Is Akira Toriyama trying to make us hate Goku?

[Totamo]

If I recall, his line was 'stop destroying stuff' in the Japanese version.

It was don't overestimate me

Beerus unleashes a barrage of rapid fire ki attacks that Goku barely manages to dodge. Goku comes around Beerus’s blind side and lands a hard punch to the gut. Beerus is really angry now, and in his rage he fires off countless ki blasts in every direction. Goku tries to dodge all of the boulders falling from above, but gets caught up by the massive amount of them. Goku suddenly bursts out as he transforms into a Super Saiyan, yelling at Beerus that destruction is not something one should take pleasure in.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/battle- ... /synopsis/

I'm fairly positive Goku wasn't telling Beerus to not underestimate him.

Wow, must have been my sub then because the one i watched said don't overestimate me

[Draconic]

First of all I don't think it has anything to do with Toriyama. As much as fans have no fucking clue what Goku's character is, neither do most of the non-Toriyama writers. However, I'll say that this topic has blown up a lot for the past couple of episodes even though it's probably Goku's best synthesis: A naive innocent guy who sees the best in people (in this case Zeno), but also a battle junkie whose only driving point is the value of the fight, as opposed to the value of life. This is pretty common in martial arts stories, or even eastern arts, including anime. To the western sensibilites, especially in the superhero age, it's unfathomable to some that with great power doesn't necessarily come great resposability. This doesn't make Goku less of a hero no less, because he isn't one to stand for injustice or ignore people in need, but he also doesn't go out of his way to help people. The point of the series is to work hard and strive to be the best fighter and Goku embodies it. He worked his ass off to get where he is and can damn well use his powers the way he wants. It's his "purity" and also his "poison".

I mean, if you take Goku to be your average good guy, like it seems some do, none of his actions troughout the series make any sense at all, especially once he passes his childhood age. While a kid, even though his characteristics are pretty much the same, he's usually dragged into action: first by Bulma, then the Red Ribbon Army, by Piccolo's invasion. Of course, all those moments are interlaced with the World Tournaments so the reader/watcher doesn't lose sight of Goku's goals, in the end achieving both saving the world and being the best around in defeating Piccolo once and for all. But that's where the shift happens. He lets his enemy go so he can still have someone to challenge him and after the scope of his world is expanded with the arrival of the Saiyans and the Afterlife, he is always an active part of setting stuff in motion: disregards Kaio's warning not to fight Freeza, disregards Bulma's advice of stopping Gero before it's too late, disregards Kaioshin's warning not to fight Vegeta and release Buu and now disregards Beerus about not dabbling with Zeno. All for the fight, with zero interest about the casualties.

The typical superhero story most seem to judge a hero goes pretty much the same way: passivity or inabillity to stop a danger leads to the hero swearing to stop all dangers. Goku is literally the opposite. He has the ability to stop dangers, but choses passivity in order to challenge them. With him it's not about the end, but the journey to the end. Sometimes it ends up fine (Buu, Piccolo, Beerus), sometimes it doesn't (Freeza, Cell).
It's what makes him interesting and if people find him unlikeable because they where acquainted with a different interpretation of the character then tough luck. It's not going to change now.
However, that's not to say Super's portrayal of those characteristics is very good, cause it's not. Like others have said, it's streamlined, poorly explored and exaggerated to great proportions, but it's still closer to the true version of Goku than a lot of the stuff that came before.

The big problems I have with Super's portrayal are the downright out of character stupid moments, like not realizing he's not actually fighting Monaka, falling on his ass, forgetting the Senzu while taking a shit etc. Yes, Goku is not the most well mannered, well educated guy in the world and neither the brightest tool in the shed, but he's not a fucking retard. It's cheap comedy and it's not that funny either. But I can give a pass to the flanderization because Super is also intended for a new audience and I think it's better at least they be subjected to Goku's true personality, even if greatly overblown.

[gohan_black]

i still dont understand how goku can ride the nimbus. he is a little prick who would sacrifice the entire universe just to have fun.

[TheMikado]

That's basically what I'm getting at. If the audience who arent accustomed to this side of Goku have him thrust at them, it may turn them off from the Dragonball franchise in general.
Saying oh well to a large part of your audience is never a good thing.

What about those who weren't accustomed to "Hero Goku"? I don't think that version (Toei or Funi) turned anyone off from the franchise despite some of the complaints it has gotten over the years.

If we're talking about casual viewers, then I have a hard time imagining most of them caring very much. I realize my group of friends doesn't represent the whole casual viewership, but they are as casual as you can get, and for the most part don't really care that Goku is being the way he is. They noticed, sure, but it's not something that ruins anything for them. Which I see as fine, because aside from a few moments here and there Goku is still largely the same character.

