DB/Fiction's Handling of Diversity

[sintzu]

C'mon, y'all, I expect a better global understanding from our actual global folks!

I'm not saying they don't have any issues cause every country does but countries like Japan don't have the same issues that America has.

[Basaku]

You might take what I said as just a piece of information and a harmless opinion while another person might say I'm racist.

Why would anyone say it? You stated a fact, when it comes to race, Japan is basically a homogeneous country. Now obviously, how Japan views & portrays other races is a whoooole different discussion to have, as well as other aspects of Japanese society & culture like conformism, gay rights, attitudes towards women's role in society etc. Just so it's clear we're not talking about asian equivalent of Scandinavian "liberal utopia" where diversity issues trully become thing of a past as some try to portray. Of course as with any country, there are countless individuals with different views and personal beliefs. Around the same time as Toriyama was drawing his globally-succesful DB manga, Naoko Takeuchi was drawing equally succesfull Sailor Moon with a much wider variety among its primary cast and a quite different outlook on many social aspects than what would be generally accepeted as majority view in Japan at the time. Nonetheless, it is simply unture to say Japan is free of any diversity issues just because there are next to none white/black people in the society.

[Doctor.]

Around the same time as Toriyama was drawing his globally-succesful DB manga, Naoko Takeuchi was drawing equally succesfull Sailor Moon with a much wider variety among its primary cast and a quite different outlook on many social aspects than what would be generally accepeted as majority view in Japan at the time.

Sailor Moon is targetted towards young girls, Dragon Ball is targetted towards young boys. I don't see what diversity has anything to do with anything whatsoever when you have a clear target demographic in mind you want to appeal to.

[sintzu]

Why would anyone say it? You stated a fact.

It is simply unture to say Japan is free of any diversity issues just because there are next to none white/black people in the society.

I know but you never know, people are called all kinds of things when they disagree with certain people. if you say you don't care about how Women are written in pop culture then you could be called a women hater even if you're not.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that the issues we have in the West don't apply everywhere in the world. in the West people are always talking about how women are represented in games and movies (for example) but maybe in Japan that's not an issue.

[Draconic]

Just so we're clear my statement was reffering to diversity in media/pop culture, not at the whole political landscape, as I think should be obvious from the context of the rest of my post. If I didn't make myself clear I apologize. Of course when looking at our recent history and present context those problems still exist. But the topic was diversity in DB and fiction, so within those lines, I do believe my opinions hold true at least in some regards and are nowhere near close to being "harmful".

And that's the last of it, since it's not only off-topic, but it's also not really going to go anywhere even if it wasn't.

[Basaku]

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that the issues we have in the West don't apply everywhere in the world.

Some do, some don't, some in different form. Portrayal of women in popular media as well as women's role in society definitely shares commong points though, the reactions may be different. West is talking about it now (wasn't really few decades ago), while Japan aint much with conformism culture & issues playing a major part.

Sailor Moon is targetted towards young girls, Dragon Ball is targetted towards young boys. I don't see what diversity has anything to do with anything whatsoever when you have a clear target demographic in mind you want to appeal to.

#1. Despite target audiences both franchises achieved global cross-over success, obviously not 50/50 audience breakdown but a sizeable one propping both to mainstream status thanks to it. #2. For example, around 1995 the homosexuality in Japan is not prosecuted, especially based on religious grounds like in many Western countries, but it's also not talked about openly really and with the conformism culture most LGBT people live in the closet fully or partially, market for LGBT art exists, but is not part of the mainstream in any way. In the West, gay rights are still in early stages of progress, no country allows same-sex marriage, LGBT characters are not mainstream etc. Around that year:

- Takeuchi adds lesbian couple to the primary cast in her globally-succesful Sailor Moon franchise, uses their queernes both as a serious & legitimate aspect of their relationship and in the occasional jokes/punchlines
- Toriyama adds Otokosuki, already-dated leather-daddy punchline to the finale of his globally-succesful Dragon Ball manga, no serious LGBT characters anywhere in sight

Spot the difference.

[Doctor.]

