Dragonball franchise is getting too complicated for its own good

[precita]

It used to be rather simple. There was the original manga by Toriyama which people saw as the "holy gospel."

Then the anime which went from Dragonball, to DBZ, to GT. Then there were the various movies and specials.

Now there's all that in the past, plus Kai, plus the alternate stories from Xenoverse, Heroes and Dragonball Online, plus Movies 14 and 15, then the Super re-tellings of those movies, then Super itself, and then the manga version of Super which has slightly different story elements.

The Dragonball franchise is getting too complicated for its own good. I can't imagine a newcomer getting into the franchise for the first time making sense of it all or knowing where to start.

[Gog]

Precita, there is a way to make this all make sense, different time lines. OR if you don't like that, another reason there is no canon, also besides its all easy to get into, your making a big deal out of nothing.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

"Different timelines" had never made something confusing simpler. Nor made non linear stoytelling linear.
Fortunantly, Dragonball is still easy to follow: manga/Dbz/kai -> Super/Gt. And everything else is standalone.

[Kunzait_83]

plus Kai, plus the alternate stories from Xenoverse, Heroes and Dragonball Online

To be fair here, Kai really isn't anything that's actually NEW. Its just a poorly edited, haphazardly re-scored, and censored version of DBZ. Basically its just the original Saban-produced FUNimation dub of DBZ from way back, but made by Toei this time and featuring the original Japanese cast (phoning it in). Honestly I have no idea why so many fans treat Kai as this massively big deal and focal point of interest when its just... such an empty void of anything that's genuinely new or worth caring about. I suppose it has to be for the FUNi dub of it being not quite as horrific as it usually is or something, but I'm equally as baffled as to why anyone at this point even gives a shit about the FUNimation cast and their "redemption". Its been decades, and its far too little too late (and some of them STILL suck even all these years afterward).

As for Xenoverse, Heroes, and Online... I mean, its just video games. We've had those forever. I suppose for Dragon Ball its unique to have games with their own original stories rather than re-enactments of the original manga/anime. But Xenoverse and Heroes are just the worst and most obviously worthless kind of schlock garbage (the people who are genuinely invested in them as if they're on the same level of quality as the original series are as mystifying to me as those who make a big deal out of Kai), while Online at least has some kinda halfway interesting ideas straight from Toriyama's noggin. But the game had to be an MMO, one which is now dead, so the whole point is rendered soundly moot and the DB Online "story" is just an amorphous vapor of ideas and concepts without any real accompanying media in which to deliver them. So its all fairly pointless.

When all's said and done, Super is really the only genuinely "new" piece of Dragon Ball we've gotten since GT ended in '97. And its fitting that I mention GT, because that's mostly what Super amounts to: an alternate take on a GT-esque continuation of the original manga, this time with Toriyama involved in an only VERY MILDLY bigger capacity. And with a manga of its own (that once again Toriyama is fairly hands off on).

People still just don't want to admit it but Dragon Ball is basically still over. None of this crap from the last bunch of years really amounts to anything all that noteworthy or significant. Toriyama's effectively retired and is simply never going to produce a series on his own full throttle anymore (and even if he did, if DB Minus is any indication of where his heads at these days, we very well might've wished he stayed retired and the series stayed dormant). Which is more than fine since the dude was a fucking machine back in the day and has beyond earned his retirement, and no one here should feel the least bit entitled to squeezing a few last drops of juice out of the guy.

Not only does no one want to admit that its all basically still over and that none of this stuff amounts to a genuine/proper return of Dragon Ball - which between Toriyama's current status and the general zeitgeist in 80s/90s Wuxia media that went into giving DB that spark that made it what it was being something that's long since been over and done with, is something that I don't think is ever going to be really possible to get back ever again - but further no one wants to realize or own up to the fact that Dragon Ball was hardly some Firefly-esque "cut down before its prime" tragic scenario. There's so. Very. Much. Goddamned material. That its churned out that a person can spend EONS sifting through. If you're someone in 2017 who feels genuinely starved for Dragon Ball content, you need to seek a drug or addiction counselor of some kind, because you clearly have a problem.