Your friends have to be a bit more than casual. Super only recently got rights to steam and just really recently had a dub produced. Your average casual isn't watching hacked Japanese streams, heck your average casual isn't even watching Crunchyroll. They're waiting for the funimation dub to air on toonami because they don't like subs and that's only just started. The fraction of the casual fan base who would actually watch Dragonball subbed is very small compared to the remainder of the casual base.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The big problems I have with Super's portrayal are the downright out of character stupid moments, like not realizing he's not actually fighting Monaka, falling on his ass, forgetting the Senzu while taking a shit etc. Yes, Goku is not the most well mannered, well educated guy in the world and neither the brightest tool in the shed, but he's not a fucking retard. It's cheap comedy and it's not that funny either. But I can give a pass to the flanderization because Super is also intended for a new audience and I think it's better at least they be subjected to Goku's true personality, even if greatly overblown.

How is someone falling on their ass OoC? Seriously you people are really stretching now. Also forget things when you put them down for a second to do something is quite common actually. I highly doubt anyone has gone throughout life without doing that. Also Goku forgot Senzu's yeah well in the Buu arc he forgot his sons when the Earth blew up so....

[Boo Machine]

That's basically what I'm getting at. If the audience who arent accustomed to this side of Goku have him thrust at them, it may turn them off from the Dragonball franchise in general.
Saying oh well to a large part of your audience is never a good thing.

What about those who weren't accustomed to "Hero Goku"? I don't think that version (Toei or Funi) turned anyone off from the franchise despite some of the complaints it has gotten over the years.

If we're talking about casual viewers, then I have a hard time imagining most of them caring very much. I realize my group of friends doesn't represent the whole casual viewership, but they are as casual as you can get, and for the most part don't really care that Goku is being the way he is. They noticed, sure, but it's not something that ruins anything for them. Which I see as fine, because aside from a few moments here and there Goku is still largely the same character.

Your friends have to be a bit more than casual. Super only recently got rights to steam and just really recently had a dub produced. Your average casual isn't watching hacked Japanese streams, heck your average casual isn't even watching Crunchyroll. They're waiting for the funimation dub to air on toonami because they don't like subs and that's only just started. The fraction of the casual fan base who would actually watch Dragonball subbed is very small compared to the remainder of the casual base.

Well I guess it depends what you consider a casual viewer. My friends watch it on crunchy roll whenever they have the time. Are you only a casual when you wait for it on TV or when you just choose to watch it whenever? Why wouldn't a casual viewer seek out something they'd like to watch? It's pretty much what people do with Netflix these days and seeking for something to watch, in this case super, is pretty much the extent of what they seek out in modern dragon ball. Otherwise they don't really care. (Manga, games, etc..)

I'm not entirely sure why the language you choose to watch it in determines if one is a casual viewer or not. They like dragonball. They don't see the point in waiting and have no problem with subs. In fact I feel like holding out for you're prefferd version of the show would make you less casual.

[DBZAOTA482]

This is Super... where everyone who isn't Vegeta, Bulma, Krillin, and the kids are either flanderized archetypes (Goku, Chi-Chi, Mr. Boo) or shells of their former shelves (Gohan, Videl).

[TheMikado]

What about those who weren't accustomed to "Hero Goku"? I don't think that version (Toei or Funi) turned anyone off from the franchise despite some of the complaints it has gotten over the years.

If we're talking about casual viewers, then I have a hard time imagining most of them caring very much. I realize my group of friends doesn't represent the whole casual viewership, but they are as casual as you can get, and for the most part don't really care that Goku is being the way he is. They noticed, sure, but it's not something that ruins anything for them. Which I see as fine, because aside from a few moments here and there Goku is still largely the same character.

Your friends have to be a bit more than casual. Super only recently got rights to steam and just really recently had a dub produced. Your average casual isn't watching hacked Japanese streams, heck your average casual isn't even watching Crunchyroll. They're waiting for the funimation dub to air on toonami because they don't like subs and that's only just started. The fraction of the casual fan base who would actually watch Dragonball subbed is very small compared to the remainder of the casual base.

Well I guess it depends what you consider a casual viewer. My friends watched it on crunchy roll whenever they had the time. Are you only a casual when you wait for it on TV or when you just choose to watch it whenever? Why wouldn't a casual viewer seek out something they'd like to watch. It's pretty much what people do with Netflix these days and seeking for something to watch, in this case super, is pretty much the extent of what they seek out in modern dragon ball. Otherwise they don't really care. (Manga, games, etc..)

I'm not entirely sure why the language you choose to watch it in determines if one is a casual viewer or not.