- Toriyama adds Otokosuki, already-dated leather-daddy punchline to the finale of his globally-succesful Dragon Ball manga, no serious LGBT characters anywhere in sight

Spot the difference.

Sure, it's not exactly progressive, but not everything needs to be, it was a clear joke. Are you saying Toriyama did something bad?

[rereboy]

That's just stereotypical humor, not malice. Humor always makes fun of something, and when it's about stereotypes it can be be about stereotypes of all sorts (countries, movies, gender, orientation, etc). Toriyama wasn't trying to have any kind of message or statement, he was just using a bit of humor.

People shouldn't be "blamed" for humor and they also shouldn't be blamed just because they aren't pushing the ideas and political statements that we like to see.

[Basaku]

Sure, it's not exactly progressive, but not everything needs to be, it was a clear joke. Are you saying Toriyama did something bad?

That's just stereotypical humor, not malice. Humor always makes fun of something, and when it's about stereotypes it can be be about stereotypes of all sorts (countries, movies, gender, orientation, etc). Toriyama wasn't trying to have any kind of message or statement, he was just using a bit of humor.

People shouldn't be "blamed" for humor and they also shouldn't be blamed just because they aren't pushing the ideas and political statements that we like to see.

Joke, humor? You tell me. If someone uses LGBT characters exclusively as an idiotic punchline, is that still totally just a humor or is that actually malice, disregard or close-mindeness at best? There's no need to wonder about it when it comes to Takeuchi. She had "gay jokes" next to legitimate full-fledged LGBT characters in primary cast. There's no doubt about her pure intentions. Just like there's little doubt about Toriyama's views on women. While they haven't been the biggest part of DB, especially in fighting roles, they have integral part of the franchise from the start next to all the cheap sexist jokes. When it comes to LGBT characters/characteristics though, there were ONLY the punchlines. So yeah, why are you surprised it's question?

That or the next time someone writes lesbian-focused story in which straight guys are used neanderthal as idiotic neaderthal punchlines without a single normal male character you will be rolling on the floor laughing out lout and praising the author for fantastic humor free of any agenda.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Joke, humor? You tell me. If someone uses LGBT characters exclusively as an idiotic punchline, is that still totally just a humor or is that actually malice...

Why so hypothetical? If there's an actual problem with this, give examples. Even if it is malice, people have every right to be malicious. Unless it's for the sole purpose of forcing everyone else to pretend that negativity and hostility don't exist, the entire concern is moot.

That's pretty much why the entire discussion is dumb, by the way. Where do some of you get off judging when something's diverse enough? Unless it's your story, it's none of your business.

[Doctor.]

Joke, humor? You tell me.

Yes, it's abundantly clear that it's supposed to be a joke.

If someone uses LGBT characters exclusively as an idiotic punchline, is that still totally just a humor or is that actually malice, disregard or close-mindeness at best?

If you believe Toriyama's intent is malicious, then why do you follow the series? The series is a representation of Toriyama's mind. Not only is he allowed to portray anyone the way he wants, he's not forced to change his viewpoint on whatever the subject. Are you expecting Toriyama, and thus the series, to change to accomodate your needs? That won't happen, especially not with someone like Toriyama.

That or the next time someone writes lesbian-focused story in which straight guys are used neanderthal as idiotic neaderthal punchlines without a single normal male character you will be rolling on the floor laughing out lout and praising the author for fantastic humor free of any agenda.

Making awfully big assumptions on what I may find offensive and what I may find funny right here. Also making an assumption in regards to my sexual orientation, as this is one of those "You're straight so you don't know what it's like" type of arguments, when you don't have sufficient information to assert whether or not I'm straight.

[rereboy]

is that still totally just a humor

Yes. It's pretty clear that there's no real, actual, political statement regarding sexual orientation in that, just stereotypical humor. Arguing that there is such a statement is straining what is there beyond the breaking point.

[Gog]

People shouldn't be "blamed" for humor and they also shouldn't be blamed just because they aren't pushing the ideas and political statements that we like to see.