[Kamiccolo9]

This "too complicated" stuff seems to me the same bullshit that ancient comic book chiefs spew out whenever sales drop and they decide to go for another reboot. "What? The 90's comic book crash simply couldn't have been caused by a spectator bubble and shitty comic books. It simply must be that kids are too stupid to follow long-running comic books! Let's make an entirely new line that is ostensibly for the kids but super edgy and violent and will inevitably be folded back into the main line in a decade anyway!"

Dragon Ball is not that hard to follow and kids aren't stupid.

[TheGreatness25]

The only thing "complicated" about it is when you're trying to pick out what's canon and what's not. I think that Super is a conscious effort to do away with the series' canon because canon chains them up. There's nothing complicated about it: watch it, read it, play it, enjoy it. If you have questions, read the official interviews, etc. I think that since the writers (Toriyama and Toei) themselves have done away with any mold that guided them, then we have no choice but to follow suit.

[floofychan333]

No video game alternate scenarios are canon.

[precita]

, but I'm equally as baffled as to why anyone at this point even gives a shit about the FUNimation cast and their "redemption". Its been decades, and its far too little too late (and some of them STILL suck even all these years afterward).

People still just don't want to admit it but Dragon Ball is basically still over. None of this crap from the last bunch of years really amounts to anything all that noteworthy or significant. Toriyama's effectively retired and is simply never going to produce a series on his own full throttle anymore (and even if he did, if DB Minus is any indication of where his heads at these days, we very well might've wished he stayed retired and the series stayed dormant). Which is more than fine since the dude was a fucking machine back in the day and has beyond earned his retirement, and no one here should feel the least bit entitled to squeezing a few last drops of juice out of the guy.

If you're someone in 2017 who feels genuinely starved for Dragon Ball content, you need to seek a drug or addiction counselor of some kind, because you clearly have a problem.

What's with these bizarre and arrogant comments? If people want to enjoy new Dragonball material, and see it as a legit continuation of what came before, that's fine. Dragonball isn't over if its getting new material. If you don't like it you can pretend it doesn't exist, but for the rest of the fandom that's not the case.

I'm not even going to touch your FUNI dub comment, even though you're pretty much wrong there too, but whatever.

[Kunzait_83]

I'm not even going to touch your FUNI dub comment, even though you're pretty much wrong there too, but whatever.

Right, because as we all know, Sean Schemmel's Kaio has improved WONDERFULLY over the intervening years.

Worth noting I said SOME of them still suck all these years later. Others have obviously improved (and a few recast entirely, to much better effect), but my point is at this point in the 2010s how is it that anyone can still be bothered to give a shit anymore? Enough to get invested in yet another "reversioning" of the original series (this one done by Toei). I don't get it, but that's just like, my OPINION man. Obviously. They don't all have to be sugar coated up the yin yang and made pleasant.

Heh, and here I was recently considering making a new thread about the whole One Piece & Dragon Ball pairing. If you think that little nothing of a post was acidic, you have no idea what I actually sound like when I rip into something seriously.

[sintzu]

It's actually really easy to follow, especially compared to comic books.

DB is the 1st anime and it has 4 movies that just retell its events.
Z is the 2nd anime and it has 15 movies, 3 OVAs & 2 TV specials, each set during certain parts of Z.
Kai is just a director's cut of Z.
Super is the 3rd anime that's 1st 2 arcs retell Z's last 2 movies while everything afterwards is new.
GT is the 4th anime and it has 1 TV special.

[Hellspawn28]

Xenoverse, Online and Heroes are spin off titles. You can take them or leave them. Simple as that.

[PelicanDynasty]

Not to mention Goku's Traffic Safety. Where does THAT fit into the canon?

In seriousness, I don't really see how this is complicated. The "holy gospel" as you describe it paired with the Super Anime gives you all the story you need to know to "get in to the franchise."