I'm saying the conditions described do not represent a typical casual viewer for a series as large as Dragonball. If you had to estimate, what percentage of the English speaking audience watched the original subbed versions of DBZ? My point is that by and large truly casual viewership is not represented through subbed anime on Crunchyroll.

[Boo Machine]

Your friends have to be a bit more than casual. Super only recently got rights to steam and just really recently had a dub produced. Your average casual isn't watching hacked Japanese streams, heck your average casual isn't even watching Crunchyroll. They're waiting for the funimation dub to air on toonami because they don't like subs and that's only just started. The fraction of the casual fan base who would actually watch Dragonball subbed is very small compared to the remainder of the casual base.

Well I guess it depends what you consider a casual viewer. My friends watched it on crunchy roll whenever they had the time. Are you only a casual when you wait for it on TV or when you just choose to watch it whenever? Why wouldn't a casual viewer seek out something they'd like to watch. It's pretty much what people do with Netflix these days and seeking for something to watch, in this case super, is pretty much the extent of what they seek out in modern dragon ball. Otherwise they don't really care. (Manga, games, etc..)

I'm not entirely sure why the language you choose to watch it in determines if one is a casual viewer or not.

I'm saying the conditions described do not represent a typical casual viewer for a series as large as Dragonball. If you had to estimate, what percentage of the English speaking audience watched the original subbed versions of DBZ? My point is that by and large truly casual viewership is not represented through subbed anime on Crunchyroll.

There are conditions to being a casual or non casual viewer? I'm curious on what those would be, actually. Obviously most english speakers saw the english version first. However I don't see why that means seeking out super on crunchyroll would make them anymore or less casual. Crunchyroll is a streaming service like anything else out there. Me seeking out "Orange is the new black" to watch doesn't make a hardcore fan. They like the series, they going to watch it regardless of language, provided there are subs so they can follow. I realize the casual viewer ship is not represented on crunchy roll. That's why I pointed out that my group of friends don't represent the casual viewership before I gave the very small example. But Crunchy Roll does make it easier for casual fans of anime to watch anime.
Dragonball Super or otherwise.

[FlpShimizu]

i still dont understand how goku can ride the nimbus. he is a little prick who would sacrifice the entire universe just to have fun.

We don't know that. Zeno mentioned the tournament and that's it, there were no consequences until now. In Goku's mind, he would just get to fight strong people from other universes in a normal tournament format, like all the other tournaments he participated before. In those cases, nobody ever had to die if they lost.

Had Zeno told everybody at the end of Champa's tournament that the losers would die, Goku might not have been so eager to agree. Of course, we don't know, and maybe never will. The way things are now, the only option is to give it his best and win the tournament. Gohan asked what the hell would Goku do if Zeno actually destroyed something, to which he replied he wouldn't know until it happened. Goku doesn't plan stuff, he just acts.

As others have already pointed out, Goku tends to believe people won't always do bad things. It happened more than once, even biting him in the ass in Raditz's case. He is pure hearted, willing to give even Freeza a chance, a being that killed his friend mere minutes (lol) before. Zeno should not be any different, maybe he won't do something as bad as erasing an universe like in Trunks' timeline, right? Well, Goku was wrong.

[Boo Machine]

i still dont understand how goku can ride the nimbus. he is a little prick who would sacrifice the entire universe just to have fun.

It's not like Goku traded his Universe for a quick fix of adrenaline. He prompted a competition not knowing the people running the competition would make it more or less a death match. Not saying goku doesn't share some of the blame but Goku had no impure intention with his request.

[TheMathemagician]

i still dont understand how goku can ride the nimbus. he is a little prick who would sacrifice the entire universe just to have fun.

It's not like Goku traded his Universe for a quick fix of adrenaline. He prompted a competition not knowing the people running the competition would make it more or less a death match. Not saying goku doesn't share some of the blame but Goku had no impure intention with his request.

This. It's amazing people are actually questioning on why he can still ride Kinto'un when nothing he's done makes him incapable of doing so. He literally only requested for (in his mind) a harmless tournament to fight strong guys.

[kinisking]

Yes, it seems like he's going out of his way to make him as dislikable as possible.

He made selfish and stupid choices in the manga and original anime but he wasn't unlikable like he is now. you could tell that he at least cared about others but in Super ? nope.

In terms of the Toei and Funimation making him into more of a hero, I'm really happy they did that. it's the best thing they could've done with him cause if he was written as bad as he is now then I don't think I and others would like him as much as we don.

That's basically what I'm getting at. If the audience who arent accustomed to this side of Goku have him thrust at them, it may turn them off from the Dragonball franchise in general.
Saying oh well to a large part of your audience is never a good thing.

I don't think the casual audience cares half as much about the consistent characterization. Especially when the popular way to think about Goku now is that he's stupid and a bad father because of TFS and memes.

