Super and SSJ2

[Lord Frieza]

I was just wondering how people felt about whats been done with SS2 in Super.

While the form was the highlight of the Android Saga's cluster f##k of SS forms for years and even after the arc its been the most mishandled and over looked. Despite the form being most heavenly associated with Gohan, post the Android arc he's used it officially once.....and it was just to show of its power and it had a debatable appearance in a Broly movie. Also is that was not a big enough slap in the face for Gohan's use of the form, he never mastered it, he dropped it for Ultimate and in both GT and Super he lost the form completely due to lack of training. While Goku and Vegeta both got the form in the Buu arc, with the arms race of power ups that occur in that arc and later stories the form was completely over shadowed...although thankfully not made irrelevant then. Gotenks skipped the form entirely and has never used it....despite the fact it would be much more useful then him playing around as a SS then going SS3 and burning through his fusion. GT seems to have forgotten the form ever existed and we were lucky if the movies even got the hair right let alone put the lightning in (oh the debates that has spawned). Even with Vegeta, the guy who was, for me, the second most iconic user of the form never really got a stand out moment with it.....probably because its thunder was stolen by his Majin transformation (I do not count his ass kicking from Kid Buu as an iconic moment from the form for Vegeta, thats just an awesome moment for Vegeta). While its a form dearly loved by fans its more often then not been over shadowed by its counter parts over the years.

Then Super comes along....first of its a breath of fresh air just to have it pointed out by Goku as well as see him use it a bit again after all these years and for Vegeta to final get an awesome power up moment with it when Bulma is hurt.

But by far the best thing for this form was Trunks getting it. In both the manga and the anime Trunks is shown to have done something none else has...he's mastered it and on top of that he has been able to find a unique (if poorly explained) transformation through it.

I can't help but feel that Trunks has made the form his own, mastering and retaliated it for both the story and us fans. Hell I even like Super Saiyan Rage inspite of everything.

If there is a down side to all this....well SS3 is being made to look like a very cool looking but not so useful transformation.

[Grimlock]

What do you mean by "debatable"? Gohan was clearly Super Saiyan 2 during his fight against Broly, you can see his long bang without the strand of hair, while you can see both of them, the smaller bang and strand of hair when he is firing Kamehameha along with Goten, indicating that is his Super Saiyan. That is how you make a difference between his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2. There is no debate about it.

Here's Super Saiyan Gohan.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Here's Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Here's the difference in the manga.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Super Saiyan 2 makes some brief appearances in Dragon Ball GT all of them by Goku, so they didn't forget it. If I remember correctly, Super Saiyan 2 has a small entry in one of the Perfect Files guide as well.

As for Dragon Ball Super, I'm glad how they used Super Saiyan 2, the form needed it. Pretty happy that Trunks is also able to transform into it (and too bad Super Saiyan Rage exists, Super Saiyan 2 should be the strongest form for everyone). I hope in the Universe Survival saga both Goku and Vegeta use that form before inevitably going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Gotenks should use it as well for a change.

Super Saiyan 2 should live on in games... Especially those which is always playing with forms (looking at you, Dragon Ball Heroes! )

[Scarlet Spider]

As the biggest SSJ2 fanboy, I was damn happy with how much love the form got in Super. I love the form. I love the super spikey hair and sharp eyes. The aggressiveness. It's pretty great.

[IKevinX]

Super was a joy for showcasing the SSJ2 and SSJ3 as much as it did.
I was damn glad that Toriyama brought it back.

I hope it continues to come back.
So many fighters in this arc, someone must also be a SSJ2 tier. Heck, even Gohan could somehow use it next episode.

[Nejishiki]

Goku's Super Saiyan 2 is credited for one of Dragon Ball GT's opening.

Super Saiyan 2
A type of warrior who possess power surpassing Super Saiyan 1 in power, speed, and all other points!! However, it seems to not provide a rapid increase, so after Goku awakened to Super Saiyan 3, he would often skip over 2 and transform straight from 1 to 3!! In visual terms as well there’s not all the much different from 1, these differences consisting of the sparks in the aura and the hair on the head standing up even straighter than before!