Joke, humor? You tell me. If someone uses LGBT characters exclusively as an idiotic punchline, is that still totally just a humor or is that actually malice, disregard or close-mindeness at best? [/quote]

Ah, off to a good start then, people shouldn't be blamed for there humour, so you won't mind if I crack a joke then? The Nazi's were the best shower company back in the day, their showers were to die for Eh, whatever. Then the man making the joke, just likes to make fun of LGBT characters. It's a type of humor. It's called making fun of something

There's no need to wonder about it when it comes to Takeuchi. She had "gay jokes" next to legitimate full-fledged LGBT characters in primary cast. There's no doubt about her pure intentions.

Gna? Takeuchi? Don't know what that is. Perhaps the author has a burning hatred for LGBT characters, and ought out to make fun of them.

Just like there's little doubt about Toriyama's views on women. While they haven't been the biggest part of DB, especially in fighting roles, they have integral part of the franchise from the start next to all the cheap sexist jokes.

Yes, he treats the cast of women well, and mocks them just as equally as the males, true equality at it's finest. Seriously? Cheap sexist jokes? Do you mean Bulma, and ChiChi, two of the most important characters in the show?

When it comes to LGBT characters/characteristics though, there were ONLY the punchlines. So yeah, why are you surprised it's question?

You mean Whis? One of the most powerful characters in the show? Also if you watch Dragon Ball Z abridged you'll notice that there's a lot of gay jokes. Even though the main writer is gay.

That or the next time someone writes lesbian-focused story in which straight guys are used neanderthal as idiotic neaderthal punchlines without a single normal male character you will be rolling on the floor laughing out lout and praising the author for fantastic humor free of any agenda.

It'll be irritating, but not offensive

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

For dragonball, the problems it has is that Toriyama just never gives equal relevance to any female characters in the catalog he has. Its true that most characters, female or namekian don't get to do pretty much anything as much as what overreach a Saiyan gets to do, even if they get out-of-no-where transformations to compensate their need for the center screen time. Though the only real social gripe I do have is the fact that Videl, Chi Chi & 18 were reduced to just off-screen house-wives because its boring to see even outside of gendered criticism standards. The argument that its natural or realistic for them bothers me because this show is farthest from realistic. There is no real reason why Videl or 18 have to do nothing now or couldn't be written to still fight. I mean 18 doesn't even age. I really don't get why in this series they are limited to that. Even in universe. I mean first of all, kids in this series are never going to really grow up anyway if they aren't plot essential so you basically have this reverse-baby trap set on the female characters that Toriyama does have.

As for the cast of the show, its hard to set it to the same standards of what a diverse one would look like considering it doesn't reflect a realistic society. There pretty much all "humans/earthlings" on Earth so I guess thats pretty inclusive for Toriyama there, even if that was unintentional seeing as the characters are more so divided by their planets, realms, or governing astral status as opposed to actual social existence. Though the humans are very cartoony, its pretty hard to really guess what characters are supposed to ethnically be, beyond the obvious blonde ones but then in Anime they're still just seen as blonde Japanese people too, like Rainbow Mika.

[MrWalnut4]

It's just repackaging older characters so SJW's and the writers can pat themselves on the back.

This is rhetoric that I challenge you to back up.

I have yet to see people actually trot out "SJW" in a non-ironic fashion and ultimately make a point worth considering.

Then let me make some semblance of a defense of his position. First, who is it that asks for the types of things he stated? It isn't the people who have enjoyed comics since they were kids and built them into the pop icons they are now. It is the people who have appropriated that culture as their own in order to change it to suit their agenda rather than enjoy it for what it is. It is people who often times don't read them that make these requests of writers. And the connection between all these people is political ideology. It's not as crudely simple as, "These darn SJW's are ruining my comic books!" but it is not inaccurate.

There is a culture in art currently that praises certain ideals and vehemently denounces those who violate them. There is much backslapping and praising when those ideals are met, but the second you step out of line all hell breaks loose. Just look at what happened to Joss Whedon with the Black Widow controversy (since Marvel was an example brought up). And again, this culture derives from political ideology.

If diversity occurs as a natural progression of an art form then that is fine and commendable. The problem is when a mob of politicized people with undue authority dictate the bounds of your expression and punish you for breaking them. I don't want any kind of art to become a watered down form of virtue signaling (I hate that phrase but it is correctly applicable) to satiate a groups politics. I don't think this is something worth dismissing simply because "SJW" gets brought up as a pejorative label.