[TheMikado]

^ I think everyone takes that as a parody, which is really going to throw those people for a loop when the parody becomes the character

[Totamo]

^ I think everyone takes that as a parody, which is really going to throw those people for a loop when the parody becomes the character

No, some take tfs as their personal canon.

They are people who see that goku as the real goku.

Kaiserneko has literally talked about this

[Lord Beerus]

To be honest, I really don't see how Goku in Super is all that different from what we've seen in DB or Z. Goku at his core is a battle loving manchild, who thrives off of a challange. While the anime adaption of the Z portion of the manga certainly adds more on Goku's mindset the make his seem like less of battle maniac, in the manga, he's a full blown blood knight that doesn't show that many other social skills. Goku has always been about training, fighting and testing himself. Goku constantly thinking those things is Goku's core characteristic, especially as he gets older. I mean, Goku certainly has some other thoughts, but his main track of thought is "Who can I fight next?" or "How can I get stronger?". Super just follows that trend. Hell, if anything, Super has shown that Goku can be a well functioning member of society when he isn't throwing fisticuffs.

To play devil's advocate, when you have a series that has episodes written by many different writers, there are bound to be some different and specific character traits they will either exaggerate or downplay for the purpose of the plot or any given particular scenario for an episode they write. The range of Goku's selfishness and naivety in the original series is handled well for the most. And in Super, it's fine, but can get a bit too exaggerated and just outright mishandled. I mean, Goku was outright fucking around with Beerus, in regards to even talking to Zeno, knowing the potential dangers it could bring, but he still did it anyway. And ironically, I kinda like that. I think Goku acting in such a flippant manner is what makes him such a unique and endearing character. He never really strays for what he wants deep down, and that's a challenge. Even if the path to that challenge endangers the lives of billions of people. I also really adore it when behaves with such a morally ambiguous attitude because it open avenues in the story that wouldn't be possible if Goku acted like your usual stand-up superhero-esque kind of protagonist.

So for the most part, Toei's portrayal of Goku as whole in Super has been appropriate with just a few instances of the handling of the character that make me go "huh?". And nobody, especially Akira Toriyama, is trying to get us to hate the character.

[TheMikado]

^ and that's the whole point. Goku is fine for the most part, except for the exaggeration which are so off putting.

Specially that Beerus scene where it was incredibly tense to the point where Beerus threatened to erase Goku then and there and Goku has the serious look on his face and ... he turns it into a joke and craps on what Beerus was just saying. That's the problem, we have a super serious exchange which is taken for a joke and when Gokubfinds out the ramifications of not listening and basically joking around the gravity of what he's done doesn't hit him as hard as it should. This is different then him making a simple miscalculation this is him actively being a dick, causing a situation where people, and a whole lot of them, are going to die no matter what.

Literally the only thing I wanted from Goku was acknowledgement that he messed up big time and 11 universes are going to be destroyed because he he didn't take things seriously and wanted to joke around. That's literally all I'm asking for is that real epiphany.

[EXBadguy]

I disagree with people who say that Goku was always selfish throughout the series. That may be true, but at least there were some moments where he cared about others (e.g. Goku's sacrifice in Cell saga) and made himself aware of what is at stake and gained pride in his bloodline(e.g. his character development in the Frieza saga). In Super, they just potray him to be as retarded as possible with no common sense whatsoever.

And the fact that Goku never kissed almost ruined some of his character qualities for me. I swear to god.

[TheMathemagician]

I disagree with people who say that Goku was always selfish throughout the series. That may be true, but at least there were some moments where he cared about others (e.g. Goku's sacrifice in Cell saga) and made himself aware of what is at stake and gained pride in his bloodline(e.g. his character development in the Frieza saga). In Super, they just potray him to be as retarded as possible with no common sense whatsoever.

And the fact that Goku never kissed almost ruined some of his character qualities for me. I swear to god.

Again, there was no caring with sparing Vegeta. Zero sense or logic in sparing Vegeta's life. He really isn't any different besides some of his aspects being exaggerated, which can piss people off.

[DBZAOTA482]

I disagree with people who say that Goku was always selfish throughout the series. That may be true, but at least there were some moments where he cared about others (e.g. Goku's sacrifice in Cell saga) and made himself aware of what is at stake and gained pride in his bloodline(e.g. his character development in the Frieza saga). In Super, they just potray him to be as retarded as possible with no common sense whatsoever.

And the fact that Goku never kissed almost ruined some of his character qualities for me. I swear to god.

Again, there was no caring with sparing Vegeta. Zero sense or logic in sparing Vegeta's life. He really isn't any different besides some of his aspects being exaggerated, which can piss people off.

He wasn't "not caring"... he acknowledged it was a selfish decision and evenot regretted it later on.