Son Goku
Goku hardly ever transforms into Super Saiyan 2!! The only times being such as when he fought Vegeta after Vegeta was manipulated by the wizard Babidi. Even in “GT”, he only transforms in one cut (picture) in the new opening.
[picture of SSj2 Gohan] Gohan was the first to transform into Super Saiyan 2, during his battle with Cell!!

[Lord Frieza]

snip

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I think you missed my point here and maybe I need to explain it better.

First off would you say Goku ever went SS2 in GT unless it was pointed out? I do not count going powering up SS3 a proper use of the form and until after you told me I didn't even realize Goku had ever used the form in series. I and many others can hardly be blamed for not noticing the brief burst of SS2 against Rildo.

Maybe forgot was the wrong word....its worse then that, the form was almost completely ignored with a little lip service in a guide book.

As for Broly it is debatable...because it has been. It been by far the single most argued topic about that movie or one of the most for any of the original 13. I'm with you, It's clearly SS2 but its not made clear enough for the majority.

Dose this make my position more clear?

[Alruneia]

I'm very happy to see SSJ2 in use, as I've always been a fan of the form. It might be my favourite... after good ol' SSJ1, that is. I was especially happy to see



in the Goku vs. Black battle in the beginning of the Zamasu arc. The fact that they had messed up the SSJ2 hair in the Goku vs Trunks sparring session right before it made seeing proper SSJ2 Goku even better. The fact that Trunks has SSJ2 is also really good, because it makes sense that he has it (he needs to protect the future so he trains, he saw Gohan do it so he knows it exists). I'm not terribly happy with how it looks in the anime, though. The manga hairstyle is vastly superior.

[Grimlock]

First off would you say Goku ever went SS2 in GT unless it was pointed out? I do not count going powering up SS3 a proper use of the form and until after you told me I didn't even realize Goku had ever used the form in series. I and many others can hardly be blamed for not noticing the brief burst of SS2 against Rildo.

Yes. We do not need someone to point out when Goku used Super Saiyan 2. We know how he looks like when he's using that form, the differences between his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are the most distinguishable so we can always tell when he's using Super Saiyan 2 (except when Toei makes his hair wrong, but there's context for that).

As for Broly it is debatable...because it has been. It been by far the single most argued topic about that movie or one of the most for any of the original 13. I'm with you, It's clearly SS2 but its not made clear enough for the majority.

Then I'd say they were all nonsense and useless debates, because there are evidences. It's all a matter of paying attention to the details.

[Lord Frieza]

Yes. We do not need someone to point out when Goku used Super Saiyan 2. We know how he looks like when he's using that form, the differences between his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are the most distinguishable so we can always tell when he's using Super Saiyan 2 (except when Toei makes his hair wrong, but there's context for that).

Then I applauder your perceptiveness and that of other, I'm being honest here, but it was never that obvious to me when in GT.



This is the only point in GT were you can categorically say Goku's hair looks like it should as a SS2 from what I've seen and remember. This is done as he powers up to deflect an attack from Rildo and then he seems to power down for no reason. It really just looks like he's powering up to deflect the attack, not transforming as he's right back to SS after its over. During his fight with Super 17 his hair dose have moments were it looks SS2ish but its inconsistent and more often then not looks plain old SS.

Can you see were I'm coming from here, I'm not saying your wrong and I'm taking on board what your saying I just want you to see it from my side.

Infact coming onto the site and meeting people like yourself has help me refine my knowledge and understand of DB and made me appreciate it more. So an off topic thank you to yourself and everyone else.

Then I'd say they were all nonsense and useless debates, because there are evidences. It's all a matter of paying attention to the details.

Oh you would not believe it, I've lost count of the online debates and youtube videos going on and on about this subject over the years.....just big endless cycles of nonsense .