Edit: Didn't realize this had already been addressed later in this thread but I'll leave it here as I think it is still a point worth considering.

[swimtrunks]

If you're an SJW, and you're disturbed that too many straight, white males aren't being inclusive enough, tough shit.

Funny you tell them tough shit white males don't have to be inclusive but then you all make fun of sjw's for wanting to create "safe spaces."

Joke, humor? You tell me. If someone uses LGBT characters exclusively as an idiotic punchline, is that still totally just a humor or is that actually malice...

Even if it is malice, people have every right to be malicious.

Which is why minorities want "safe spaces." You all use the term "safe space" like it's an insult. The majority of the comments in this thread are why. As if there's some rule that says minorities have to argue with you day in and day out for why they have a right to exist.

Two people from opposite sides of the spectrum can be vocal and "nag" and they will benefit from this enhanced visibility in pretty much the same way.

Exactly^ Hence all of the youtubers who do nothing but whine about sjw's, have tons of views and subscribers. But no no, America is turning into a dictatorship because sjw feminists got DC comics to make Wonder Woman go down a breast size.

[Gog]

Funny you tell them tough shit white males don't have to be inclusive but then you all make fun of sjw's for wanting to create "safe spaces."

You mean the same social justice warrior's who created the 2017 Resolutions For White White Guy's, I know theres some good SJW'S but the bad ones just crowd the rest out.

Which is why minorities want "safe spaces." You all use the term "safe space" like it's an insult. The majority of the comments in this thread are why. As if there's some rule that says minorities have to argue with you day in and day out for why they have a right to exist.

Huh? How did this spawn from Dragon Ball? Actually this thread isn't really related to dragon ball anymore.

Exactly^ Hence all of the youtubers who do nothing but whine about sjw's, have tons of views and subscribers. But no no, America is turning into a dictatorship because sjw feminists got DC comics to make Wonder Woman go down a breast size.

What you tuber's? Pewdiepie? The man who makes fun of everything? People in the marvel community dislike SJW Feminists for basically ruining Thor, and a whole slew of other characters.

Honestly I wish we were all like Freeza, powerful, long lived, equal, and racist, and mean to every race but ours.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Which is why minorities want "safe spaces." You all use the term "safe space" like it's an insult. The majority of the comments in this thread are why. As if there's some rule that says minorities have to argue with you day in and day out for why they have a right to exist.

What are you even talking about? You're talking as if minorities are victims, as if the world wants them gone. That's not the case, the amount of racists, LGBT-phobes, etc. is so miniscule that it's not worth basing anything on. I don't even care, people can rely on safe spaces if they want, it just means that they're paranoid, cowardly, and socially dysfunctional.

Not sure why you brought up any of this in response to me, though. It has nothing to do with anything. It seems more like you're trying to start trouble.

[Doctor.]

[

Which is why minorities want "safe spaces."

You don't speak on behalf of everyone.

"Safe spaces" are a fundamentally flawed idea, because they bring about more segregation, the exact thing minorities have always tried to combat.

[Cipher]

That's not the case, the amount of racists, LGBT-phobes, etc. is so miniscule that it's not worth basing anything on.

Sorry; have you been watching, like, America and Britain at all since the second half of 2016?

That's an alternative fact.

Anyway, I agree that Dragon Ball is better than its contemporaries in a few ways; with women characters in particular (Super has only recently begun to live up to the standards set by the original run of the series). It could always do better in terms of LGBT characters, as Otokosuki was a nadir (Blue in the manga is mostly fine, given the era); that Sailor Moon comparison was spot-on. I don't necessarily expect Toriyama to even think to include a positive portrayal, as doing so is still a relatively radical political statement for a popular kids' franchise in Japan; but it'd be awesome to see one.

Also, people in this thread be like, "Why do punchline stereotypes in fiction matter?" As if popular fiction doesn't frame the way we view the world. For a bunch of people with cumulative millions of posts on a message board about a single comic series, people sure radically underestimate the weight popular media has.