Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

I didn't say that he was strong as U7 strongest KaioShin. In the manga he spared against Kibito and pulled an easy victory but Kibito managed to through some blows at him. Again in the manga Zamasu was impressed that Shin and Kibito defeated Majin Boo until he found out that they didn't. When Kibito said that a mortal defeated Boo he took at as a joke. That's heavily implication that Zamasu(Present) is in fact weaker than Boo or at the same level at least.

The people in the manga are weaker than their anime counterparts like Hit.

[Bullza]

Right, right, so SS2 Goku is now above SSGod Goku though ... because he absorbed the SSGod power though?

Right. Goku in his Base form would be as strong as Super Saiyan God but upon transforming further he was still described as being tens of times stronger which would mean that Trunks as well as say Cabba, Magetta and possibly Frost and Zamasu would also be tens of times stronger than Super Saiyan God and that's really farfetched.

Unless it really is like in the manga where Super Saiyan 3 Goku is still inferior to Super Saiyan God making all those characters weaker than Super Saiyan God.

This is where the confusion comes into it.

There is no evidence that Goku could 'only' block given how he caught Trunks' fists with no fanfare. At this point, you're overshooting Trunks.

I'm just taking the scene as it was shown. He was able to push Goku back and didn't give him a chance to get an attack in while his arms shook under the pressure of Trunks'. Nobody said Goku was holding back but we do know that Trunks was holding back.

This is similar to the manga where Trunks fights Goku before powering up even further. The intention is clearly meant to me that Trunks is comparable to at least one of Goku's Super Saiyan forms.

Both Trunks and Goku said he lowered his guard because he became dependent on his immortality

Yeah like when he fought Goku and then in the middle of the fight stood there and looked away and started having a conversation with himself leaving himself open to be punched, hence he let his guard down.

What isn't letting his guard down is when he attacked Trunks who then stopped his attack and proceeded to pummel him and dodge Zamasu's attacks.

Future Zamasu who pushed back and traded blows with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

And Super Saiyan 2 Trunks did the exact same and got in the same amount of attacks in on Super Saiyan Rose Black but you'll conveniently write that off by saying that he too was off guard when he also obviously wasn't.

In all the fights Zamasu had with Goku, Vegeta and Trunks he got in like one or two attacks and that's it.

[Hugo Boss]

Actually, the fact that Goku used SS3, and Trunks didn't use his full power until then, implies SS2 Trunks is probably stronger than SS2 Goku. When Trunks used his full power the containment barrier Bulma constructed didn't resist, so it was a fairly high increase. Also, it was implied Black didn't fight Goku to his limit in their first bout and he had been using more power when fighting Trunks in the future.

Goku transformed to show off if you looked at the scene. He literally too no damaged blocking Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.

We know that Black didn't fight all out since Trunks said he was on par or stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. At the same time, Black wouldn't be so impressed by Goku if he was only as strong as Trunks, who he beat up for over a year. We also saw in a flashback Super Saiyan 2 Trunks get smash when he first met Black.

Showing off a greater level of power just for the sake of show off is not in-character for Goku. He is the kind that usually holds back. It's very clear Trunks is no match for SS3, but SS2 is a different matter. However you see their little skirmish, the power Trunks was hiding was revealed without a transformation. If Goku was able to block Trunks' strongest attack with just SS2 he would probably do it.

If Black could beat SS3 it seems he was playing around with SS2 Goku, no matter what kind of compliment he gives to him. Perhaps he was more interested in learning from Goku's fighting style and assimilate it to his body.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Does anyone find it odd that Cabba could get SO strong to above SSGod Goku without the Super Saiyan form? Wouldn't he have to train with Vados or someone?

Wouldn't he have to be below SSGod Goku?

[Freeza9000]

Does anyone find it odd that Cabba could get SO strong to above SSGod Goku without the Super Saiyan form? Wouldn't he have to train with Vados or someone?

Wouldn't he have to be below SSGod Goku?

Freeza was born with one of the most highest potential in the franchise and even reaching god-tier in just a matter of 4 months. Not to mention, he didn't have god ki. So Cabba being that strong isn't so far-fetched.

[Bullza]

The thing that's most farfetched to me is that he'd be as strong as God in his Base form but the multipliers still seem to be intact which would make Goku hundreds of times stronger than God or even thousands when you include Super Saiyan Blue and Kaioken.

So there'd be these other characters who'd be dozens of times stronger than God? I just can't see that being Toriyama's intention.

I really do think the manga has the intended power scale and that Toriyama retconned Goku out of absorbing the power of God so he could bring back Super Saiyan 1-3.

That's why that two base theory had so much traction because the anime presented Goku and Vegeta as being so strong but then it just seemed at odds with the story and some things that happened.

It should all become much more clear very soon though I hope.