[ekrolo2]

I'm glad fans of SS2 are liking the love its been getting but frankly, it's getting on my tits when you've got it apparently being powerful enough to boost you to Vegetto's various stages of power depending on which version of Super you mean. Then there's Ikari which just.... piss off, seriously.

I'd like to know why they don't just give guys like Vegeta and Trunks SS3 if they want them to power up. What the hell even is the point of SS3 existing if 2 can apparently get increased to a multiplier dozens of times above 3s.

[dbs fanboy]

I'm glad fans of SS2 are liking the love its been getting but frankly, it's getting on my tits when you've got it apparently being powerful enough to boost you to Vegetto's various stages of power depending on which version of Super you mean. Then there's Ikari which just.... piss off, seriously.

I'd like to know why they don't just give guys like Vegeta and Trunks SS3 if they want them to power up. What the hell even is the point of SS3 existing if 2 can apparently get increased to a multiplier dozens of times above 3s.

Twist, ssj3 is just ssj 2 with longer hair.

[ArchedThunder]

I'm glad fans of SS2 are liking the love its been getting but frankly, it's getting on my tits when you've got it apparently being powerful enough to boost you to Vegetto's various stages of power depending on which version of Super you mean. Then there's Ikari which just.... piss off, seriously.

What are you even talking about?

[ekrolo2]

I'm glad fans of SS2 are liking the love its been getting but frankly, it's getting on my tits when you've got it apparently being powerful enough to boost you to Vegetto's various stages of power depending on which version of Super you mean. Then there's Ikari which just.... piss off, seriously.

What are you even talking about?

What do you mean what I'm talking about? Between Trunks and Vegeta, SS2 can apparently make you hundreds of times more powerful, certainly more than SS3 because... reasons. Why not just give the two of them SS3 if they want to show how much stronger they are?

[gofishus]

I'm glad fans of SS2 are liking the love its been getting but frankly, it's getting on my tits when you've got it apparently being powerful enough to boost you to Vegetto's various stages of power depending on which version of Super you mean. Then there's Ikari which just.... piss off, seriously.

What are you even talking about?

What do you mean what I'm talking about? Between Trunks and Vegeta, SS2 can apparently make you hundreds of times more powerful, certainly more than SS3 because... reasons. Why not just give the two of them SS3 if they want to show how much stronger they are?

SSJ2 actually has many advantages over SSJ3 most notably ki consumption. SSJ3 uses up way too much ki too fast this is why SSJ2 is Goku's preferred SSJ form (when he's not using SSJB that is)

[ekrolo2]

What are you even talking about?

What do you mean what I'm talking about? Between Trunks and Vegeta, SS2 can apparently make you hundreds of times more powerful, certainly more than SS3 because... reasons. Why not just give the two of them SS3 if they want to show how much stronger they are?

SSJ2 actually has many advantages over SSJ3 most notably ki consumption. SSJ3 uses up way too much ki too fast this is why SSJ2 is Goku's preferred SSJ form (when he's not using SSJB that is)

Based on what? He's used it four times in Super, once against Beerus and it did nothing, once more to test Trunks' strength (which 3 did too), once to fight Black (and that's only to make things more interesting, even Trunks says Goku would've stomped Black's shit if he used 3) and once more to test Zamasu based on his previous power knowledge of Black and Trunks.

[ChronoTwigger]

The reply is...
At the very moment, DBZ was all about adding stuff. Stuff over stuff.
Mystic, fusion, SSJ3, complete, merge, poppy, monsters, majinguys, ...
SSJ2 didn't lasted relatively so long until the new thing came out. And instantly faced something too hard to beat in that state (while 1 and 3 were "resolutive").
Anyway, you already knew something bigger had to come...
In GT wasn't quoted: too much SSJ4 hype.
Not much movies to have SSJ2 shine before fusion became the new trend.
And so...

Now, in Super, you have the whole time to show it once in a while. The new thing is already there (Blue), you know the cap.
(The real MIA of DB is SSGod (red) that lasted literally a bunch of episodes to be forgotten (I could said:erased forever) in the anime.)