[Cetra]

I don't think it is getting complicated at all. If anything I am glad it is not as shallow as it used to be.

[Kunzait_83]

Not to mention Goku's Traffic Safety. Where does THAT fit into the canon?

We also neglected to mention the JSAT special. Probably cause we all forgot it was even a thing (which is pretty damn easy to do, that special is just the most inconsequential fluff ever).

In seriousness, I don't really see how this is complicated. The "holy gospel" as you describe it paired with the Super Anime gives you all the story you need to know to "get in to the franchise."

If you're just going by the manga alone for the original series, wouldn't pairing it up with the Super manga make more sense?

[PelicanDynasty]

In seriousness, I don't really see how this is complicated. The "holy gospel" as you describe it paired with the Super Anime gives you all the story you need to know to "get in to the franchise."

If you're just going by the manga alone for the original series, wouldn't pairing it up with the Super manga make more sense?

Possibly. I haven't really watched/read Super yet (barring the new movies), but my understanding is that the anime is more fleshed out, so that's what I used.

[Marugoto]

The few times people asked me about Dragon ball, I just guided them to the manga. One title. 42 volumes that's it. Simple and clean. And if they don't want to read comics but watch it instead, I'll tell them that "Dragon Ball" and "Dragon ball Z" are the two shows that adapt the 42 issues in its entirety. All the other stuff is just complementary material that might be worth checking out if they actually like the main stuff.

Or, if someone asks me to watch something with them that I would dig the most. In that case I'll just toss in DBZ movie 3. That always gets good results.

As for children who first get exposed to DB through any of the newer stuff and they actually like it and wanna get into it more, well they have the Internet at their disposal. The franchise hasn't reached Gundam levels of head scratching for newcomers yet. Though it might someday, if Toei keeps pushing out more and more half assed shows.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It's not really that complicated at all. In fact, the most complicated part of the series is talking about it afterwards. Viewing the manga, anime, movies, games, etc. is as simple and smooth as it always has been.

Of course, when you get into canon, things get a little weird, but most people can figure out for themselves "Huh, this doesn't really fit anywhere" or "Huh, A seems to contradict B", or even "Huh, this is just a soulless, boring retread of a series I already watched" and move on without an aneurysm.

[nickzambuto]

Which is more than fine since the dude was a fucking machine back in the day and has beyond earned his retirement

Why do you say that Toriyama was a machine? I know that Dragon Ball itself is extraordinarily long and even Dr. Slump was quite lengthy, but I've often heard that Toriyama is actually quite lazy and would always take the easy route, like making the characters fight in barren wastelands, turning Goku's hair gold so it wouldn't need inking in, few night time scenes so not as much inking, and of course the fact that he made it all up as he went along with little forethought. I'm not attacking you or anything, I'm just curious for your insight here.

[DragonBallFoodie]

I think I could say that only for the time-travelling scenarios.

I almost gave up on DBS because of the multiple timeline stuff, it got too complex for me to understand it.

[UltimateHammerBro]

I don't think it's complicated at all for a newcomer.

Someone with no previous knowledge of the story has several points to jump in: the manga, the DB anime, the DBZ anime (not my best idea, but the English dub proves it's possible: combining it with a quick recap by someone who knows the story makes it better) or DBZ Kai (which includes the aforementioned recap). Any of these provides a more or less straightforward story, and expanding it afterwards is up to them. Neither Super nor GT are good places to start, but I don't see any problem with it.

Just to make an analogy: Marvel and DC have been around for decades, and the stories have become so convoluted that even some of the writers can't make sense of them, yet they manage to create sagas which can function as starting points every couple of years. For instance, if you want to read Spider-Man, there are several points you can start from: the original comics in the 1960s ("the manga"), the revamp near the turn of the century ("DBZ"), the Ultimate version ("Kai")... and GT and Super would be akin to jumping in the middle of the mess the 1990s were