[RehBeh]

I didn't say that he was strong as U7 strongest KaioShin. In the manga he spared against Kibito and pulled an easy victory but Kibito managed to through some blows at him. Again in the manga Zamasu was impressed that Shin and Kibito defeated Majin Boo until he found out that they didn't. When Kibito said that a mortal defeated Boo he took at as a joke. That's heavily implication that Zamasu(Present) is in fact weaker than Boo or at the same level at least.

The people in the manga are weaker than their anime counterparts like Hit.

There's no evidence or proof about that. Because things are different in the manga than the anime it doesn't mean they are weaker. Until a guidebook or someone like Toyataro states that the manga characters are weaker there's no concrete evidence to support that.

[Hugo Boss]

Does anyone find it odd that Cabba could get SO strong to above SSGod Goku without the Super Saiyan form? Wouldn't he have to train with Vados or someone?

Wouldn't he have to be below SSGod Goku?

Freeza was born with one of the most highest potential in the franchise and even reaching god-tier in just a matter of 4 months. Not to mention, he didn't have god ki. So Cabba being that strong isn't so far-fetched.

You are talking about two different characters. Freeza is a special case. Cabba is a Saiyan, he has no reason to be that strong, unless he learns how to use god ki. Even as a Super Saiyan he barely surpass Frost, who never underwent the same training as Freeza.

[Rubens]

Does anyone find it odd that Cabba could get SO strong to above SSGod Goku without the Super Saiyan form? Wouldn't he have to train with Vados or someone?
Wouldn't he have to be below SSGod Goku?

I find it strange too. My head canon is that since universe 6 saiyans are born without a tail, it means they are already born with the power of an oozaru/great ape therefore their potential is greater than their universe 7 counterparts. I also believe Cabba's base (and super saiyan form) was weaker than Vegeta, despite what he said about them being about even - the fight itself pointed otherwise, but that's my interpretation anyway.

Also, I wished in that arc the fighters were trained by their respective angels for the tournament because it would explain how abnormally strong they were, but I suppose that universe 6 is just naturally overpowered.

[RehBeh]

Does anyone find it odd that Cabba could get SO strong to above SSGod Goku without the Super Saiyan form? Wouldn't he have to train with Vados or someone?

Wouldn't he have to be below SSGod Goku?

Or maybe he's not and Super's power scale is a mess.

[RehBeh]

Does anyone find it odd that Cabba could get SO strong to above SSGod Goku without the Super Saiyan form? Wouldn't he have to train with Vados or someone?
Wouldn't he have to be below SSGod Goku?

I find it strange too. My head canon is that since universe 6 saiyans are born without a tail, it means they are already born with the power of an oozaru/great ape therefore their potential is greater than their universe 7 counterparts. I also believe Cabba's base (and super saiyan form) was weaker than Vegeta, despite what he said about them being about even - the fight itself pointed otherwise, but that's my interpretation anyway.

Also, I wished in that arc the fighters were trained by their respective angels for the tournament because it would explain how abnormally strong they were, but I suppose that universe 6 is just naturally overpowered.

But Piccolo gave a run for his money against Frost(a tired one but still). So either Piccolo is also at SSGod Goku level or U6 fighters are not that strong.

[LowRyder2005]

The biggest issue I take with Cabba being nearly god-tier is Vegeta stating the former was a puny fighter without Super Saiyan. Putting aside the theory about Vegeta bluffing, more or less... if anything 'cause I'd find it a rather poor bluff in itself.

[HeroR]

Showing off a greater level of power just for the sake of show off is not in-character for Goku. He is the kind that usually holds back. It's very clear Trunks is no match for SS3, but SS2 is a different matter. However you see their little skirmish, the power Trunks was hiding was revealed without a transformation. If Goku was able to block Trunks' strongest attack with just SS2 he would probably do it.

If Black could beat SS3 it seems he was playing around with SS2 Goku, no matter what kind of compliment he gives to him. Perhaps he was more interested in learning from Goku's fighting style and assimilate it to his body.

He was playing with Goku, but he was also impressed by Goku's power, hence him saying, 'so this is the power of Son Goku', with a happy smile. If he was only putting off as much energy as Trunks at his best, he would have forced Goku to put in more work since he fought that level of power for awhile.

There's no evidence or proof about that. Because things are different in the manga than the anime it doesn't mean they are weaker. Until a guidebook or someone like Toyataro states that the manga characters are weaker there's no concrete evidence to support that.

Hit got overwhelmed by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, while anime Hit adaptive and gave Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken a run for his money. So, that' proof right there that Hit in the manga is weaker than his anime counterpart.

You are talking about two different characters. Freeza is a special case. Cabba is a Saiyan, he has no reason to be that strong, unless he learns how to use god ki. Even as a Super Saiyan he barely surpass Frost, who never underwent the same training as Freeza.

Cabba is a Saiyan from a different universe who evolved differently than the U7 Saiyans. So why would his growth be exactly the same as U7's Saiyans? And I wouldn't call it 'barely' surpassed Frost given what Super Saiyan Goku did to Frost without really trying.