[gofishus]

What do you mean what I'm talking about? Between Trunks and Vegeta, SS2 can apparently make you hundreds of times more powerful, certainly more than SS3 because... reasons. Why not just give the two of them SS3 if they want to show how much stronger they are?

SSJ2 actually has many advantages over SSJ3 most notably ki consumption. SSJ3 uses up way too much ki too fast this is why SSJ2 is Goku's preferred SSJ form (when he's not using SSJB that is)

Based on what? He's used it four times in Super, once against Beerus and it did nothing, once more to test Trunks' strength (which 3 did too), once to fight Black (and that's only to make things more interesting, even Trunks says Goku would've stomped Black's shit if he used 3) and once more to test Zamasu based on his previous power knowledge of Black and Trunks.

Yes. That's more than he used SSJ1 and SSJ3 in Super.

[KingKaash]

I hated Future Trunks SSJ2 look. It looks no different than his SSJ1 form. His hair should've really spiked up but it didn't. Aside from Gohan, that form has really lacked differentiation from SSJ1 for Goku, Vegeta & now Future Trunks and it's kinda sad. I mean Gotenks even skipped the form all together when he went SSJ3. It's the least cool of the three (or four) SSJ forms sadly

[Grimlock]

I hated Future Trunks SSJ2 look. It looks no different than his SSJ1 form. His hair should've really spiked up but it didn't. Aside from Gohan, that form has really lacked differentiation from SSJ1 for Goku, Vegeta & now Future Trunks and it's kinda sad. I mean Gotenks even skipped the form all together when he went SSJ3. It's the least cool of the three (or four) SSJ forms sadly

Super Saiyan 2 doesn't need to have a big difference from Super Saiyan, that's exactly why the form is the best, it has the "the less the more" philosophy and sparks make it better than Super Saiyan. Although I agree Toei screwed up his Super Saiyan 2, even Dimps knows how to make a difference from his Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 (see Dragon Ball Heroes) correctly.

Gotenks is seen as Super Saiyan 2 for one frame twice, one in Dragon Ball Z (before transforming into Super Saiyan 3 for the first time) and one in Dragon Ball Super (before transforming into Super Saiyan 3 in that Monaka thing).

[Octorockandroll]

Highlights of Super Saiyan 2 are really just limited to Gohan vs Cell and Goku vs. Vegeta (in the buu arc of course) that's very few examples but at least they were some of the best shonen fight scenes ever put to animation so it's not like it didn't have time to shine. However since Z ended it's not been given any decent treatment at all. GT only featured the form for a few seconds in a blink and you'll miss it moment when Goku fought Rildo and both it and Super show Gohan never using the form even in situations where he really should be able to.

We did at least get one very cool moment from Super Saiyan 2 in the BoG movie where Vegeta uses the form to, in a fit of rage against Beerus, surpass Goku and actually do a little damage to the Haikaishin, which shows us that the form has a lot more potential than the show gives it credit for. Sadly this is really the last time we see a good SS2 moment in the franchise. The tv anime version of Vegeta's rage moment was underwhelming and we all know about Gohan's deal with never using the form. However, there's one aspect of the mistreatment of SS2 that nobody seems to be mentioning and that's Future Trunks' use of the form. In super it is revealed Trunks trained himself to use the form in preparation to fight Dabura and Babidi, but his SS2 design is phenomenally lazy. No bulking up, no new hairstyle, it's literally just his regular super saiyan look except with lightning sometimes. This pisses me off because not only does it make the achievement look much less impressive than it should, but they already had a SS2 design for Future Trunks. It wasn't a cannon one, but there's no harm in making a non-cannon thing cannon if it doesn't create plotholes or anything. It's better than nothing, which is close to what we ended up getting.

Edit: apparently I just forgot there was more than 5 posts here and to check those before saying that nobody had brought up the Trunks thing. My bad.