformation habits. I've no reason to repeat these thoughts considering new points weren't born from my previous posts.

He definitely would've done that but I'm really curious what he'd do power wise with it since he established Goku and Vegeta as not being too far off from Beerus as of F. I suspect that might be why in U6 and retroactively in the retellings, Beerus is constantly way, way, way above them while BoG & F have him relatively close to Goku & Vegeta.

I think I had an idea that Hit would be the main antagonist with stronger time breaking abilities. Vados deliberately hiring an infamous criminal would have more attention. Botamo, Frost, Magetta, & Cabba would be cut or composited as new characters with alternate roles & the narrative would focus on the godly theme Battle of Gods established. In other words, the tournament would become bigger than it was in the Super adaptions, if Toriyama includes it anyway. I imagine Beerus & Champa would allow everyone to resolve issue themselves for their amusement. Once Hit is defeated, Champa declaring them all useless in his presence no matter who won would still occur. Zeno gets involved right after that scene. Perhaps Hit is properly taken care of since he's blatantly abusing time in front of everyone (I'm including GodTube here though it would be a brief reference)? To cap the movie off, let's say Goku & Vegeta grew from their Resurrection F 7 to a Champa's Tournament 8 & mull over the fact that they'll have to eventually deal with the Hakaishin because they're getting too chaotic.

[Gog]

Regarding your new comment, Vegeta describes Super Saiyan as a myth, a "stupid tradition". In context, he knows nothing about it. Once Super Saiyan is established, it's explained as requiring a tranquil heart & intense rage. (Supporting theories like to add that Saiyans must grow strong enough to invalidate the assistance their tails provide, too.) Freeza adds that despite Vegeta's anger, his heart wasn't tranquil. When Vegeta reached Super Saiyan, his heart became tranquil once he accepted his limitations & concluded he couldn't reach Kakarotto's status. From there, outrageous rage was born against himself simultaneously. In short, the vague & dismissed legend was corrected by future events. The "rules" attributed to the legend were proven false & Super Saiyan's discovered requirements have not altered since.

At this point in time where just going in circles, agree to disagree, because were never going to agree on this? But before I go I have to congratulate you on your well written thoughtful replies , I even bumped up one of my replies to the point where it took me an entire afternoon to write it, now that is what I'd call progress.

Nejishiki, I had fun arguing with you on Freeza and his forms, and it has been a ride, I hope you go on your day with a smile

Thank you for the good time!

[Nejishiki]

Sure thing, Gog!

Not too long ago, Resurrection F aired on television with new footage. The first set retold events from the original story. However, the second set of footage covered why Future Trunks took one year to gather time machine fuel. While not a necessary detail, it does shine a light on the complications Future Trunks faced to quickly escape to the alternate present sooner. He was required to Fight It Out, hide & survive, and gather supplies, which Goku Black made extremely difficult with his destruction of resources. My question: Which continuity is this footage tailored for? Does it support the Dragon Ball Super anime? It's obviously advertising the Future Trunks arc. Or should we consider it a natural extension to Toriyama's film continuity? In general, it's an odd thought I had in regard to where we're supposed to fit this piece of history, assuming we're expected to.

[kinisking]

Just got around to watching the dub:
Was Videl saying Gohan would be arm candy in the sub?
Goten's voice now fits his look I guess.
Trunk's voice is really well done.
I forgot there was no Vegeta in this episode.
I forgot how much I loved the first ending.

[Gog]

Quick question;

Why is Oolong only capable of transforming for a few minutes? I genially don't know why, and feel like i should know why he's incapable

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Quick question;

Why is Oolong only capable of transforming for a few minutes? I genially don't know why, and feel like i should know why he's incapable

He was kicked out of Transformation Kindergarten early for stealing his teacher's panties.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

GameGrumps' "review" of Dragon Ball GT: Final Bout "gives me cancer", so to speak, a little bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg_eu0n ... freload=10

I suppose I expect too much of them in an area that they may not be particularly involved in or informed of, but them criticizing the English dub (or as they say, "the voice acting") for "ew, silly voices"...when, for a very long time, these were the only English VAs of DB cast with the actual characterizations & portrayals in mind. Dan Woren's Piccolo is (aside from McNeil in some of the Pioneer dubs) the closest thing we've gotten to Toshio Furukawa, Milton James carries that haughty, regal attitude of Vegeta much better than the dub voices of the time, & Kevin Seymour (while not great acting here) the only male Freeza English VA for over a decade until recently-ish. GameGrumps actually scoffed that "lol, it's supposed to be a girl voice", which really is what got me.

I know they're just referencing what they know, I guess I just sort of expected them to know better.

[Freeza9000]

Pretty much the closest thing to a SSJ4 ever making an appearance in Super. 

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Dbzfan94]

GameGrumps' "review" of Dragon Ball GT: Final Bout "gives me cancer", so to speak, a little bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg_eu0n ... freload=10

I suppose I expect too much of them in an area that they may not be particularly involved in or informed of, but them criticizing the English dub (or as they say, "the voice acting") for "ew, silly voices"...when, for a very long time, these were the only English VAs of DB cast with the actual characterizations & portrayals in mind. Dan Woren's Piccolo is (aside from McNeil in some of the Pioneer dubs) the closest thing we've gotten to Toshio Furukawa, Milton James carries that haughty, regal attitude of Vegeta much better than the dub voices of the time, & Kevin Seymour (while not great acting here) the only male Freeza English VA for over a decade until recently-ish. GameGrumps actually scoffed that "lol, it's supposed to be a girl voice", which really is what got me.

I know they're just referencing what they know, I guess I just sort of expected them to know better.

Never before did I actually see praise for the Final Bout

[Sailor Haumea]

Maybe I'll get an avatar...

Someday.

That day is today.

[Gog]

Pretty much the closest thing to a SSJ4 ever making an appearance in Super. 

[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]

And Good riddance is all that'll say to that

[8000 Saiyan]

GameGrumps' "review" of Dragon Ball GT: Final Bout "gives me cancer", so to speak, a little bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg_eu0n ... freload=10

I suppose I expect too much of them in an area that they may not be particularly involved in or informed of, but them criticizing the English dub (or as they say, "the voice acting") for "ew, silly voices"...when, for a very long time, these were the only English VAs of DB cast with the actual characterizations & portrayals in mind. Dan Woren's Piccolo is (aside from McNeil in some of the Pioneer dubs) the closest thing we've gotten to Toshio Furukawa, Milton James carries that haughty, regal attitude of Vegeta much better than the dub voices of the time, & Kevin Seymour (while not great acting here) the only male Freeza English VA for over a decade until recently-ish. GameGrumps actually scoffed that "lol, it's supposed to be a girl voice", which really is what got me.

I know they're just referencing what they know, I guess I just sort of expected them to know better.

I don't see how Woren and James sound closer to the Japanese. Woren just does a Scott McNeil impression, while James sounds too old and not smooth. As far as I'm concerned, Horikawa and Furukawa don't sound nothing like that in the Japanese version.

[Anime Kitten]

That day is today.

Yaaaay!

... but who is it?

[ekrolo2]

And Good riddance is all that'll say to that

I'd gladly take 4 over either of the God forms and their convoluted "mechanics".