[Noah]

SSJ3 in Future Trunks arc shouldn't be stronger than SSJG in BoG

[Rubens]

Does anyone find it odd that Cabba could get SO strong to above SSGod Goku without the Super Saiyan form? Wouldn't he have to train with Vados or someone?
Wouldn't he have to be below SSGod Goku?

I find it strange too. My head canon is that since universe 6 saiyans are born without a tail, it means they are already born with the power of an oozaru/great ape therefore their potential is greater than their universe 7 counterparts. I also believe Cabba's base (and super saiyan form) was weaker than Vegeta, despite what he said about them being about even - the fight itself pointed otherwise, but that's my interpretation anyway.

Also, I wished in that arc the fighters were trained by their respective angels for the tournament because it would explain how abnormally strong they were, but I suppose that universe 6 is just naturally overpowered.

But Piccolo gave a run for his money against Frost(a tired one but still). So either Piccolo is also at SSGod Goku level or U6 fighters are not that strong.

Yeah, which makes me wonder if anyone there was at "ssjgod tier" at all; perhaps, and this is just me speculating, they're not that much stronger than Boo arc levels (except for Goku, Vegeta and Hit).

[ekrolo2]

So, how does golden Super Saiyan work now when Blue is Super Saiyan for a Saiyan who has the power of SSGod? I'd like a non two base theory explanation for this.

[Marlowe89]

The biggest issue I take with Cabba being nearly god-tier is Vegeta stating the former was a puny fighter without Super Saiyan. Putting aside the theory about Vegeta bluffing, more or less... if anything 'cause I'd find it a rather poor bluff in itself.

That's the thing though. It's not a bluff because there's really nothing to imply it's a bluff, just as there was nothing to suggest Beerus lied when he said he turned his power up to 10% to take out Vegeta or that he briefly feared Goku's power as a Super Saiyan God. In fact this whole tier of strength was made out to be such a big deal that it was given its own term in the series as well as its own attributes, and absolutely none of the protagonists besides Goku and Vegeta were mentioned or even hinted to be in that range at all.

People pretend that this "there's just one strong base on par with Super Saiyan God and it becomes dozens of times stronger with Super Saiyan forms" interpretation is the theory with the least amount of problems but the reality is that it actually has the most inconsistencies and holes, assumes that a myriad of characters are wrong/lying, and doesn't even seem to be what Toriyama intended for Super in the first place. It's just a weak theory and I wouldn't be surprised if it has even more things at odds with it in the upcoming tournament.

So, how does golden Super Saiyan work now when Blue is Super Saiyan for a Saiyan who has the power of SSGod? I'd like a non two base theory explanation for this.

One might reasonably assume that if Goku suppresses his power and becomes a Super Saiyan, he'll become the golden form instead of the blue form. That would be consistent with Zamasu's line in the most recent chapter where he infers that a Super Saiyan's hair changes color when it surpasses a Super Saiyan God.

Of course, suppressed vs. non-suppressed is also a kind of "two base theory", but not a terribly literal one.

[ekrolo2]

So, how does golden Super Saiyan work now when Blue is Super Saiyan for a Saiyan who has the power of SSGod? I'd like a non two base theory explanation for this.

One might reasonably assume that if Goku suppresses his power and becomes a Super Saiyan, he'll become the golden form instead of the blue form. That would be consistent with Zamasu's line in the most recent chapter where he infers that a Super Saiyan's hair changes color when it surpasses a Super Saiyan God.

Of course, suppressed vs. non-suppressed is also a kind of "two base theory", but not a terribly literal one.

I was speaking more for the anime, the manga goes the sensible route and just treats God and Blue as strong transformations separate from the golden line. The anime is why ask for a distinction between the golden SS and the Blue one, they're both forms of Super Saiyan for a Saiyan who has the power of SSGod.

[RehBeh]

[
But Piccolo gave a run for his money against Frost(a tired one but still). So either Piccolo is also at SSGod Goku level or U6 fighters are not that strong.

Yeah, which makes me wonder if anyone there was at "ssjgod tier" at all; perhaps, and this is just me speculating, they're not that much stronger than Boo arc levels (except for Goku, Vegeta and Hit).

This is what i believe. I bet that in the U6 they will reach god level( at least Frost may achieve Gold/Ultimate evolution but that's just speculation).

[RehBeh]

There's no evidence or proof about that. Because things are different in the manga than the anime it doesn't mean they are weaker. Until a guidebook or someone like Toyataro states that the manga characters are weaker there's no concrete evidence to support that.

Hit got overwhelmed by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, while anime Hit adaptive and gave Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan/Kaioken a run for his money. So, that' proof right there that Hit in the manga is weaker than his anime counterpart.

Hit wasn't overwhelmed, in fact he dodged Goku's final attack and Goku admitted that Hit is stronger.